almost time to drywall.... walls or ceiling 1st? - Kinetics Isomax clips - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 02-13-2008, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

Just a quick question.... My framing is 95% done, and now working on electrical and insulating with Roxul Safe n Sound.


I was looking at my framing, and realized that with the Isomax clips, hat channeling, DD and GG, I won't be able to screw the drywall effectively to the walls (i.e. the finished ceiling will be lower than the top plate of my walls after the 2nd layer of drywall) if I do the ceiling 1st.

Do most people do the 1st layer of drywall on the walls 1st and then do the the ceiling? And repeat for the 2nd layer?

Thanks,
P

PS. The Isomax clips are only going into the ceiling.... DD and GG are on the walls and the ceiling. My interior walls are a combo of staggered stud and one short section of double wall, with a 1" airgap in between.
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post #2 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 12:16 AM
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I'm not a HT guru, but am pretty familliar with drywall construction. I like to put my drywall on the ceiling first so the drywall on the wall kind of acts as a security blanket to hold up what's on the ceiling, but in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't make much difference. When I don't have access to a drywall jack I'll sometimes install the drywall on the walls leaving a gap at the top for the ceiling drywall; this makes it easier to install the ceiling drywall as you'll have a little ledge to rest the room edge pieces on.

You should be fine just putting both layers on the walls and then do the ceiling afterwards; just make sure you use plenty of screws on the ceiling drywall and I would also recommend gluing the first layer to the joists. (Glueing drywall to studs/joists may be discouraged for HT use, but I don't see why it would be. Glueing also will prevent any rattles between the drywall and studs/joists.) Also, be extra careful not to drive the screws too deep on the ceiling drywall; if you break the exterior paper on the drywall by driving the screw to deep, that screw will have virtually zero holding power.

In hindsight, it would have been nice if you would have doubled your top plate boards giving you 3" to work with instead of 1.5". If you have any scraps of 2x4 or extra 2x4's you could screw them to the bottom of the top plate between the studs. That should give you enough to screw the wall drywall to after the ceiling is installed.

Good luck.
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post #3 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 03:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bajafx4 View Post

You should be fine just putting both layers on the walls and then do the ceiling afterwards; just make sure you use plenty of screws on the ceiling drywall and I would also recommend gluing the first layer to the joists. (Glueing drywall to studs/joists may be discouraged for HT use, but I don't see why it would be. Glueing also will prevent any rattles between the drywall and studs/joists.)

He's using RSIC on the ceiling, which means that the drywall won't be able to be glued to the joists. Also, that would basically ruin the reason for using clips in the first place, which is to make a floating ceiling. By gluing the drywall to joists, there would be a sound transmission path right around the floating part of the ceiling, thereby negating any effectiveness from the clips.

Bob
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post #4 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 04:50 AM
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In the pro book I have on drywalling they actually recommend a technique of ceiling first then wall with NEITHER THE WALL OR CEILING BEING SCREWED WITHIN 8 INCHES of where the two meet.

The reason is it allows the two to float a bit and that it reduces future cracking. There is really no need to feel compusive about putting screws along the top or bottom edges of a piece on the wall. Also if you are doing DD ceiling then in reality none of the edge have to fall on a channel suport. The adjacent layer lines up the edges.
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post #5 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 05:30 AM
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Kinetics will ask that the ceiling drywall (both layers) be 1/4" from the wall drywall, then the 1/4" gap to be filled with sealant. The reason for the 1/4" is to give the ceiling every opportunity to flex. If the ceiling is rigidly coupled to the wall, there is less flex in the ceiling.

So you could do all the walls, both layers, first.

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post #6 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 05:35 AM
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I agree with Ted and that is how I did it. Did both layers of walls first. Hung ceiling with Kinetic ICW springs and left at least 1/4 inch from the ceiling to walls. Then filled it in with caulk. Works like a charm and can't tell at all that the ceiling and walls are not connected.

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post #7 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses guys. I'll do both layers of the wall 1st and then the ceiling.... will probably save me time (and be better for when I rent the drywall lift to do the ceiling)

P
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post #8 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 10:41 AM
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It's my understanding that you want to interlace the boundary layers. That way your seams between the ceiling and walls will be offset. Otherwise even with sealing the edges you will have a big hole in your room (the seam) for sound to flank through.

In other words, do the ceiling, then the wall. Seal the gaps, then put the second ceiling layer on and then finally the second wall layer.

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post #9 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan View Post

It's my understanding that you want to interlace the boundary layers. That way your seams between the ceiling and walls will be offset. Otherwise even with sealing the edges you will have a big hole in your room (the seam) for sound to flank through.

In other words, do the ceiling, then the wall. Seal the gaps, then put the second ceiling layer on and then finally the second wall layer.

That would be true unless you are using resilient clips.

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post #10 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 11:31 AM
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when doing the drywall I read somewhere you should do one row vertical and the second row horizontal so the joints don't line up. Can anybody confirm this.
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post #11 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 11:33 AM
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The goal is to have the seams of the first layer covered by the second layer. So both seams are not on top of one another. This is generally remedied if you install the first layer horizontally and the second vertically

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post #12 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathan View Post

It's my understanding that you want to interlace the boundary layers. That way your seams between the ceiling and walls will be offset. Otherwise even with sealing the edges you will have a big hole in your room (the seam) for sound to flank through.

In other words, do the ceiling, then the wall. Seal the gaps, then put the second ceiling layer on and then finally the second wall layer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

The goal is to have the seams of the first layer covered by the second layer. So both seams are not on top of one another. This is generally remedied if you install the first layer horizontally and the second vertically

I think we said the same thing, right? How would using resilient clips make any difference in staggering the seams between the wall and ceiling?

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post #13 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 01:27 PM
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Not the same thing. I was referring to covering the seams of the first (wall) layer of drywall with the second (wall) layer of drywall. That way there's no clear seam through both layers.

If you were not using clips you would stagger the joints exactly as you described for the wall / ceiling intersection. But with resilient clips this is not the case. The clip manufacturer requires the ceiling to be independent of the walls. A 1/4" gap is left around the perimeter of the ceiling to allow the ceiling to move up and down just as freely as possible. Like a piston. Now you can't just leave that big 1/4" gap all around so you fill with flexible sealant.

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post #14 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 01:45 PM
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Since I'm at about the same stage of construction of my HT but mine is "a room within a room " I was wondering should the walls and ceiling drywall touch or should gap be left and caulked. Side walls are staggered stud,double drywall with GG and ceiling is double drywall with GG screwed right on ceiling joists. all drywall is 5/8's
thanks
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post #15 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

Not the same thing. I was referring to covering the seams of the first (wall) layer of drywall with the second (wall) layer of drywall. That way there's no clear seam through both layers.

If you were not using clips you would stagger the joints exactly as you described for the wall / ceiling intersection. But with resilient clips this is not the case. The clip manufacturer requires the ceiling to be independent of the walls. A 1/4" gap is left around the perimeter of the ceiling to allow the ceiling to move up and down just as freely as possible. Like a piston. Now you can't just leave that big 1/4" gap all around so you fill with flexible sealant.

I've been looking for a diagram the last hour or so that shows what I'm trying to describe because I still think we are saying the same thing. Not having drawing tools or napkins to sketch this out at work let me try to better describe it.

First put up the first layer of wall drywall. Install the ceiling with a 1/4" gap between the the ceiling edge and the side of the wall drywall. Fill the seam with caulk. Now install the second wall drywall so that there is stall a 1/4" gap between the top edge and the ceiling. Fill the gap with caulk. Then install the last ceiling layer so that again the edge is 1/4 away from the wall layer and caulk. This should still allow the ceiling to float even though the edge seams are staggered.

Again, I could be completely wrong about this, but it's how I remember the diagram. I just wish i could find it...

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post #16 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 02:02 PM
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Tankerman: You would not leave the gap since you have no clips. I might suggest you consider installing wood furring strip to the underside of the joists every 24". This isn't decoupling but it changes the spacing from 16" to 24" so the ceiling flexes just a bit. Cost about $24 for the room and makes a difference for you. You'd lose 3/4" of height.

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post #17 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

You would not leave the gap since you have no clips. I might suggest you consider installing wood furring strip to the underside of the joists every 24". This isn't decoupling but it changes the spacing from 16" to 24" so the ceiling flexes just a bit. Cost about $24 for the room and makes a difference for you. You'd lose 3/4" of height.

I was describing it with hat track/clips.

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post #18 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 03:05 PM
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I understand what you're saying now. I just looked in the PAC clip installation guide. Just says leave 1/4" gap. I suspect that is asked, PAC and Kinetics would view that stair step intersection as too restrictive. That's my speculation. That's a lot of caulked intersections that would essentially wind up quite rigid.

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post #19 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 03:44 PM
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That could be. I did finally find the thread. It was archived.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/...63#post9207263

and here is the photo...


You are right that it doesn't mention the use of hat track in that photo.

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post #20 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 04:47 PM
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Great pic. That IS in fact the best way to seal corners otherwise.

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post #21 of 21 Old 02-14-2008, 08:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guru View Post

I agree with Ted and that is how I did it. Did both layers of walls first. Hung ceiling with Kinetic ICW springs and left at least 1/4 inch from the ceiling to walls. Then filled it in with caulk. Works like a charm and can't tell at all that the ceiling and walls are not connected.

Were you able to screw the top of the walls to the top plate?

I fear my top plate is too tall, and will be below the ceiling...... unless you went all the way up the wall to the top plate, and made the ceiling below the top of the wall...

i.e.

II ( track and clips)
II ------------------- drywall
II--------------------drywall
II
II

(each I is 1 layer of wall drywall)

P
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