Buying new proj. which one for 3D? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 12-31-2009, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I am looking at either the Optoma HD20 or the Epson 8100.

I currently have a Mits. HD1000, which btw, I love...

Seeing the new Avatar movie wowed me with the 3D, and undoubtedly the wave of the future in TV/Projectors.

So, I would like to beat the curve and get prepared for 3D on a projector. From what I gather there are about 3 different formats for 3D and possible format war coming.

From doing a lot of reading, it looks like pretty much any 120mhz projector can do 3D. Just depends on the format which will tell the need for powered glasses or a powered screen or just passive glasses.

Also, looks like there is a LCD polarized filter available, which can convert a projector to do 3D, but its not cheap yet.

Any help would be appreciated. Also, your opinion on what projector to choose is valued....
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post #2 of 40 Old 12-31-2009, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthejoker20 View Post

I am looking at either the Optoma HD20 or the Epson 8100.

I currently have a Mits. HD1000, which btw, I love...

Seeing the new Avatar movie wowed me with the 3D, and undoubtedly the wave of the future in TV/Projectors.

So, I would like to beat the curve and get prepared for 3D on a projector. From what I gather there are about 3 different formats for 3D and possible format war coming.

From doing a lot of reading, it looks like pretty much any 120mhz projector can do 3D. Just depends on the format which will tell the need for powered glasses or a powered screen or just passive glasses.

Also, looks like there is a LCD polarized filter available, which can convert a projector to do 3D, but its not cheap yet.

Any help would be appreciated. Also, your opinion on what projector to choose is valued....


What is with the 3d craze.. Why spend all this money just so you can see Avatar, My Bloody Valentine, and Ice Age 3 when they come out on blu-ray3d. You realize there aren't very many movies filmed in stereo, and i don't believe there are alot slated for 2010 either. Meaning you are looking at probably 2012 or 2013 before you start actually finding movies being released in this format.

By then you'll be on a different projector anyway.
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post #3 of 40 Old 12-31-2009, 09:27 AM
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You also have to remember that the home 3D Blu Ray standard may look quite different to the commercial grade cinema projectors

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post #4 of 40 Old 12-31-2009, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danieledmunds View Post

You also have to remember that the home 3D Blu Ray standard may look quite different to the commercial grade cinema projectors


True, they just finalized it a few days ago... not sure why you would consider buying a projector when nobody has even seen the finished product.


They might come out with BR3D1.2 in mid 2010 that makes all the early adopters obsolete.


My advice to all is to wait, unless you want to rock out some nvidia computer games in 3d, which is working technology, and might be pretty darn cool on a projector.
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post #5 of 40 Old 01-01-2010, 06:38 AM
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Yes, 3D is an emerging technology BUT it is not a gimmick as it was decades ago.

Do a bit of research and you will find that, in fact, both movie and tv content producers are solidly invested in 3D and, in fact, a LOT of content is in the "pipe line" for production.

It is seriously expensive to retrofit a commercial theater to 3D and thousands of screens are converted or scheduled to convert in 2010 and the investment of all that money is no joke to the movie industry.

Why go for it? Because we FINALLY have emerging what so many of us have been waiting for which is an upgrade from 2D flat visual entertainment that we have had to make do with for over 100 years! Hooray!!!

If you have doubts after extensive "Googling" on the subject of the industry commitment to the new technology wait for what they will showcase at CES 2010. I suspect 3D will be prominent

LOL but - IMO - not buying into 3D is a bit like those back in the 20s who refused to buy into "talking pictures". Sure, content will be thin but growing and before long no one will be buying "flat" displays.

Of course, we need to make sure that what we buy will support the standard of content production but the supported standards will be obvious in short order.

IMO - you will buy into 3D for home use or you will find yourself either buying more movie tickets that you expected or watching the 3D displays of more forward thinking friends and neighbors.
Happy New Year in 3D!!!
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post #6 of 40 Old 01-01-2010, 03:43 PM
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I read some projectors would be 3d ready soon. Does anyone know when? I was going to upgrade to a Panny 4000 or the high end epson model. Now I think I'm going to buy a replacement bulb for my Z4 and wait a while.
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post #7 of 40 Old 01-02-2010, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Meno View Post

I read some projectors would be 3d ready soon. Does anyone know when? I was going to upgrade to a Panny 4000 or the high end epson model. Now I think I'm going to buy a replacement bulb for my Z4 and wait a while.

We can expect to start finding out within the next few days what 3D ready projectors will be coming out in 2010 as the Consumer Electrionics Show (CES 2010) is next week. Some manufacturers may even put out press releases just in advance of the start of CES. We know that the current generation of DLP display chips are fast enough to support 3D, but its not clear if the current generation of LCD display chips (as used by Epson, Panasonic and Mits) or if the current LCoS chips (as used by JVC and Sony) are fast enough to support 3D or if a new generation of display chips are required to support next generation, 3D capable, projectors. This may impact how soon the manufacturers will be bringing out their 3D enabled projectors.

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post #8 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthejoker20 View Post

I am looking at either the Optoma HD20 or the Epson 8100.

None of those are 3D capable.

The only ones that I know of are the Optoma HD66 and the Acer H5360. Both are 720p projectors with similar specifications.
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post #9 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 08:37 AM
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A quick test to check out your projector is to rent Spy Kids 3D. It is an older 3D technology but has some fun effects that pop off my 106" screen using a DLP projector.
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post #10 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 09:25 AM
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The Spy Kids test will not prove your projector is 3d ready. We are talking about new technology. Epson has announced a new LCD chip that is 3d ready but I doubt if we see it until next fall. One must also consider that different types of screens would probably also be needed.
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post #11 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imjay View Post

Yes, 3D is an emerging technology BUT it is not a gimmick as it was decades ago.

Do a bit of research and you will find that, in fact, both movie and tv content producers are solidly invested in 3D and, in fact, a LOT of content is in the "pipe line" for production.

It is seriously expensive to retrofit a commercial theater to 3D and thousands of screens are converted or scheduled to convert in 2010 and the investment of all that money is no joke to the movie industry.

Why go for it? Because we FINALLY have emerging what so many of us have been waiting for which is an upgrade from 2D flat visual entertainment that we have had to make do with for over 100 years! Hooray!!!

If you have doubts after extensive "Googling" on the subject of the industry commitment to the new technology wait for what they will showcase at CES 2010. I suspect 3D will be prominent

LOL but - IMO - not buying into 3D is a bit like those back in the 20s who refused to buy into "talking pictures". Sure, content will be thin but growing and before long no one will be buying "flat" displays.

Of course, we need to make sure that what we buy will support the standard of content production but the supported standards will be obvious in short order.

IMO - you will buy into 3D for home use or you will find yourself either buying more movie tickets that you expected or watching the 3D displays of more forward thinking friends and neighbors.
Happy New Year in 3D!!!

While all of this might be true, I still don't think 3D will be used for all movies 5-10 years from now. I think it will be used sparingly for certain epic films. Otherwise it will be gimicky and lose its effect.

While Avatar was amazing, I wouldn't want that effect in every single movie I watch.
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post #12 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 11:16 AM
 
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If you want a True 3D projector I'd wait a couple of years. There is no consumer 3D standard currently, although HDMI announced 1.4 they also announced they will be adding to the spec later this year to expand the available 3D formats.

Although you can possibly get a pseudo 3D effect right now with the current standards you won't get the clarity of the new 3D movies without the new standard. It has to do with video streams being separated and compressed individually to have separate frames for the left and right eye.

Current video compression algorithms look at the differences between frames and only store the necessary data for changes between the frames and not the whole frame individually. So even if a source is 120fps and tries to use odd and even frames for 3D now it won't be as good as films like Avatar until the new standards and source material is available

Whether 3D will catch on for the home is questionable amongst the general population. Enthusiasts will have it, but will the average person buying a TV care about it. It has two major obstacles.

1. The need for glasses. Although there have been displays that don't need the glasses they currently have a very narrow viewing area and not practical for most homes. If that technology can be improved it would definitely help but I don't see that happening in the next 5 years.

2. Source Material. Although there will certainly be more movies made for 3D how much it penetrates the home market is questionable. Start broadcasting sports in 3D and you'll see wider acceptance

Buying a projector now that can do a propietary 3D now will be about useless unless it can be upgraded to the newer standards.

Bob
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post #13 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

If you want a True 3D projector I'd wait a couple of years. There is no consumer 3D standard currently, although HDMI announced 1.4 they also announced they will be adding to the spec later this year to expand the available 3D formats.

The 3D Bluray standard has been finalised.

http://www.techradar.com/news/televi...nalised-658745

Quote:


The Blu-ray Disc Association has finalised the specification for Blu-ray 3D.

The key detail of this is that Blu-ray 3D will deliver "Full HD 1080p resolution to each eye", the MVC codec means that 3D will only require an extra 50 per cent of storage space versus 2D.

...The Blu-ray 3D specification is also designed to allow the PlayStation 3 to play back Blu-ray 3D content... The spec for Blu-ray 3D is display agnostic, so it can deliver a 3D image to any 3D screen regardless of the display technology used.

Also. 3d capable projectors are with us already with the Optoma HD66 and the Acer 5360. Both 720p 3D projectors.

As soon as Sony released the firmware for the PS3 and the odd 3D bluray movie, we're golden. Sony are due to release a new range of 3D capable Bravia tv's early this year so I guess they'll time the firmware update to coincide with that.

I also hope that 3D capable 1080p projectors will also get released this year which should be doable for DLP at least. Not sure about LCD etc...

2010 is definitely going to be the year of 3D movies. At long last.
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post #14 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

True, they just finalized it a few days ago... not sure why you would consider buying a projector when nobody has even seen the finished product.


They might come out with BR3D1.2 in mid 2010 that makes all the early adopters obsolete.


My advice to all is to wait, unless you want to rock out some nvidia computer games in 3d, which is working technology, and might be pretty darn cool on a projector.

I fully agree with you. If recent history is any indication, blu-ray went from profile 1.0 to 1.1 to 2.0. There will be similar iterations/profiles for 3D. Since the entire chain (player, cable, display and may be receiver/video processor) is changing it would be better to wait.

Also, even if someone buys the projector/TV today, the content won't be available till mid next year at least. So, why not wait? Same thing happened to early adopters of HDTV's. Their displays were HD Ready with DVI/Firewire ports and they paid huge prices. They also thought it was future proof, but alas, HDCP screwed them big time. So, learn from history, hold your money tight and buy when something is available and you can actually experience it.

BTW, I am not against 3D. I am awaiting it eagerly but very much patient with my purchases. I will buy when I see it.

Manoj
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post #15 of 40 Old 01-03-2010, 02:15 PM
 
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HDMI just announced Dec 23rd that they were going to meet at the end of January to be adding another 3D format (tentatively called "Top/Bottom") to the HDMI 1.4 spec. Once finalized this will probably be added to Blu-Ray as well. So I suspect we will see HDMI 1.4b announced by the end of the year.

http://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=116

I'll be adding 3D when I can as well. But, I'm not jumping the gun. I doubt there will be a format war like HD-DVD and Blu-ray but I there already different 3D systems and the players and interface are going to support various 3D formats. Similar to Dolby Digital, DTS, MPEG 2, MPEG4, etc. So you might be stuck with a projector that only supports one format and not be able to view all discs.

Neither Optoma or Acer have set what 3D format(s) they are following and we don't know if they are upgradeable. I'd either wait or buy one knowing I might have to upgrade again in the future.

Bob
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post #16 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberheater View Post

2010 is definitely going to be the year of 3D movies. At long last.


ORLY !!!



You do realize you can't convert a movie to 3d... if it wasn't filmed in stereo, it isn't possible. Maybe you are aware of some awesome 3d movies out there, but Avatar is the only thing worth watching i'm aware of. Yes, you can buy Final Dimension 3d, and have fun watching it. I would rather watch paint dry IMO than some gimmicky crap movie you are only viewing because of the 3d effects.


The things slowing down 3d, and making it rather irrelivant in projectors.

1. There's only 1 decent movie in 3d, and I'm not aware of many more being filmed in this fashion in the near future. Keep in mind it takes a long time to make a movie.

2. Television can't be in 3d, they don't have the bandwidth for 1080i at 120hz... Sooooooo
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post #17 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 08:56 AM
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i am planning to get a 3-D projector as well, i know i will not use the 3-D on everything but since i am buying, i prefer to buy something will all the available features at the time, this way i will not have remorse and i'll future proof my purchase as much as i can.
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post #18 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 09:04 AM
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a couple of other fun movies in 3D that I saw were Beowolf and the IMAX U2 concert film, which was very well done.
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post #19 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

ORLY !!!



You do realize you can't convert a movie to 3d...

Yes you can. The technology is available but expensive:-
http://poproxnation.thekartel.com/bl...what_you_think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

The things slowing down 3d, and making it rather irrelivant in projectors.

1. There's only 1 decent movie in 3d, and I'm not aware of many more being filmed in this fashion in the near future. Keep in mind it takes a long time to make a movie.

Here's a list:-
http://3dguy.tv/3d-movie-list/#2009
Quite a few and many more are going to be released in 2010 in 3D

Quote:
Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

2. Television can't be in 3d, they don't have the bandwidth for 1080i at 120hz... Sooooooo

3D capable tv's are already available:-
http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/3-d_dlp_hdtv.aspx
Samsung have already release a 1080p LCD tv that is 3D capable. More from Sony etc... are on there way.
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post #20 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 11:19 AM
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You need to wait for the new HDMI spec, so don't even look until that is available.

However, I saw Avatar too, and 3d is finally viable. It was incredible and not gimmicky at all. It's worth looking into for sure.

In 3 years. Just be patient.
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post #21 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 11:24 AM
 
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There is talk that many DLPs could be firmware upgraded from 60hz to 85hz for stereo. 85hz is apparently the minimum for shutter glasses, but based on experience that would lead to an awful lot of flicker. Regardless, today's hometheater projectors just aren't bright enough for it. 3D takes double the lumens to satisfy minimum footlambert limits.

Start here: http://www.3dmovielist.com/3dhdtvs.html
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post #22 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 11:24 AM
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3D TV is set to go live the middle of this year with Soccer broadcast in the UK. 3D for the States is also right around the corner. Direct TV has already launched a satellite to broadcast 3D stations. So I understand your pain. I too want a 3D capable projector. It's certainly not as far away as some make it seem.
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post #23 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

If you want a True 3D projector I'd wait a couple of years. There is no consumer 3D standard currently, although HDMI announced 1.4 they also announced they will be adding to the spec later this year to expand the available 3D formats.

Although you can possibly get a pseudo 3D effect right now with the current standards you won't get the clarity of the new 3D movies without the new standard. It has to do with video streams being separated and compressed individually to have separate frames for the left and right eye.

Current video compression algorithms look at the differences between frames and only store the necessary data for changes between the frames and not the whole frame individually. So even if a source is 120fps and tries to use odd and even frames for 3D now it won't be as good as films like Avatar until the new standards and source material is available

Whether 3D will catch on for the home is questionable amongst the general population. Enthusiasts will have it, but will the average person buying a TV care about it. It has two major obstacles.

1. The need for glasses. Although there have been displays that don't need the glasses they currently have a very narrow viewing area and not practical for most homes. If that technology can be improved it would definitely help but I don't see that happening in the next 5 years.

2. Source Material. Although there will certainly be more movies made for 3D how much it penetrates the home market is questionable. Start broadcasting sports in 3D and you'll see wider acceptance

Buying a projector now that can do a propietary 3D now will be about useless unless it can be upgraded to the newer standards.

Bob

Thats what I'm saying football in 3D
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post #24 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberheater View Post

Yes you can. The technology is available but expensive:-
http://poproxnation.thekartel.com/bl...what_you_think.

Link doesn't work, but after some googling, it's not working the way you are thinking it does. Not to mention, to add these effects(since they are nothing but effects) 100,000 dollars per minute. Yes, alot of studios will spend that kind of money on a blu-ray release.


Quote:


Here's a list:-
http://3dguy.tv/3d-movie-list/#2009
Quite a few and many more are going to be released in 2010 in 3D

I suppose


Quote:


3D capable tv's are already available:-
http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/3-d_dlp_hdtv.aspx
Samsung have already release a 1080p LCD tv that is 3D capable. More from Sony etc... are on there way.

No s**t

I was referring to the signal, the same reason we don't have 1080p television broadcasts... if you can't broadcast 1080p@60hz, how the heck can you broadcast 1080i@120hz ??? Do the math.
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post #25 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Verge2 View Post

No s**t

I was referring to the signal, the same reason we don't have 1080p television broadcasts... if you can't broadcast 1080p@60hz, how the heck can you broadcast 1080i@120hz ??? Do the math.

Why the aggression?

DirecTV [US] and SkyHD [UK] have both announced that they are going to broadcast some content in 3D with only a firmware upgrade required to the set top boxs.

2010 is definitely going to be noted as the year that launched 3D to the consumer.
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post #26 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 01:49 PM
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I believe broadcast 3D will be limited to 540i. Therefore it would be 3D but not HD. Until a new broadcast standard/infrastructure arises that allows more.

The Blu-ray spec allows for full 1080p 3D but only if you use HDMI 1.4 devices and cabling. If you use HDMI 1.3 (Sony PS3 for example) you will get 1080i 3D (assuming your TV supports 3D, of course).

Most TVs released thus far that are "3D-capable" can only do 1080i 3D at best (and perhaps even lower rez) through HDMI. Not sure about other input methods (VGA might allow better?).

Caveat: I could be very well be wrong...this is just the best info I have so far from various internet sites.
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post #27 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberheater View Post

Why the aggression?

DirecTV [US] and SkyHD [UK] have both announced that they are going to broadcast some content in 3D with only a firmware upgrade required to the set top boxs.

2010 is definitely going to be noted as the year that launched 3D to the consumer.

Yes but directv also delivers in 1080p... which most tv stations don't do, and cannot do...


I don't doubt 2010 will be a good year, but people are jumping on the bandwagon and wanting advice on making, IMO, a rash decision. I would advise waiting before trying to build that 3d theater, especially since nobody even knows what it will entail..... Just a heads up!
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post #28 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 02:54 PM
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According to CVG, the Blu-Ray Disc Association has confirmed that as far as 3D is concerned, the PlayStation 3 is already capable of playing two full 1080p streams.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com....php?id=229945

I have to say. It's really hard to find concrete facts on the ability of HDMI 1.3 to sustain two 1080p progressive streams although according to wiki. The video bandwidth of hdmi 1.3 and 1.4 are the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_1.3
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post #29 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 03:17 PM
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I just wanted to chime in here to disprove some of the posters here saying that cable networks and other devices can't do 1080p 3D.

You can do 1080p 3D via HDMI 1.3. You don't need 1.4. NVIDIA 3D Vision uses 120hz via HDMI 1.3 currently without problems. The PS3 can do 1080p 3D via HDMI 1.3 according to Sony.

Cable networks and satellite broadcasters can do 1080p 3D using their current networks (this is assuming they have set top boxes that are 1080p HDMI 1.3 compatible).

The reason that TV broadcasters can do this is because you don't need to broadcast the 3D signal at 120hz in the first place. It only needs to be broadcast at 48hz (24fps per eye) or 60hz (30fps per eye) and then multiplied to 120hz via the set top box or HDTV processing. Broadcasting at 120hz is just a complete waste of bandwidth.

Another thing to look out for is if a TV broadcaster is using "top/bottom" or "side by side" 3D for broadcasting. This method is terrible and cuts either vertical or horizontal resolution in half because it broadcasts both left and right images in the same frame (doing this would also allow the broadcasters to use the same 30hz or 60hz signal they currently employ.
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post #30 of 40 Old 01-04-2010, 03:54 PM
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Well 3D is the future - no disagreement

The specs were just finalized - no product has been released since they were finalized

The first units will probably be upper-end units with a lot of other features and then 3D

I would either get a "cheaper" PJ now and a 3D capable later or wait until later.

Not disputing that 3D is here to stay, not disputing that it is great, nor that stuff is going to be released shortly, but to buy something today for the 3D age doesn't make sense to me.

You either wait or decide to get something that will not be optimal for 3D.
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