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post #31 of 48 Old 07-24-2010, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielJoy View Post

i dont want to get into an argument with you- but your opinion does not match my experience. pc can output 1080p60 no problem. there are many smaller LCD 3d monitors that have dual DVI and 120hrz and are run at 1080p60in 3d. surprisingly they get the same frame rates as i do with 1080p checkerboard! i have done allot of benchmark testing and comparison with other 3d vision users as a hobby.

I think the conversion to checkerboard happens after the scene is already rendered- at the driver level. but i am not sure how the engineers do it.

This isn't an argument; it's a breakdown in communication.

I never talked about whether your checkerboard could or couldn't be packed into a 1080p60 signal. I didn't talk about that because a 1080p60 3D "checkerboard" signal is not full resolution 1080p 3D... it's half resolution, and I thought you were asking about full-1080p resolution 3D.

Checkerboard 3D, by definition, is half resolution because each left/right derived image uses only half the vertical and half the horizontal pixels. It uses every other pixel of the 1080p frame for each eye... which means your resultant resolution is (technically) 1/2 of 1920 x 1080p. Another type of 3D that uses 1/2 resolution inside a conventional frame are odd/even lines (what 3D cable will be using) or odd/even columns. In all of these cases, because the two left and right images share the space of one conventional 2D image, they do it by alternating pixels (in whatever pattern I mentioned) which means these types of 3D signals are actually 1/2 resolution inherently.

When you asked about full 1080p 3D with these new projectors, I therefore assumed you were talking about *not* using checkerboard.

If your question is whether or not the LG is a 1080p 3D projector, the answer is yes. If your next question is whether the LG will accept and display checkerboard 3D material, the answer is we don't know for sure, but probably not since checkerboard 3D only works "end to end" with DLP devices.

However, It's possible that the LG might *accept* a checkerboard 3D signal, and then internally convert it to discrete left/right frames for it's dual light engine (the LG is inherently a discrete/stereo left/right machine by design), but this would still entail resolution loss in comparison to a true native dual-channel 1080p 3D signal (like from 3D blu-ray) since the checkerboard 1080p signal was only 1/2 resolution for each eye.

* Note: My comment about checkerboard 3D being 1/2 resolution is true, but the good news is that in practice the perception of resolution by your brain is not of a 3D image that looks like 1/2 the resolution of a comparable 2D 1080p image. The reason is that the brain, to some degree, marries the detail from each eye... and so since each pixel captures a slightly different portion of the original image, the "assembled" image has higher perceived detail than it would if each image were viewed on its own. Similar to the way that a static image being delivered via interlaced scan lines looks close to full progressive resolution because each alternating field captures the detail in its scan lines that the previous field skipped over. However, also like 2D interlacing, there are artifacts (motion) that do drop effective visible resolution more significantly, which is one of the reasons why the future of high-end 3D is native stereo (discrete dual channel) HD. With time, it's hoped that cable might also migrate to true stereo 3D rather than it's own interweaved approach.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #32 of 48 Old 07-24-2010, 11:09 PM
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apologies with the breakdown in communication. Im still confused why you mention checkerboard is not full HD. of course it is not. thats why im interested in new projectors. The pc an output any signal format created that runs through HDMI or DVi. i could run any display tech I want as soon as the driver support is finished.

i should have asked if the beemer will accept 1080p60 frame packed 3d- or even better 1080p120 sequential 3d. or if it will only accept 1080p24 3d in frame packed format. I already have 1080p60 checkerboard 3d. Looking forward to upgrading.

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post #33 of 48 Old 07-24-2010, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielJoy View Post

i should have asked if the beemer will accept 1080p60 frame packed 3d- or even 1080p120 sequential 3d. or if it will only accept 1080p24 3d in frame packed format. I already have 1080p60 checkerboard 3d. Looking forward to upgrading.

both excellent questions and both unknowns at this point. I think that most 3D PJ manufacturers will make their units compatible with various 3D signals... not just the blu-ray's "pure" 1080p24 3D version. To that point, some 3D BD players will even have options to output the 3D in checkerboard and other forms in case one is using an older 3D DLP PJ that can't do discrete 1080p24 stereo.

In any case, it wouldn't be hard for the LG to at least *accept* the checkerboard signal, and then internally split it into the two discrete left/right images, fill in the missing pixels via interpolation, and then display the signal as it would a native 1080p 24 signal. But whether this backwards-compatibility feature is built-in or not remains to be seen. Same thing with 1080p120 3D... no reason why various PJs wouldn't be able to do that as long as the designers plan for it.

Hopefully the guys designing our 3D gear will take a "more the merrier" approach to 3D protocols to cast the broadest net given the various flavors of 3D out in the field besides our dream-come-true BD 3D spec.

Once we start to see real-world reviews of these machines expect decent reviewers to answer these very questions, as I'm sure you're not alone: most avid 3D fans will have already invested in various forms of 3D software/playback methodologies and naturally they'll hope that they can take advantage of what they already have along side the new 3D BD spec.

dave

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #34 of 48 Old 07-25-2010, 09:06 AM
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The HDMI 1.4a spec. doesn't specifically support 1080p/120 (frame sequental 3D), even as an optional (i.e., secondary) format. Full resolution 1080i/120 is listed as an optional format but not full resolution 1080p/120. The only "mandatory" full resolution 1080p format in the HDMI 1.4a spec. is 1080p/24. The only "Secondary 3D format timings" (page 11-13) for 1080p/120 is for the half resolution side-by-side and top-bottom modes and not for any full resolution 1080p mode (i.e., not for either frame packed nor frame sequential). For the 1080p/120 frame sequential mode PCs and PC monitors use dual link DVI for the interface and it's not clear when or if the HDMI spec. and hardware chipsets will be revised to support such a mode.

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post #35 of 48 Old 07-26-2010, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The HDMI 1.4a spec. doesn't specifically support 1080p/120 (frame sequental 3D), even as an optional (i.e., secondary) format. Full resolution 1080i/120 is listed as an optional format but not full resolution 1080p/120. The only "mandatory" full resolution 1080p format in the HDMI 1.4a spec. is 1080p/24. The only "Secondary 3D format timings" (page 11-13) for 1080p/120 is for the half resolution side-by-side and top-bottom modes and not for any full resolution 1080p mode (i.e., not for either frame packed nor frame sequential). For the 1080p/120 frame sequential mode PCs and PC monitors use dual link DVI for the interface and it's not clear when or if the HDMI spec. and hardware chipsets will be revised to support such a mode.

I don't think anyone looking for a 1080p120Hz 3D projector (including me) cares if it uses HDMI in this mode. All we are asking for is dual link DVI like the current LCD monitors for 3D Vision use. The projector would also have to support HDMI 1.4 formats via HDMI.
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post #36 of 48 Old 07-27-2010, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

I don't think anyone looking for a 1080p120Hz 3D projector (including me) cares if it uses HDMI in this mode. All we are asking for is dual link DVI like the current LCD monitors for 3D Vision use. The projector would also have to support HDMI 1.4 formats via HDMI.

Interesting. I'm not aware of any of these new consumer-oriented full-HD 1080P displays offering dual-link DVI... everything seems to be oriented towards the new BD and cable protocols over HDMI.

does anyone know what "gaming" like the PS3 does in 3D mode? Does it send 1080p120 or 720p120 over HDMI in left/right/left/right fashion?

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #37 of 48 Old 07-27-2010, 01:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Interesting. I'm not aware of any of these new consumer-oriented full-HD 1080P displays offering dual-link DVI... everything seems to be oriented towards the new BD and cable protocols over HDMI.

does anyone know what "gaming" like the PS3 does in 3D mode? Does it send 1080p120 or 720p120 over HDMI in left/right/left/right fashion?

3D games for the PS3 uses the 720x60P frame packed 3D format.
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post #38 of 48 Old 07-27-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

3D games for the PS3 uses the 720x60P frame packed 3D format.

Curious if 720p60 frame-packed is part of the official HDMI 1.4 3D supported protocols? How about 1080p60 frame-packed?

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #39 of 48 Old 07-27-2010, 03:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Curious if 720p60 frame-packed is part of the official HDMI 1.4 3D supported protocols? How about 1080p60 frame-packed?

Unknown - the original link I had to the specs no longer works

This is from the March 2010 HDMI 1.4a announcement:

Mandatory 3D Formats

For movie content:
Frame Packing
1080p @ 23.98/24Hz

For game content:
Frame Packing
720p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz

For broadcast content:
Side-by-Side Horizontal
1080i @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz

Top-and-Bottom
720p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz
1080p @ 23.97/24Hz

Implementing the mandatory formats of the HDMI Specification facilitates interoperability among devices, allowing devices to speak a common 3D language when transmitting and receiving 3D content. The mandatory requirements for devices implementing 3D formats are:

Displays – must support all mandatory formats.
Sources – must support at least one mandatory format.
Repeaters - must be able to pass through all mandatory formats.

************************************************************ **********************

Originally Panasonic had talked about using another format for frame packing for BD; 1920x1080x60i but it seems to have been dropped.
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post #40 of 48 Old 07-27-2010, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Interesting. I'm not aware of any of these new consumer-oriented full-HD 1080P displays offering dual-link DVI... everything seems to be oriented towards the new BD and cable protocols over HDMI.

does anyone know what "gaming" like the PS3 does in 3D mode? Does it send 1080p120 or 720p120 over HDMI in left/right/left/right fashion?

it is interesting and a bit surprising to me considering the lack of content for BD 3d and the wealth of PC 3d ready games. over 400!!

Must just be a small market?

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post #41 of 48 Old 07-27-2010, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The HDMI 1.4a spec. doesn't specifically support 1080p/120 (frame sequental 3D), even as an optional (i.e., secondary) format.

Did something change? i though it was part of the optional secondary timings? i downloaded the 3d portion of HDMI 1.4a specs which said otherwise. im probably wrong- maybe i miss read something. i was probably overly optimistic that the new secondary timings would show up sooner rather than later on high end products.

Mandatory stereo formats:
* Frame packing - a full-resolution top-bottom format with additional vertical blanking area in the middle
-- progressive (full-resolution)
-- interlaced (half temporal resolution)
* Side-by-side (Half)
-- horizontal subsampling (1 variant) updated
* Top-and-Bottom (half-resolution) new

Optional formats:
* Field alternative (interlaced) - not really different from interlaced frame packing
* Line alternative (full-resolution)
* Side-by-side (Half)
-- quincunx samping (4 variants - L/R pictures sampled at odd/odd, odd/even, even/odd, even/even positions)
-- includes Real-D and Sensio formats (side-by-side checkerboard)
* Side-by-side (Full)
* 2D + depth - Philips WOWvx
* 2D + depth + graphics + graphics depth - Philips WOWvx Declipse

Mandatory 3D modes:
* Blu-ray 3D movies - frame packing at 1080p @ 23.98/24 Hz
* console gaming - frame packing at 720p @ 50 Hz or 59.94/60 Hz
* broadcast television new
- top-bottom (half) at 720p @ 50 Hz or 59.94/60 Hz, 1080p @ 23.97/24Hz
- side-by-side (half) at 1080i @ 50 Hz or 59.94/60Hz
* HDMI Sinks and Repeaters must support all modes; Sources must support at least one

All other video modes are optional.

Primary 3D Video Format Timings new
* 1280x720p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1280x720p @ 23.98/24, 29.97/30 Hz - Frame Packing
* 1920x1080i @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half)
* 1920x1080p @ 23.98/24, 30Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080p @ 29.97, 30Hz - Frame Packing, Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Top-and-Bottom

Secondary 3D Video timings include: new
* 1280x720p @ 23.98/24Hz, 29.97/30Hz - Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1280x720p @ 25Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080i @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Top-and-Bottom
* 1920x1080p @ 50 or 59.94/60Hz - Frame Packing, Side-by-Side(Half)
* 1920x1080p @ 100 or 119.88/120Hz - Side-by-Side(Half), Top-and-Bottom
* other SDTV, EDTV and HDTV timings defined in CEA-861-E

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post #42 of 48 Old 08-17-2010, 11:12 PM
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post #43 of 48 Old 08-18-2010, 08:36 PM
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Until there are HDMI chips with the necessary bandwidth to support a full 1080p signal at 60 frames to each eye, we have to hope that some of these companies provide either dual-link DVI or DisplayPort inputs. I'm pretty sure DisplayPort has enough bandwidth to support 1080p@120.

The thing that kinda sucks though, is that this is only really going to matter for PC gaming. I'm more concerned with the followup to the Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3. I'd be shocked if Microsoft doesn't release a "new" Xbox by November 2012. Will this "new" Xbox have a DisplayPort output? Probably not. Will it have dual-link DVI? Most certainly not. Will it have a new version of hdmi that has enough bandwidth for full 1080p at 60 frames to each eye? Most likely. The problem with this, is that any display that we buy in the next 18 months is unlikely to have this "new" hdmi chip with the necessary bandwidth, meaning that we will be screwed when the Xbox 3 and PS4 are released.

Of course, if you're strictly a PC gamer, and have no interest in console gaming, then this isn't a very big deal. Myself personally, I prefer console gaming, so this is a very big deal to me. Despite that fact, there is no way in hell that I'm waiting another 18 months before buying a 3D projector. So, I guess I'll just have to deal with the reality and resell what ever projector I end up getting when the time comes, to get one that is hdmi 1.6 compatible (or whatever HDMI standard we are on by that time).
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post #44 of 48 Old 08-19-2010, 07:59 AM
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Right now technology is limited at 720p / 120hz OK 1024x768 / 120hz really is the current limit. It's a Bandwidth and Processing power issue.
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post #45 of 48 Old 08-19-2010, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Right now technology is limited at 720p / 120hz OK 1024x768 / 120hz really is the current limit. It's a Bandwidth and Processing power issue.


There are dual-dvi monitors that work just fine right now. The problem is, they are small, and you need something that can output dual-dvi. The only thing compatible with it is PC games.
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post #46 of 48 Old 08-22-2010, 08:51 PM
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Finally - polarized 3D at home with the eyes in sync?? In a single projector?? Sounds promising! I can't wait to see it. Shutter glasses suck to me. My brain hates dealing with the temporal disparity between the eyes on such systems. Too much motion on the screen and the image falls apart for me.

I'm eager to see this one in use.
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post #47 of 48 Old 11-22-2010, 02:12 PM
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Sorry to drag out an old thread, but I thought this might be the best place to talk about this.

I LOVE projectors and have been using them for years. I'm very interested to hear some opinions from anyone that has purchased the new 1080p 3D projector from LG.

Everyone was talking about it here and then never came back to give some further information, so I thought it needed a conclusion.

Thanks in advance.
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post #48 of 48 Old 03-14-2012, 06:06 PM
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Have you guys seen the passive polarized edition of the HD33? apparently you can get passive adapters for the epson 5010 and panasonic projectors also? I read it on GuruHD and a few other sites. seems spectacular, any work on if it works?
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