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post #1 of 28 Old 01-11-2010, 10:02 AM - Thread Starter
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I am remodeling and don't have a TV right now. I will be buying a TV in the next few weeks. I was going to buy a Panasonic TH 65PF12UK. Now with all the 3D hype, I'm not sure what to do, buy a cheap TV and see what happens, or buy the Panasonic as planned.

1) What's the real difference between a 3D ready TV and a regular TV. Information seems sketchy and/or unavailable. I found this article but it seems weak.

wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-01/08/panasonic-explains-why-you-need-a-new-tv-for-3d.aspx

2) Would the Panasonic TH 65PF12UK be 3D ready? It supports 1080p60. It also has upgradable plug-in-boards that might be able to be used to upgrade to HDMI 1.4. Also, since the TV can handle dual HD-SDI input I'm pretty sure it could handle the 3D bandwidth requirements?

3) When people mention 3D and 1080p120, do they really mean 120 progressive frames per second, or are they getting confused with 60 interlaced frames per second with 120 fields?

4) What's the difference between HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 when it relates to 3D? This article on Wikipedia (I know Wikipedia is not an "end all" source) shows that the bandwidth is the same for 1.3 and 1.4 but specifically shows that 1.3 cannot do 3D.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

5) What does it mean to have a TV that has dual drivers and is capable of dual scan?

Any help will be most appreciated!

Thanks,
Chris
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post #2 of 28 Old 01-11-2010, 10:47 AM
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Everytime you buy something, later down something better comes out. If you stay waiting then your going to stay waiting.

3D imo is ridiculous and also i've learned my lesson from being a early adopter. I just bought a 42S1 and now all this talk about the 13G Panasonics being close to a 8G Kuro. I got frustrated but then forgot about it and started enjoying my S1 and there's no way i'm exchanging a TV i just got. I'm more than sure the S1 can hold me off another 1-2 years then that way when i move into a new house i can go to a 60" that "should" have passed the Kuro and the 3D "should" be improved.

Point is it's your choice if you want to wait or enjoy now then Upgrade later on when things are more "reliable" and "Kuro-like"

Point is
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post #3 of 28 Old 01-11-2010, 10:48 AM
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And as for the Questions i'm not sure, sorry just trying to give some advice.
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post #4 of 28 Old 01-11-2010, 11:17 AM
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Since you're thinking about 3D, maybe you should wait a few months until they're available. You can see them in person and see how much they cost and if they're worth it. If you do this, whatever you decide, you won't regret it.
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post #5 of 28 Old 01-11-2010, 11:29 AM
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I'd say you might as well wait. Whether or not you like 3D (I do) you can get a great plasma set in the VT25 line if you so wish. I want the 65" 3D model. Folks here either hate it, love it or don't understand 3D. As for me the 3D movies I've seen in the last two years has convinced me to get this for our home. I have no doubts or reservations about it.

Panasonic 3D HDTV TC-PVT25 Is CES 2010 Best In Show

CNET awarded their CES Best In Show Awards and selected the new Panasonic 3D HDTV TC-PVT25 as winner in "Best of Show" and "Best in Television" category.

CNET highlights Panasonic's intense push for 3D and the HD 3D image quality found in the VT25 series, which is supposed to already ship in Spring.

1) What's the real difference between a 3D ready TV and a regular TV. Information seems sketchy and/or unavailable. I found this article but it seems weak.

There is 3D technology built in the "Ready" sets like the transmitter for the glasses


2) Would the Panasonic TH 65PF12UK be 3D ready? It supports 1080p60. It also has upgradable plug-in-boards that might be able to be used to upgrade to HDMI 1.4. Also, since the TV can handle dual HD-SDI input I'm pretty sure it could handle the 3D bandwidth requirements?

Either a set will be 3D Ready or Full 3D. I've not heard of other sets (even those that support 120hz or more) being able to support the new digital 3D.

3) When people mention 3D and 1080p120, do they really mean 120 progressive frames per second, or are they getting confused with 60 interlaced frames per second with 120 fields?

The 120 is probably the refresh rate 60hz per eye X2. That's one of the standards decided upon by the BD Association for BD 3D. Flicker is not supposed to be noticable with 120hz.

4) What's the difference between HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 when it relates to 3D? This article on Wikipedia (I know Wikipedia is not an "end all" source) shows that the bandwidth is the same for 1.3 and 1.4 but specifically shows that 1.3 cannot do 3D.

From what I've gathered, 1.4 will be necessary for 3D. 1.4 should allow more data to be streamed but there are other things that 1.4 can do according to needs of the equipment connected. But for 3D I thinks it's all about getting the huge amount of data in and out.

5) What does it mean to have a TV that has dual drivers and is capable of dual scan?

Not sure about this one.

Hope this helps some.
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post #6 of 28 Old 01-11-2010, 01:41 PM
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I am on the fence about 3D myself, but I can wait until the new Panasonics come out before making a purchase, and if you can I would wait also. One intriguing feature I have read about on upcoming plasmas is the ability to process 2D material to appear as 3D! As long as you can turn it off that would be cool. I think that some Panasonics will have this capability, but likely just the top of the line models. Anyway, when you get my age time flies so a few months won't make a difference.

"The truth is out there!"
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post #7 of 28 Old 01-13-2010, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leetthal View Post

Everytime you buy something, later down something better comes out.

Of course, and virtually everyone knows this, already.

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If you stay waiting then your going to stay waiting.

No, any waiting doesn't imply continual waiting. Furthermore, it is all about what TV one has now, and, moreso, how much more waiting there is.

At this time, the new TVs are close enough, that for some (maybe many) people, it is worth waiting.

Some people don't mind being an early adopter of technology. As long as they are aware that first gen. might very well be flawed, I see no problem with waiting.
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post #8 of 28 Old 01-13-2010, 03:33 PM
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What i found on HDMI 1.4 vs 1.3 is, that 1.4 has Ethernet over HDMI. I don't know what that is good for, or what this has to do with 3D???
HDMI 1.4 is not much different, even the bandwith seems to be the same so no data-traffic-jam is to be expected. Why would HDMI 1.3 not support 3D? Beats me, HDMI 1.3 should be able to move enough data. Even the HDMI port of the PS3 can be upgraded to 1.4 by installing a new firmware. So 1.4 can not be to much different.

Now about the buying moment (or not) for a big screen. I'm in the market for buying a new big screen as well. I've decided to wait for the new 2010 models and not because of 3D, but because i think the 2010 models will have much better PQ than the 2009 models. So i will wait (but i still have my old 32" Samsung LCD to watch tv)

Owns an old HD-Ready LCD panel but is in the market for something new.
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post #9 of 28 Old 01-13-2010, 04:32 PM
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Current TV's, including the one you list in your OP, can play the current "passive" glasses form of 3D where they simply put up a blurry image and the polarized glasses give you an old-fashiond 3D effect.

What the new sets coming out later this year (and previewed at CES this month) do is an "active" 3D that work in tandem with electronic glasses to rapidly interlace every other frame with the forward or back images and rapidly shutting off one eye or the other. This gives you a much more convincing 3D, and possibly a headache. This is the reason for the 120Hz on plasma and the 480Hz or LCD's -- they need double the Hz to alternate between each frame to give you a net 60 or 240Hz per 3D image.

None of the current 12G sets will do this. As you say, they theoretically could add a board to do it with a 12G commercial set but the odds of them doing this are close to nil.

HDMI 1.4 will allow a higher data transfer rate which supposedly will be necessary for the double the amount of frame data used for these new active 3D sets. I say supposedly because, just as it is true that in most cases a non-1.3 HDMI cable can handle 1080p, I'm not sure the jury is conclusively in that you really need a new HDMI cable to handle the extra data. Could be true, could be scam...

Hope that helps.

I am with the camp that is mildly amused by the new 3D push but not compelled to do anything about it. I will wait and see if they manage to also improve regular 2D PQ or at the very least not screw up standard HD PQ in the process of experimenting with Gen 1 3D tech. And I'll wait for a meaningful amount of content before I care. Even then, I'll wait for the accessory tech to get reasonably priced. In year one what you will see is sets coming with 1 set of glasses and needing to pay $100 for each additional pair. So if you have a family of 5 like me, you're talking an extra $400 on glasses, plus the new TV, new blu-ray player (or new DirecTV receiver) and new versions of your blu-ray movies. No thanks.
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post #10 of 28 Old 01-13-2010, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

Of course, and virtually everyone knows this, already.



No, any waiting doesn't imply continual waiting. Furthermore, it is all about what TV one has now, and, moreso, how much more waiting there is.

At this time, the new TVs are close enough, that for some (maybe many) people, it is worth waiting.

Some people don't mind being an early adopter of technology. As long as they are aware that first gen. might very well be flawed, I see no problem with waiting.

Spot on... I bought a 50PZ850U in 2008 and really was considering the 58". I couldn't wait any further, a month had gone by since when moved so I ordered the 50" which was available. Last year I started thinking how I wish I had the 58".

I ordered a 65V10 when they started allowing ordering again a couple of weeks ago. I am canceling and waiting on the 65VT25. I know it'll be a long time before I buy another set, so I figure why not wait a month and get the most up to date set since it has greater advancements in technology. If you're ready to buy on the cusp of a new model being introduced there is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting for the updated version... Just as there is nothing wrong with going with the current model, especially if it comes at a reduced price.
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post #11 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

...None of the current 12G sets will do this. As you say, they theoretically could add a board to do it with a 12G commercial set but the odds of them doing this are close to nil...

There's a better chance that Antarctica will completely thaw. LOL

TW

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post #12 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 04:20 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

Current TV's, including the one you list in your OP, can play the current "passive" glasses form of 3D where they simply put up a blurry image and the polarized glasses give you an old-fashiond 3D effect.

What the new sets coming out later this year (and previewed at CES this month) do is an "active" 3D that work in tandem with electronic glasses to rapidly interlace every other frame with the forward or back images and rapidly shutting off one eye or the other. This gives you a much more convincing 3D, and possibly a headache. This is the reason for the 120Hz on plasma and the 480Hz or LCD's -- they need double the Hz to alternate between each frame to give you a net 60 or 240Hz per 3D image.

Those individuals who are interested in watching 3D TV may be best off to wait until Automultiscopic displays become available.

I suspect this feature is more marketing hype than anything else where those who buy a 3D TV now will pay a premium for a feature they won't use too often or for most, not at all.
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post #13 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

Spot on... I bought a 50PZ850U in 2008 and really was considering the 58". I couldn't wait any further, a month had gone by since when moved so I ordered the 50" which was available. Last year I started thinking how I wish I had the 58".

I ordered a 65V10 when they started allowing ordering again a couple of weeks ago. I am canceling and waiting on the 65VT25. I know it'll be a long time before I buy another set, so I figure why not wait a month and get the most up to date set since it has greater advancements in technology. If you're ready to buy on the cusp of a new model being introduced there is absolutely nothing wrong with waiting for the updated version... Just as there is nothing wrong with going with the current model, especially if it comes at a reduced price.

If the previous trend continues you'll be waiting more than another month for the 65VT25 since the bigger panels usually don't show up till mid to late summer. If the 65VT25 was going to be out by March I too would have put a hold on the 65V10 and waited. According to my wife, I had to sell my McIntosh stereo equipment if I wanted a new TV...so that's what I did. If I were to let that cash hang around too long SOME CRISIS would reveal itself and my dreams of getting Panasonic's latest panel would be toast. So, as soon as I got the cash I secured a 65V10 and an Oppo 83 and now I have a beautiful TV that won't be liquidated because of a financial train wreck.
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post #14 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Techniwizard View Post

There's a better chance that Antarctica will completely thaw. LOL

TW

On Al Gore's payroll are we?
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post #15 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 06:55 AM
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BTW-something to think about in regards to "3D ready" when those sets come out:
Make sure there is an industry (not manufacturer) standard for this as there's no small chance that you will/might get burned by the time the adapters are actually on the market. We sold lots of "HD ready" sets back in the day before there any HD adapters on the market and a couple of manufacturers (Mitsubishi + RCA/Proscan) got it wrong, effectively rendering the upgrade capability useless.
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post #16 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity View Post

Those individuals who are interested in watching 3D TV may be best off to wait until Automultiscopic displays become available.

I suspect this feature is more marketing hype than anything else where those who buy a 3D TV now will pay a premium for a feature they won't use too often or for most, not at all.

Thanks for that link, very interesting. As for folks paying for 3D and rarely if ever using it reminds me of people that buy HDTV's and never watching HD. It happens. Still, from claims made from manufacturers, 2D viewing benefits from a 3D TV w/faster response times and maybe a few other advantages not available for "normal" HDTV's. Remains to be seen if this is in fact true, so I'm adopting a "wait & see" approach.
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post #17 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rockytt View Post

BTW-something to think about in regards to "3D ready" when those sets come out:
Make sure there is an industry (not manufacturer) standard for this as there's no small chance that you will/might get burned by the time the adapters are actually on the market. We sold lots of "HD ready" sets back in the day before there any HD adapters on the market and a couple of manufacturers (Mitsubishi + RCA/Proscan) got it wrong, effectively rendering the upgrade capability useless.

i thought that all 3D bluray discs will be compatible with all new 3D tvs? same with the directv thing, i thought they would be compatible with all new 3D tvs too? is this not true?
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post #18 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Triple View Post

If the previous trend continues you'll be waiting more than another month for the 65VT25 since the bigger panels usually don't show up till mid to late summer. If the 65VT25 was going to be out by March I too would have put a hold on the 65V10 and waited.

Apparently, you didn't read the press release; they are promising the entire VT25 series in Spring (which is 21 March to 21 June). Panasonic is usually very good about product release promises; typically accurate (or ~2 weeks late or early).

Their promise is almost 2 mos. earlier than last year, assuming they use the entire Spring to roll out the entire line. However, they just might surprise us, and roll them out differently this year; we shall see.
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post #19 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Triple View Post

If the previous trend continues you'll be waiting more than another month for the 65VT25 since the bigger panels usually don't show up till mid to late summer. If the 65VT25 was going to be out by March I too would have put a hold on the 65V10 and waited.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

Apparently, you didn't read the press release; they are promising the entire VT25 series in Spring (which is 21 March to 21 June). Panasonic is usually very good about product release promises; typically accurate (or ~2 weeks late or early).

Their promise is almost 2 mos. earlier than last year, assuming they use the entire Spring to roll out the entire line. However, they just might surprise us, and roll them out differently this year; we shall see.

I minced my thoughts, my order says the 65V10 is expected to ship in Feb. I waited a month for CES (but truthfully wouldn't have been able to order beforehand anyway as Panasonic disallowed it because it was so heavily back-ordered).

I don't necessarily believe the 65VT25 will be out in March, but I am looking/hoping for pricing information before that. I do think they will be the whole VT line out in the Spring as the press releases say though. A welcomed side effect of the push for 3D in my opinion. I don't think Panasonic will wait to ship the 58" and 65" in Aug/Sept. like previous years.
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post #20 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

Apparently, you didn't read the press release; they are promising the entire VT25 series in Spring (which is 21 March to 21 June). Panasonic is usually very good about product release promises; typically accurate (or ~2 weeks late or early).

Their promise is almost 2 mos. earlier than last year, assuming they use the entire Spring to roll out the entire line. However, they just might surprise us, and roll them out differently this year; we shall see.

I'm not sure why you say they are usually very good about release estimates. You could search and find at least hundreds of posts to the contrary this year. The larger size V10's for example originally listed June on their website, then July, then still July even as August rolled around and they still weren't released.

I'm not saying they are bad, but they certainly aren't exceptionally accurate either. It would also be unique in their recent history if they really get their largest size panels out before Summer. Anything is possible though. I just wouldn't count on it.
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post #21 of 28 Old 01-14-2010, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

I'm not sure why you say they are usually very good about release estimates. You could search and find at least hudreds of posts to the contrart, this year alone. The larger size V10's for example originally listed June on their website, then July, then still July even as August rolled around and they still weren't released.

Yeah, the PF12UKs were delayed for almost two months
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post #22 of 28 Old 01-15-2010, 04:26 AM
 
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Thanks for that link, very interesting. As for folks paying for 3D and rarely if ever using it reminds me of people that buy HDTV's and never watching HD. It happens.

My brother in-law bought a 50PX50U during 12/05, which sits on its stand in the lower level of his raised ranch style house while the family generally watches a 36" analog (w/TWC) CRT TV in their LR on the main level of the house. After 4 years their PDP has ~300 - 400 hours of operation on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy View Post

Still, from claims made from manufacturers, 2D viewing benefits from a 3D TV w/faster response times and maybe a few other advantages not available for "normal" HDTV's. Remains to be seen if this is in fact true, so I'm adopting a "wait & see" approach.

If I was in the market for a new display and considering buying a Panasonic PDP I suppose this press announcement would be of interest:

"5,000,000:1 high contrast
Infinite Black Pro

A native contrast ratio of 5,000,000:1 enables VIERA to display extremely robust blacks. A new panel and improvements to the cell discharge area dramatically increase contrast when viewing in brightly lit locations. And reducing the electrical pre-discharge that causes greying has greatly enhanced black gradation. As a result, deep, rich blacks are displayed in virtually any viewing area, from living rooms to bedrooms. Even in dark film scenes, fine textures such as on clothing, are clearly reproduced
."

Here I am w/the WAF watching our new 3D TV:



(OK, that pic of us was taken 20 years ago)
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post #23 of 28 Old 01-15-2010, 09:15 AM
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I'm keeping my Samsung PN42A450 (3D Capable) and waiting to see if it will work with whatever 3D the PS3 puts out.

I'm not willing to go through the hassle of running all 3D junk from a computer, but once there is 3D media available on BR and the PS3 can output it, I'll likely buy the transmitter and glasses.

If/when it is available on cable I'll already be set.
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post #24 of 28 Old 01-17-2010, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tlh1005 View Post

I minced my thoughts, my order says the 65V10 is expected to ship in Feb. I waited a month for CES (but truthfully wouldn't have been able to order beforehand anyway as Panasonic disallowed it because it was so heavily back-ordered).

I don't necessarily believe the 65VT25 will be out in March, but I am looking/hoping for pricing information before that. I do think they will be the whole VT line out in the Spring as the press releases say though. A welcomed side effect of the push for 3D in my opinion. I don't think Panasonic will wait to ship the 58" and 65" in Aug/Sept. like previous years.

I don't think so either. If they stagger the line, as usual, it would be last, along with the 58" TV; but they could do any number of roll-out schedules. Don't count on pricing more than 30 days ahead of time, as they promised.

I was thinking the same thing about 3D and the schedule before CES. When I heard they would be including 3D, I thought there was a chance of an earlier release schedule, and the talk of the V10 series being discontinued soon, then seemed more likely to be true. Now, we see that this scenario is true.
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post #25 of 28 Old 01-17-2010, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

I'm not sure why you say they are usually very good about release estimates. You could search and find at least hundreds of posts to the contrary this year. The larger size V10's for example originally listed June on their website, then July, then still July even as August rolled around and they still weren't released.

Apparently, my recollection wasn't quite accurate. I don't recall the 58" and 65" being scheduled for June, but apparently they were. I looked at the Panasonic V10 thread, and the first posts confirming availability were both by Clev. Plasma; the 58" on 12 Aug., and the 65" on 19 Aug. So, yes, if they should have been released by 30 June, then they were ~6 and ~7 weeks late, respectively; not ~2 weeks, as I had thought.

Quote:


I'm not saying they are bad, but they certainly aren't exceptionally accurate either.

Yes, I guess I would say they are ok, when it comes to accuracy.

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It would also be unique in their recent history if they really get their largest size panels out before Summer. Anything is possible though. I just wouldn't count on it.

Yes, it would indeed, though that is what they are promising, so we'll just have to wait and see.
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post #26 of 28 Old 01-17-2010, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Citivas View Post

I'm not sure why you say they are usually very good about release estimates. You could search and find at least hundreds of posts to the contrary this year. The larger size V10's for example originally listed June on their website, then July, then still July even as August rolled around and they still weren't released.

I'm not saying they are bad, but they certainly aren't exceptionally accurate either. It would also be unique in their recent history if they really get their largest size panels out before Summer. Anything is possible though. I just wouldn't count on it.

Perhaps Panasonic can afford to be a bit more confident in their announcing release dates because of this: http://hd.engadget.com/2009/12/28/pa...asma-plant-yet
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post #27 of 28 Old 01-17-2010, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by optivity View Post

...
Here I am w/the WAF watching our new 3D TV:



(OK, that pic of us was taken 20 years ago)

And those seats behind you are just the wallpaper on the wall and the two of you are watching a 42" TV. LOL
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post #28 of 28 Old 01-17-2010, 10:28 PM
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I am remodeling and don't have a TV right now. I will be buying a TV in the next few weeks. I was going to buy a Panasonic TH 65PF12UK. Now with all the 3D hype, I'm not sure what to do, buy a cheap TV and see what happens, or buy the Panasonic as planned.

1) What's the real difference between a 3D ready TV and a regular TV. Information seems sketchy and/or unavailable. I found this article but it seems weak.


Difference is that the 3D tv's have processors specifically made to process the two images to create the 3D effect. If the TV is not 3D ready it will not do 3D.
wired.co.uk/news/archive/2010-01/08/panasonic-explains-why-you-need-a-new-tv-for-3d.aspx

2) Would the Panasonic TH 65PF12UK be 3D ready? It supports 1080p60. It also has upgradable plug-in-boards that might be able to be used to upgrade to HDMI 1.4. Also, since the TV can handle dual HD-SDI input I'm pretty sure it could handle the 3D bandwidth requirements?

I can't say for sure, but the answer is probably not.

3) When people mention 3D and 1080p120, do they really mean 120 progressive frames per second, or are they getting confused with 60 interlaced frames per second with 120 fields?

They just mean it's 1080p and 60HZ for each eye so 120HZ

4) What's the difference between HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 when it relates to 3D? This article on Wikipedia (I know Wikipedia is not an "end all" source) shows that the bandwidth is the same for 1.3 and 1.4 but specifically shows that 1.3 cannot do 3D.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI

1.4 has "dual stream" capabilities. They have the same bandwidth but only HDMI 1.4 can do 1080P 3D images. HDMI 1.3 CAN DO 3D but it will only do 1080i, not 1080p

5) What does it mean to have a TV that has dual drivers and is capable of dual scan?

not a clue
Any help will be most appreciated!

Thanks,
Chris
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