Beware of these early 3D projectors... they will need HDMI 1.4 to work with PS3 in 3D - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Just so nobody buys any of these new 3D projectors thinking they will work with the PS3 in 3D. If you're buying a projector that has 3D capabilities and you want it to work with the PS3 in relation 3D, then you're going to "NEED" hdmi 1.4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xumhT...layer_embedded

watch the end of that video to find out the deal.


I was all set to maybe buy the Acer H5360 when it came stateside, but if it doesn't have HDMI 1.4, I'm not going anywhere near it. Nor any other projector that claims 3D capabilities.


Just for clarification: When I talk about working with the PS3 in 3D, I'm talking about the special 3D firmware upgrade that is coming this summer, and the 3D Blu Ray firmware upgrade that is coming later in 2010. Both apparently will require a 3Dtv with hdmi 1.4 . You can play current stereo games like James Cameron's Avatar and Invincible Tiger: The Legend of Han Tao, but you won't likely be able to play all the other games that Sony has planned.
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post #2 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 04:34 PM
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False.

If you want 3D in full 1080p then you will need 1.4

But it will still work without.
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post #3 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 04:44 PM
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Honestly at this point it's all speculation as none of this is here as of yet, once we have capable gear in hand then we can say for certain what will and what will not work. I do not buy into any of what has been stated so far, I think the best (safest) approach regarding 3D is simply 'wait-n-see'.

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post #4 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 05:35 PM
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I didn't think the ps3 has 1.4 either.

What a mess this is going to be. Can you imagine how confused the public is going to be when they want to watch Avatar in 3D only to find out that their display, Blu-ray player, receiver, and possibly even cables might need replacing!

It's hard enough for us enthusiasts to keep up, the general public is going to be frustrated quickly I think.
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post #5 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthejoker20 View Post

False.

If you want 3D in full 1080p then you will need 1.4

But it will still work without.

Unfortunately, no. Watch the video. At the end of the video, the Sony guy says that the TV will need to be hdmi 1.4. That's straight from the horses mouth. While things could possibly change between now and Summer (when the 3D Bravias launch, and the firmware update becomes available), that's their current plans. They want to force people into buying new Bravias with 1.4
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post #6 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

I didn't think the ps3 has 1.4 either.


You're right. The PS3 doesn't have hdmi 1.4 . However with the firmware update that Sony is going to provide in the Summer (with the launch of their 3D Bravias), the firmware will update via software the hdmi port to allow as much of the hdmi 1.4 spec that the PS3 is capable of without physically changing out the hardware. Watch this video that explains everything about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLeOx...layer_embedded

Basically, the PS3 still won't be 100 percent compliant with hdmi 1.4, but it will be compliant with enough of it for their 3D software to work the way they need it to. The biggest downside to the whole thing is that they are requiring the displays to have 1.4 . I honestly question as to whether or not this is any kind of technical requirement, or more of a situation in which they are going to force people who already have 3D enabled displays (like me), to have to buy a brand new 1.4 set to enjoy it. It really sucks, but would you expect anything different from Sony?
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post #7 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 09:05 PM
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It looks like you only need hdmi 1.4 for 3D and lossless audio codec's on the same cable. Panasonic's new 3D Blu ray player the DMP-BDT350 just uses 2 1.3 outputs. One for the display one for your reciever. So in the worst case for ps3 3D you can run the hdmi cable to the projector and use the optical output and settle for lossy audio. Best case with new firmware Sony will be able to get both with at most a new 1.4 hdmi cable. I doubt that the PS3 get's all the 1.4 upgrades like the 100mbit ethernet channel and 4k x 2k support.
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post #8 of 74 Old 01-13-2010, 11:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD_2020 View Post

It looks like you only need hdmi 1.4 for 3D and lossless audio codec's on the same cable. Panasonic's new 3D Blu ray player the DMP-BDT350 just uses 2 1.3 outputs. One for the display one for your reciever. So in the worst case for ps3 3D you can run the hdmi cable to the projector and use the optical output and settle for lossy audio. Best case with new firmware Sony will be able to get both with at most a new 1.4 hdmi cable. I doubt that the PS3 get's all the 1.4 upgrades like the 100mbit ethernet channel and 4k x 2k support.


I think it's wishful thinking on your part if you think Sony will allow you to connect it to a 3D ready TV with hdmi 1.3, and that it will work fine. I understand what you're talking about with the lossless audio, and that you'd have to use the optical output, but I just don't think this is the way Sony operates. They aren't the type of company to give you extra options like that. They are the type to say that it requires a TV with HDMI 1.4, and that's the end of it.

I'm hoping that maybe somehow that isn't the case, but I seriously doubt it.
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post #9 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 04:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD_2020 View Post

It looks like you only need hdmi 1.4 for 3D and lossless audio codec's on the same cable. Panasonic's new 3D Blu ray player the DMP-BDT350 just uses 2 1.3 outputs. One for the display one for your reciever. So in the worst case for ps3 3D you can run the hdmi cable to the projector and use the optical output and settle for lossy audio. Best case with new firmware Sony will be able to get both with at most a new 1.4 hdmi cable. I doubt that the PS3 get's all the 1.4 upgrades like the 100mbit ethernet channel and 4k x 2k support.

Interesting,
the HDMI 1.4 chipset (from Analog Devices) is already available for a while, so I would expect that new players will support 1.4 at hardware layer.
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post #10 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 06:50 AM
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There is still so much undecided in regards to 3D! Mainly the format, which is an important aspect.

While watching the movie Avatar on IMAX 3D, I was noticing a lot of 'ghosting'. Ghosting occurs with you can see both left and right eye images with one eye, and creates a double view of objects out of perspective. Kind of like watching the movie without glasses, but not as bad. I was like "What the Fu" Then I tilted my head left and right.. Viola.. IMAX is using linearly polarized glasses (by Polaroid).

IMAX has really lost their luster in the past few years. I can't believe they are using a linear H/V system.
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post #11 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 09:27 AM
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Of course Sony would INSIST you have a "certified hdmi 1.4" display, they have to sell new equipment somehow.

If the firmware update includes a check routine that examines the display edid for 1.4 compliance, then you just insert a device that will show the proper edid.

What is the 1.4 certification really indicating your display is capable of? That's the only thing that matters. A 1.4 label means it passed the test. I'n sure there are many displays already capable of passing it.
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post #12 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconlabtech View Post

Of course Sony would INSIST you have a "certified hdmi 1.4" display, they have to sell new equipment somehow.

If the firmware update includes a check routine that examines the display edid for 1.4 compliance, then you just insert a device that will show the proper edid.

What is the 1.4 certification really indicating your display is capable of? That's the only thing that matters. A 1.4 label means it passed the test. I'n sure there are many displays already capable of passing it.

I'm not so sure about all of that, but the good news is that at least one of the early sellers of 3D displays is stepping up to the plate for their early adopters. Mitsubishi is going to sell a special converter box that will allow their early 3D ready displays to work with the new 3D Blu Ray players, and other devices. It's called the 3DC-1000, and it's expected to be released in the Spring.

http://www.electronichouse.com/artic...apter_for_tvs/

It's possible that Samsung, another manufacturer that sold alot of "3D Ready" TV's early on could make a similar device for their customers.
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post #13 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

You're right. The PS3 doesn't have hdmi 1.4 . However with the firmware update that Sony is going to provide in the Summer (with the launch of their 3D Bravias), the firmware will update via software the hdmi port to allow as much of the hdmi 1.4 spec that the PS3 is capable of without physically changing out the hardware. Watch this video that explains everything about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLeOx...layer_embedded

Basically, the PS3 still won't be 100 percent compliant with hdmi 1.4, but it will be compliant with enough of it for their 3D software to work the way they need it to. The biggest downside to the whole thing is that they are requiring the displays to have 1.4 . I honestly question as to whether or not this is any kind of technical requirement, or more of a situation in which they are going to force people who already have 3D enabled displays (like me), to have to buy a brand new 1.4 set to enjoy it. It really sucks, but would you expect anything different from Sony?

That is exactly what I was speculating about in a few other threads the last couple of weeks. Great find - thank you for posting this
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post #14 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 11:06 AM
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This is GREAT news.

The if the PS3 really can be, for all practical purposes, made to deliver HDMI 1.4 communication in regards to 3D, we're set.

Hopefully that signal will work uncorrupted even when sent between intermediary (switching/receiver) devices.

For "3D ready" displays that don't have HDMI 1.4, I would assume that converter boxes will be availble to accept the discrete left/right HD and pack it in whatever way your particular device expects (over/under, side-by-side, whatever).

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #15 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSensFan View Post

There is still so much undecided in regards to 3D! Mainly the format, which is an important aspect.

While watching the movie Avatar on IMAX 3D, I was noticing a lot of 'ghosting'. Ghosting occurs with you can see both left and right eye images with one eye, and creates a double view of objects out of perspective. Kind of like watching the movie without glasses, but not as bad. I was like "What the Fu…" Then I tilted my head left and right.. Viola.. IMAX is using linearly polarized glasses (by Polaroid).

IMAX has really lost their luster in the past few years…. I can't believe they are using a linear H/V system.

I noticed the same thing in an Avatar IMAX showing, after watching it twice at RealD theaters. The IMAX glasses they gave me also had different color tint for each eye & I wondered if they used both linear polarization and color to separate the two video image streams. In any case, I preferred the RealD 3D presentation of Avatar, a little bit.
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post #16 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 12:58 PM
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*sigh* I give up! This is just impossible....why can't they stop harrassing us, audio/video junkies like myself, who just want to enjoy their gear without feeling so ancient with ONLY their HDMI 1.3 and 7.2 surround systems....

I am taking a stand!! I am throwing out my satellite system, HD TV and going back to my black and white TV with rabbit ears!
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post #17 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 01:27 PM
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I don't see why you couldn't use a 3d hdmi 1.4 display and br player with a hdmi1.3 receiver or pre pro? Just run hdmi from the br player to a splitter that sends one hdmi directly to the display and another hdmi directly to the receiver or pre pro. It is not as if audio is 3d and needs hdmi 1.4. An hdmi 1.3 receiver would only hold you back if you run video through it.


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post #18 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

I don't see why you couldn't use a 3d hdmi 1.4 display and br player with a hdmi1.3 receiver or pre pro? Just run hdmi from the br player to a splitter that sends one hdmi directly to the display and another hdmi directly to the receiver or pre pro. It is not as if audio is 3d and needs hdmi 1.4. An hdmi 1.3 receiver would only hold you back if you run video through it.

According to Steve Venturi of HDMI, you'll be able to send out an "HDMI 1.4 3D video spec" signal over HDMI 1.3 out of the PS3. If run through an audio decoder, the audio signal should be in tact as well. Of course, the video signal must get through your HDMI 1.3 pre/pro/switcher in tact on its way to the HDMI 1.4 display, and hopefully that won't be a problem for most users.

Some 3D BD players will actually have dual HDMI output so users can direct-run HDMI 1.4 to the display and run HDMI 1.3 for audio (and 2D picture?) to the rest of the system.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #19 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 04:08 PM
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There was no ghosting on the Real 3D presentation in the XD theater at Cinemark. And yes I have expereinced this at an IMAX before - not sure how they differ but the screen sizes are the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSensFan View Post

There is still so much undecided in regards to 3D! Mainly the format, which is an important aspect.

While watching the movie Avatar on IMAX 3D, I was noticing a lot of 'ghosting'. Ghosting occurs with you can see both left and right eye images with one eye, and creates a double view of objects out of perspective. Kind of like watching the movie without glasses, but not as bad. I was like "What the Fu" Then I tilted my head left and right.. Viola.. IMAX is using linearly polarized glasses (by Polaroid).

IMAX has really lost their luster in the past few years. I can't believe they are using a linear H/V system.

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post #20 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Just run hdmi from the br player to a splitter that sends one hdmi directly to the display and another hdmi directly to the receiver or pre pro.

There are HDMI switches, but splitters violate the spec. Defeats the whole HDCP handshake thing.

Some may exist, but most products with 2 HDMI outputs can only have one active at a time. They may have amended the spec to allow video out of 1 and audio out the other, but not to allow two active with both signals at once.
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post #21 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 07:42 PM
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Quote:


There is still so much undecided in regards to 3D! Mainly the format, which is an important aspect.

I'd like to ask that people stop saying this without qualifying what they mean.

Are you talking about a transmission protocol over HDMI? If so, then we have a standard over HDMI 1.4, but we don't have a standard over HDMI 1.3 because HDMI 1.3 is already standardized (though a defacto-agreement among manufacturers about a common way to ship full 1920 x 1080 x 2 over HDMI 1.3 would be a very good thing... agreed on that point).

Are you talking about the methodology of the display device to deliver the image? If so, then we DO NOT WANT a "standard" any more than we'd want to suggest that we should have only LCD, or Plasma, or DLP projection or LCOS. Every 3D display methodology has pros and cons... there are advantages to polarized light and disadvantages. there are advantages to LCD shutter glasses and disadvantages. If there is and arguable standard to push for on the display-side of the 3D equation, it might be interoperability between active shutter glasses and displays... so you could take any glasses to anyone's house and sync up. But the display side has a lot to evolve, and there's no reason to restrict display methodology at this point in product development.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #22 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon B View Post

There are HDMI switches, but splitters violate the spec. Defeats the whole HDCP handshake thing.

Some may exist, but most products with 2 HDMI outputs can only have one active at a time. They may have amended the spec to allow video out of 1 and audio out the other, but not to allow two active with both signals at once.

I have an Octava HDMI Matrix switcher. It can send any of 4 inputs to any of 4 outputs in any combination. You can send 1 source to up to 4 displays at the same time. It's HDMI 1.3, though, but a similar device should be able to send one output to a 3D display and one to an AVR. Of course, who knows if that would work. A player that has 2 HDMI outputs would solve the problem, but I'd prefer to use my PS3, my existing cabling and my Denon 3808. Hopefully, we'll get the answers to these questions in the next few months.

The one glitch I've had with the otherwise flawless Octava switcher is with a Sony LCD in the mix. A friend of mine has HDMI issues only between his Sony AVR and a Sony Pearl, and Sony tech support informed him the two devices don't play well together. Good to confirm that Sony is lowest common denominator in these HDMI math problems.

Despite the 3D problems we'll face, I can't wait for 3D in my home. It's a long time dream of mine.

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post #23 of 74 Old 01-14-2010, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post


Some 3D BD players will actually have dual HDMI output so users can direct-run HDMI 1.4 to the display and run HDMI 1.3 for audio (and 2D picture?) to the rest of the system.

That is great I dont have to worry about upgrading my 885 atleast.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #24 of 74 Old 01-15-2010, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I'd like to ask that people stop saying this without qualifying what they mean.

Are you talking about a transmission protocol over HDMI? If so, then we have a standard over HDMI 1.4, but we don't have a standard over HDMI 1.3 because HDMI 1.3 is already standardized (though a defacto-agreement among manufacturers about a common way to ship full 1920 x 1080 x 2 over HDMI 1.3 would be a very good thing... agreed on that point).

Are you talking about the methodology of the display device to deliver the image? If so, then we DO NOT WANT a "standard" any more than we'd want to suggest that we should have only LCD, or Plasma, or DLP projection or LCOS. Every 3D display methodology has pros and cons... there are advantages to polarized light and disadvantages. there are advantages to LCD shutter glasses and disadvantages. If there is and arguable standard to push for on the display-side of the 3D equation, it might be interoperability between active shutter glasses and displays... so you could take any glasses to anyone's house and sync up. But the display side has a lot to evolve, and there's no reason to restrict display methodology at this point in product development.

I've read that Mitsubishi will introduce an adapter to convert output from a 3D Blu-ray player so that it will work in 3D capable rear projection TVs they've sold over the last few years. As long as they don't make it too expensive, it could help jump start 3D. It may not be a huge installed base, but add Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP sets together (if both can deliver relatively cheap adapters) and it's a good start. The key is if they don't charge too much for the adapters.

Although my ultimate goal is to have a front projection 3D theater, I might consider getting a Mitsubishi rear projector with an adapter for a bedroom (as long as the adapters aren't too expensive). That would tide me over, especially since the number of 3D movie titles will be limited for quite a while.

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post #25 of 74 Old 01-15-2010, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I've read that Mitsubishi will introduce an adapter to convert output from a 3D Blu-ray player so that it will work in 3D capable rear projection TVs they've sold over the last few years. As long as they don't make it too expensive, it could help jump start 3D. It may not be a huge installed base, but add Mitsubishi and Samsung DLP sets together (if both can deliver relatively cheap adapters) and it's a good start. The key is if they don't charge too much for the adapters.

Although my ultimate goal is to have a front projection 3D theater, I might consider getting a Mitsubishi rear projector with an adapter for a bedroom (as long as the adapters aren't too expensive). That would tide me over, especially since the number of 3D movie titles will be limited for quite a while.

Hey Joe,

those "3D ready" Mits sets are not necessarily providing full 1920 x 1080 stereo in 3D mode. Please don't rush to get one until all the facts are known.... if it's not true stereo 1920 x 1080p 3D resolution, it's not really 3D HD. Also, the rate of left/right eye sequencing may also not be fast enough to avoid flicker for some viewers, but that may be true for other 3D products as well.

In any case, no one should blindly buy any of these 3D "ready" products that came to market before the HDMI 1.4 spec was finalized as they may not even be true HD 3D performers.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #26 of 74 Old 01-15-2010, 08:54 AM
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Hi David,

Just curious why you say that about the Mitsu sets and why it's not known already, since the tvs have been sold and apparently are still being sold now (so the specs on what they can or can't do should be known right)?

Now, I don't ask b/c I have a Mitsu, but b/c I have a Samsung HL61A750 that I just got last year, and I had ABSOLUTELY NO idea about it doing 3D at the time. Then after Avatar and CES I started looking into it, and was pleased to find out that since it's 120Hz (which I believe translate to 60Hz for each eye with 3D and active shutter tech), it apparently can do 3D if I get the glasses and connect a computer to it (with DVI-HD) to send 3D signals to the TV...

And as far as I knew, it would be a true stereo 1920x1080p 3D, as I hadn't read anything other than that. Now in my case, I already have the tv and am looking at getting a $150-200 kit with glasses to make 3D work, but would definitely be interested in at least knowing if it's not full 3D, and why. Thanks for any info on the subject!
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post #27 of 74 Old 01-15-2010, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Hey Joe,

those "3D ready" Mits sets are not necessarily providing full 1920 x 1080 stereo in 3D mode. Please don't rush to get one until all the facts are known.... if it's not true stereo 1920 x 1080p 3D resolution, it's not really 3D HD. Also, the rate of left/right eye sequencing may also not be fast enough to avoid flicker for some viewers, but that may be true for other 3D products as well.

In any case, no one should blindly buy any of these 3D "ready" products that came to market before the HDMI 1.4 spec was finalized as they may not even be true HD 3D performers.

Thanks, Dave. I am aware that there are no guarantees. As a matter of fact, I posted something to that effect in another thread recently. I mention there that the fine print in the ad for Mitsubishi's high end laser rear projector warns that it may not be compatible with whatever 3D standard is set (such as the recently announced Blu-ray standard).

I did read, though, that Mitsubishi has announced that it would introduce an adapter that would convert whatever that standard is (over under, side by side, or something else) to be compatible with the Mitsubishi. Of course, we read reports like that now, but we may learn ultimately that it isn't true, or, as you suggests, that it works but that it gives everyone migraines.

I'm going to be cautious, but I'm also anxious to get into 3D at home. I'll probably be among the early adopters for 3D technology. Had there been even a handful of movies that worked with the older Mits or Sammy DLPs, I probably would have bought one a couple of years ago.

It seemed almost comical to me that they were promoting these 3D TVs when not even a single movie that utilized the technology was available. I was reminded by someone in yet another thread that gamers have embraced 3D for some time, and that those Mits and Sammy sets could be used with nVidia gaming cards on a PC. He also said (IIRC) that sales of games had actually surpassed sales of movies for the first time. Great, but since I've played exactly 0 video games in the last 20 years, it was of little benefit to me.

We certainly aren't guaranteed that this 3D push will succeed any more than any other attempt to bring the technology into the mainstream. I am hopeful, though. The technology is feasible now, and a number of heavy hitters in both consumer electronics and the film industry really believe in it this time around. For me, it's the most exciting thing to happen since HD.

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post #28 of 74 Old 01-15-2010, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by keltraine View Post

Hi David,

Just curious why you say that about the Mitsu sets and why it's not known already, since the tvs have been sold and apparently are still being sold now (so the specs on what they can or can't do should be known right)?

I've heard others say that the Mistu isn't set up to do true stereo 1080p, but since I don't have one myself I can't confirm. Hence my warning to be sure before buying!

Quote:


Now, I don't ask b/c I have a Mitsu, but b/c I have a Samsung HL61A750 that I just got last year, and I had ABSOLUTELY NO idea about it doing 3D at the time. Then after Avatar and CES I started looking into it, and was pleased to find out that since it's 120Hz (which I believe translate to 60Hz for each eye with 3D and active shutter tech), it apparently can do 3D if I get the glasses and connect a computer to it (with DVI-HD) to send 3D signals to the TV...

And as far as I knew, it would be a true stereo 1920x1080p 3D, as I hadn't read anything other than that. Now in my case, I already have the tv and am looking at getting a $150-200 kit with glasses to make 3D work, but would definitely be interested in at least knowing if it's not full 3D, and why. Thanks for any info on the subject!

That sounds awesome. And HDMI 1.3 technically can do 1080p120 (two 1080p60 signals) so as long as the bandwidth of the cable and components are good, it will work if that's how your TV is expecting to receive a 3D signal.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #29 of 74 Old 01-15-2010, 11:20 AM
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The Mitsubishi's use a checkerboard system to do 3D which I believe inherently limits the resolution to less than full HD (unless the actual display panel is much higher-resolution than 1920X1080, which I seriously doubt).

I would bet that the resolution of 3D when converted to work on the Mits sets will be basically 540p (effectively DVD resolution). But I am no expert so take this with the appropriate grain of salt.
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post #30 of 74 Old 01-15-2010, 11:34 AM
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It always bothered me that the ads for the Mits and Sammy products failed to say that there was no accepted standard for 3D movies. Of course, that's been true for any manufacturer of 3D displays in the past. As always, it's buyer beware.

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