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post #91 of 116 Old 03-18-2010, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

If 3D conversion is just "wrong" then most of those 3D movies you saw at the theatre, since most are converted from 2D to 3D, must look "wrong" as well. No? My understanding is that Avatar, being filmed in 3D, is an exception to the general rule, although, no doubt, there must be others - Alice in Wonderland not being one of them. Are these "3D converted" films that much "better" than the on the fly 3D converted films we'll see on some T.V.s? I'm very curious to see 3D conversion for myself, and yes, I am skeptical.

Although I appreciate 3D cinema from all eras, my primary love is for the "Golden Age" of Hollywood 3D, which ran from (approximately) 1953 to 1955, and in which approximately 50 feature length 3D motion pictures were filmed and exhibited in the US. One of the great things about this era was that Hollywood was not afraid to apply the technology to multiple genres -- everything from musicals (Kiss Me Kate, Those Redheads from Seattle), drama (Dial M for Murder, Inferno), westerns (Hondo, Gun Fury), film noir (Glass Web, I the Jury), monster classics (Creature from the Black Lagoon, It Came from Outer Space), comedy (Three Stooges), cartoons (Bugs Bunny, Popeye, Wood Woodpecker), etc., etc. None of these employed synthesized 3D.

Contrast this era to the current one where "live action" titles like Avatar and Journey to the Center of the Earth are the exception rather then the norm, and the vast majority of 3D films are CGI cartoons. And before anyone flames me, there is nothing wrong with 3D CGI cartoons. I love them. I just think 3D can be effective in any genre, and I'd like to see Hollywood branch out across genres like they did in the 50s.

And, no, most of my theatrical 3D experiences have not been with 2D/3D conversions.

I do expect more 3D conversions to emerge, however, given the success of titles like Alice and Titans.

But just because technology makes something possible, doesn't make it desirable. When I look at the colorized Blu-ray of It's a Wonderful Life, I have to admit it's an astonishing technical achievement. Colorization technology has improved exponentially since its inception. But it's still wrong in this context. It changes the mood of the film; it changes the way I feel when I watch it; it changes the film's soul. 2D/3D conversion is the same thing in my book.

As much as I love 3D, not everything needs to be in 3D. It really doesn't.
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post #92 of 116 Old 03-18-2010, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post

Although I appreciate 3D cinema from all eras, my primary love is for the "Golden Age" of Hollywood 3D, ...

Perhaps "Taza, Son of Cochise", or any of the others listed here?

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post #93 of 116 Old 03-18-2010, 09:21 AM
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Perhaps "Taza, Son of Cochise", or any of the others listed here?

Absolutely!
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post #94 of 116 Old 03-18-2010, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Are these "3D converted" films that much "better" than the on the fly 3D converted films we'll see on some T.V.s? I'm very curious to see 3D conversion for myself, and yes, I am skeptical.

They should be "better" for the following reasons:
  • The parameters of conversion are customized for each scene (no algorithm running with generalized parameters.
  • IIf the director does not like the "look" of the conversion of a scene, they can go back and do it again.
  • A whole lot more processing power is available for doing the converion in the studio as opposed to what is built in the set.
  • CGI scenes (I understand the majority of material in Alice) can be easily generated in 3D.

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post #95 of 116 Old 03-18-2010, 07:08 PM
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Thought I'd convey some initial impressions of the Samsung 7000's 2D to 3D conversion. I took 4 movies to Best Buy for a look see. The guys at the store don't seem to mind letting me experiment to my heart's content. They want to watch 3D and understand the technology as much as I do. Unless a customer comes in and wants to watch, though, the glasses stay locked up and safe.

I took the new Star Trek, Coral Reef Adventure (documentary shot originally in IMAX), Twister and the filmed stage play of Rent, the musical. Results were all over the place.

First of all, extra pairs of shutter glasses sitting on the display table interfered with the LCD shutter glasses I was wearing - despite the fact that they were in an unopened package and turned off. The Samsung rep told the Best Buy employees that it was a known bug. My glasses switched off and on randomly, wreaking havoc with the viewing experience. Only when we removed the other display glasses did the shutter sync return to normal.

Second, the Samsung 7000 has 10 levels of conversion that can be applied. The lower the number, the less 3D effect you get. My impression, though, was that although the depth increased as you raised the conversion level, objects looked more like cardboard cutouts. The default of 5 seemed to provide the best balance.

At times the 3D effect is very convincing. Discerning viewers won't confuse it with real 3D, but it can work surprisingly well. Unfortunately, it's usually only for a few seconds at a time. Star Trek was all over the place in terms of how well the 3D effect came off. Sometimes it was close to the real thing. Then, there'd be a lens flare or reflection (tons of those in this movie). The conversion didn't handle that well at all. Foreground and background sometimes shifted positions in mid shot. Very disconcerting. Verdict: if you've really tied one on, you might be able to watch 2D>3D conversion in Star Trek until you pass out.

Coral Reef Adventure is a great IMAX film transfer. Generally speaking, the shots are slow and smooth. The 3D effect worked pretty well overall and could be quite convincing. Again, it wouldn't fool a discerning eye, but I believe I'd able to sit through the whole program at least once. One thing that did bother me was the appearance of some artifacts that looked almost like MPEG blocking - not there when I watch it in 2D. Verdict: as a novelty, you could probably sit through the whole thing. Definitely not for repeat viewing with 2D>3D conversion.

Twister is one of my favorite movies. I saw it at the theaters 4 times, so it's right up there with other films I'd consider myself obsessed with during their theatrical releases. Lots of scenes with people talking. Verdict: with a film I like so much, I'd have to be forced to watch more than just a few minutes of faux 3D in this film. As with most films like this, 2D to 3D conversion would be nothing more than a curiosity. I'd pick a few scenes at random just to see how they looked.

Rent surprised me. It was filmed on stage. It's a dark production, with stark contrast. Maybe that's what made it work best for me of all the films. It was probably most consistent because the backgrounds were so un-demanding. There wasn't a lot going on, and the background was not at all noisy. People, who tended to flatten out in the other movies, appeared to have more depth and looked more real. Verdict: I think I might be able to watch this movie all the way through with the conversion on.

Overall, 2D to 3D conversion is not something I'm going to want to watch a lot of, at least not on a 3D TV like the Samsung. It will be good for a couple of films, and always good for a demo to friends, or to remind yourself what you're missing by not having any real 3D to watch. It's just too inconsistent to be of much value.

I wonder what the Toshiba cell processor based 3D TVs will be able to do with 2D conversion. I wonder if Sony will implement some sort of conversion into the PS3, which is based on that same type of cell processor. I doubt it will be much better, but I'm still trying to keep an open mind. I know the next few months will provide me with more opportunities to take a close look at exciting new technology. I'm elated about that.

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post #96 of 116 Old 03-18-2010, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Thought I'd convey some initial impressions of the Samsung 7000's 2D to 3D conversion. ...

Thanks for the great report. I'll be on the lookout for your further reviews.

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post #97 of 116 Old 03-19-2010, 07:47 AM
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Thanks for the 2D to 3D conversion report. I'd like to see how animation looks with 3D conversion. With frame interpolation on high on my Epson projector many animated features look extremely 3D (more depth back into the screen without the gimmicky pop out effect). It would be interesting to see whether or not 3D conversion is a positive or negative compared to frame interpolation when used with animation.
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post #98 of 116 Old 03-19-2010, 08:44 AM
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Thought I'd convey some initial impressions of the Samsung 7000's 2D to 3D conversion. I took 4 movies to Best Buy for a look see.

Thanks for the update. I'd really like impressions of 2D->3D with live sporting events.

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post #99 of 116 Old 03-19-2010, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Thanks for the 2D to 3D conversion report. I'd like to see how animation looks with 3D conversion. With frame interpolation on high on my Epson projector many animated features look extremely 3D (more depth back into the screen without the gimmicky pop out effect). It would be interesting to see whether or not 3D conversion is a positive or negative compared to frame interpolation when used with animation.

Add video games to the list. I read a user review that gave games a thumbs up. Video games are a natural for the conversion and I'd like to hear more reports on how they fare with a Samsung TV.
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post #100 of 116 Old 03-19-2010, 04:11 PM
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Fry's will have their 3D Demo ready tommorow.....hope I am impressed
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post #101 of 116 Old 03-19-2010, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jbug View Post

Add video games to the list. I read a user review that gave games a thumbs up. Video games are a natural for the conversion and I'd like to hear more reports on how they fare with a Samsung TV.

Games that are done correctly look very good in 3D. The Avatar game looks amazing.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #102 of 116 Old 03-20-2010, 08:11 PM
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This post is def. out of place but ive used this thread before and response is very quick. I was planning on buying a 3D sammy sometime this week. Long story short, I realized im not a early adopting kind of guy. However, Im attending a friends and family special opening of a best buy this week and decided that nows the time to buy seeing as how I could get a great deal. Anyways, Does anyone know what the flat cost of a Samsung UNB8500 55' ( as in what best buy buys it for)? the discount that should be applied is that number plus 5%, which if below 3,000 I will definently be biting on.
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post #103 of 116 Old 03-20-2010, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aa84664p View Post

This post is def. out of place but ive used this thread before and response is very quick. I was planning on buying a 3D sammy sometime this week. Long story short, I realized im not a early adopting kind of guy. However, Im attending a friends and family special opening of a best buy this week and decided that nows the time to buy seeing as how I could get a great deal. Anyways, Does anyone know what the flat cost of a Samsung UNB8500 55' ( as in what best buy buys it for)? the discount that should be applied is that number plus 5%, which if below 3,000 I will definently be biting on.

You owe it to yourself to look at the Panasonic VT20 before you buy a Samsung 3D LCD TV. For me, the Samsung's crosstalk is a deal breaker. Crosstalk, or ghosting, means you may see ghostly double images (triple, really), especially in bright scenes. If you're as prone to seeing it as I am, you can't miss it in Monsters vs Aliens. It's obvious in the exterior church scene (look at the steeple) and in the Golden Gate Bridge battle. Look around the suspension cables. You'll see 3 cables - one real one and two "ghost" cables on either side.

I saw the Panasonic today and it had virtually no crosstalk. There may be other trade-offs with the Panasonic, and I'm certainly not recommending it without reservation. For me, though, the lack of crosstalk in the Panasonic makes it a better choice. Try to get a demo before you buy. The Panasonic is at all Magnolia stores, and at a few other Best Buy locations.

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post #104 of 116 Old 03-20-2010, 09:13 PM
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I saw absolutely 0 ghosting on Monsters vs Aliens.
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post #105 of 116 Old 03-21-2010, 01:28 PM
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Consumer Reports is seeing the same ghosting I'm seeing in their testing of 3D sets. Here's the link. It's possible it's a problem that's been fixed in some sets' firmware, as someone has posted. I wouldn't buy a Samsung LCD for that reason alone, unless I knew for sure the issue had been fixed.

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post #106 of 116 Old 03-21-2010, 04:34 PM
 
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Here is Cleveland Plasma's review the the 7000 LCD:

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/20...sung_unxxc7000
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post #107 of 116 Old 03-22-2010, 04:47 AM
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Amazing Link... Again Samsung reinforces my faith that they have the worst manufacturing on the Planet. Did you see the clouding on those panels ? Even Vizio doesn't have clouding like that. This seems to be a Samsung trademark these days and they didn't disappoint. Try to enjoy 3d on that baby...


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Consumer Reports is seeing the same ghosting I'm seeing in their testing of 3D sets. Here's the link. It's possible it's a problem that's been fixed in some sets' firmware, as someone has posted. I wouldn't buy a Samsung LCD for that reason alone, unless I knew for sure the issue had been fixed.

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post #108 of 116 Old 03-22-2010, 11:26 AM
 
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Blockbuster Expands Presence on Newest Samsung Blu-ray Players, TVs

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/blo...yers-tvs-18822
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post #109 of 116 Old 03-25-2010, 02:43 PM
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Just saw the demo - not perfect, but I'm impressed with both the 3D capabilities and the 2D to 3D conversion, at least with some material.
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post #110 of 116 Old 03-27-2010, 08:23 AM
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I watched 5 minutes of Monsters vs. Aliens 3D on the Samsung yesterday. In that 5 minutes of viewing, I noticed the ghosting issue several times and I wasn't even looking for it or aware of the issue until I read about it here!

On the positive side, the image had really good depth to it and the occasional scene really popped out at you. There was one scene where a weapon is pointed towards you and it looked like it was a couple of inches away from touching my nose.
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post #111 of 116 Old 03-27-2010, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by shiznit View Post

I watched 5 minutes of Monsters vs. Aliens 3D on the Samsung yesterday. In that 5 minutes of viewing, I noticed the ghosting issue several times and I wasn't even looking for it or aware of the issue until I read about it here!

On the positive side, the image had really good depth to it and the occasional scene really popped out at you. There was one scene where a weapon is pointed towards you and it looked like it was a couple of inches away from touching my nose.

There's a lot to like about the Samsung LCD TV. Maybe better glasses will eliminate the crosstalk. I'd love to be talking about other features, because MvsA looked really good on the TV to me if I took crosstalk out of the equation.

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post #112 of 116 Old 03-31-2010, 07:21 AM
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If you are going to buy Samsung LED. They have special offer, If you buy Samsung LED with Samsung Blu-ray disc you'll get free 3D starter kit.
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post #113 of 116 Old 04-01-2010, 04:06 PM
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I and a friend just had a chance to briefly preview a Samsung 3DTV at Futureshop here in Canada.

On the Samsung they were playing a Bell HD Satellite source when I first walked in. The movie was the Mummy Returns part III and the 2D picture quality was very good.
I asked one of the salespeople to switch on a 3D movie and they fired up the Aliens vs Monsters movie. They only had one of the 3D glasses out so I am my friend traded off between viewing.

I must say now I can see what the hype is about. The 3D effect was pretty good if you are standing dead center and even off to the side a little.
But eventually the colours would fade and wash out the more off center you moved. (This was also evident in the 2D mode.)

I liked the glasses themselves. The side piece blocked out the light from the periphery and gave a more immersive experience.

One thing I did notice about the glasses was that I had to have them firmly planted my your nose or else I could detect the fast on / off switching that was happening in the glasses.

Not bad at all... still a bit pricey up here compared to the US.

(I see the Panasonic 50" VT20 is out in the US Best Buy stores right now. Canadian Best Buys don't have the Panasonic listed yet.)
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post #114 of 116 Old 04-20-2010, 12:57 PM
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I just saw the 9000 at the Best Buy in Cherry Hill NJ, beautiful!!! Silver and only 8mm thick!! Couldn't believe it while I was looking at it. They didn't have any 3D source playing on it though so I couldn't judge that, but the picture was awesome, although it was animation, which is not quite the same as live action. I will go back just to convince myself it really was that thick, I mean thin. By the way $4K for the 55 inch.
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post #115 of 116 Old 05-01-2010, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

At this stage in the development of 3D the CEMs need to control the glasses, as they are a critical piece in the system. As time goes on, perhaps standards for glasses and the control signal will emerge.

Utter nonsense. There's no 'this stage', let alone there's very little 'development' as long as it's still based on the lamest an oldest of all: active glasses.
It's nothing new, it's a 20-30 years old technology and there are standard shutter glasses for cheap: http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/01/...rd-3d-glasses/

It's nothing but another dirty trick to skin more money from stupid customers - do not buy any proprietary one, it's simple as that, period.
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post #116 of 116 Old 05-01-2010, 08:23 PM
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One thing I'm willing to bet money on is most Best Buy store demos do not have the 3D Bluray Player calibrated, new firmware (for TV and Bluray Player), and some basic picture adjustments.

I have the Samsung C750 (regular non LED LCD) and had awful ghosting with MvA 3D however once I updated the Bluray Player's firmware and set the TV size to 46" a lot of it went away. Now it still is present but for instance in the space scene of the movie (very beginning) where ghosting was awful with the planets and comets, I don't see it anymore. What a difference!

Next time you're at Best Buy, see if you can borrow the 3D Bluray Player remote, go to menu (the actual menu button) then go to settings, 3D, and choose the size. I doubt they will let you bring in a thumb drive to upgrade the firmware though (o:

I still see it on the "church scene" and still see ghosting occasionally throughout the movie but it's nothing like it was before. Actually on a side note the same is true of Avatar the Videogame on the PS3. Make your adjustments in the options for TV size and viewing distance and you'll see a considerable improvement.

I'm hoping for a firmware update for the C750 which the C7000 has where you can control the depth of native 3D content such as 3D Bluray and Side to Side 3D (which is what Avatar the Game uses).
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