3D tv advice for a Kuro owner? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 02-11-2010, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Ever since I was a kid, I've loved 3D, so this whole 3D revolution has been very exciting for me (although it did take me by surprise). I stopped by the Sony store on Tuesday and was absolutely blown away by the display. Wheel of Fortune was incredible in 3D.

The only problem, though, is that my beloved 6020FD Kuro can't display 3D. To make matters worse, Pioneer isn't making TVs anymore, so they'll never have a 3D set. So right now I'm contemplating buying a 65 inch Panasonic VT25, a 60 inch Sony LX900, or a 72 inch Vizio XVT. None of these TVs are out, but I guess the real question is will the quality difference make me cringe?

I'd expect the Sony TV to retail for at least $6k, or almost twice the cost of the FOOT bigger Vizio. I'd pay cash for either, but the Vizio just seems like a steal and (unless the Sony looks as good as the XBR8) the Sony will suffer from the same LCD problems the Vizio would. Do the Vizio's at least look acceptable or will it pale next to the Kuro? I'd expect the Panasonic to be somewhere in between (and it's a plasma so it'll have better blacks), but it's a good 7 inches smaller for a great deal more money as well. Thoughts?
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post #2 of 56 Old 02-11-2010, 03:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post

Wheel of Fortune was incredible in 3D.

Well, I can't think of a better reason to rid myself of one of those crappy Kuros.
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post #3 of 56 Old 02-11-2010, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jvernon View Post

Well, I can't think of a better reason to rid myself of one of those crappy Kuros.

I would just move the Kuro to my bedroom on the 3rd floor (and move my bedroom 52XBR9 downstairs to the first floor). I certainly wouldn't get rid of the Kuro.
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post #4 of 56 Old 02-11-2010, 04:16 PM
 
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j/k

I'm just one of those troglodytes who regard 3D as a gimmick.
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post #5 of 56 Old 02-11-2010, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jvernon View Post

j/k

I'm just one of those troglodytes who regard 3D as a gimmick.

I like your way of thinking,my thoughts exactly.i'm with you on the 3d gimmick.Even though i got a little bashed for thinking just that.
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post #6 of 56 Old 02-11-2010, 11:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rocky1 View Post

I like your way of thinking,my thoughts exactly.i'm with you on the 3d gimmick.Even though i got a little bashed for thinking just that.

I don't think 3D is a gimmick...it's an entirely new way of watching things. Something like the Wii is a gimmick (PS2 2000 era graphics, no HD, and some lame motion control for $250...really??).
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post #7 of 56 Old 02-12-2010, 05:10 AM
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Until they lose the glasses it's a gimmick. No one is going to pony up $200+ for a pair of glasses for everyone in a household.

Be a fan of displays, not companies or technologies!
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post #8 of 56 Old 02-12-2010, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post

I d Something like the Wii is a gimmick (PS2 2000 era graphics, no HD, and some lame motion control for $250...really??).

That's why all the companies are rushing to copy Nintendo and Sony's financial situation is dire. I don't like the Wii or it's old tech but Nintendo got it right and Sony got it wrong.

Be a fan of displays, not companies or technologies!
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post #9 of 56 Old 02-12-2010, 05:22 AM
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Well, coming from a KURO owner to a KURO owner (I've a Pro-111FD), I'd advise waiting to see how it shakes out. Even though there's an industry push, it could be simply a footnote in entertainment (Betamax anyone?), and worse, you could be stuck having shelled out thousands for a display the full potential of which might never see.

I'd say, don't be in a hurry, enjoy your KURO for another year or 2. By then, we'll start to have a better idea of where these things are going. By then, reviews will be in, and we'll know if there are any long-term side-effects to wearing those glasses (remember "The Jerk" and the opti-grab? What did we learn from that movie, if nothing else, children? Don't mess with people's eyes!)

That's what I'm gonna do.

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post #10 of 56 Old 02-12-2010, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocky1 View Post

I like your way of thinking,my thoughts exactly.i'm with you on the 3d gimmick.Even though i got a little bashed for thinking just that.

3d is in fact a gimmick, however I don't mind and I still enjoy it. I think all these stereoscopic displays should be labeled as 2.5d (thats what gamers used to call the 1st Doom engine back in the early 90s, that game gave you the impression of a 3d environment but in reality they employed a cheap mathematical trick that was designed to remove a per pixel division operation; thats how they reduced rendering time however the world data was really stored as 2d; still, it was a revolution that paved the way for real-time 3d rendering).

If you want real 3d, you're gonna have to wait some 50+ years for holographic displays
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post #11 of 56 Old 02-12-2010, 07:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Patrick. View Post

That's why all the companies are rushing to copy Nintendo and Sony's financial situation is dire. I don't like the Wii or it's old tech but Nintendo got it right and Sony got it wrong.

I never said the Wii wasn't a successful gimmick, I just said it was a gimmick. I abhor the wii because of what it's done to video gaming. If it were HD with bad graphics, I could forgive it (I say this as a wii owner).

The PS3 will ultimately probably prove more profitable for Sony than the wii was for Nintendo if Blu-ray becomes even half as widespread as DVD because of their licensing fees for the format. They basically traded being the most successful console for winning the high definition format war, but that's neither here nor there.

Maybe I should get a smaller (50ish inch) 3D tv and put it downstairs to watch the limited 3D programming available. I'd just hate to miss out on college football in 3D.
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post #12 of 56 Old 02-12-2010, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post

I don't think 3D is a gimmick...it's an entirely new way of watching things. Something like the Wii is a gimmick (PS2 2000 era graphics, no HD, and some lame motion control for $250...really??).

Can't let that one go by.

The Wii controller, with its orthogonal-axis accelerometer/inertial sensors, is the only controller that truly brings the third dimension into play in gaming. The less-than-HD graphics don't take much away from that achievement.

Which leads me to believe that well-executed large-panel BluRay 3-D reproduction will, by analogy, make less-than-perfect black levels not very significant.
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post #13 of 56 Old 02-13-2010, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post

Ever since I was a kid, I've loved 3D, so this whole 3D revolution has been very exciting for me (although it did take me by surprise). I stopped by the Sony store on Tuesday and was absolutely blown away by the display. Wheel of Fortune was incredible in 3D.

The only problem, though, is that my beloved 6020FD Kuro can't display 3D. To make matters worse, Pioneer isn't making TVs anymore, so they'll never have a 3D set. So right now I'm contemplating buying a 65 inch Panasonic VT25, a 60 inch Sony LX900, or a 72 inch Vizio XVT. None of these TVs are out, but I guess the real question is will the quality difference make me cringe?

I'd expect the Sony TV to retail for at least $6k, or almost twice the cost of the FOOT bigger Vizio. I'd pay cash for either, but the Vizio just seems like a steal and (unless the Sony looks as good as the XBR8) the Sony will suffer from the same LCD problems the Vizio would. Do the Vizio's at least look acceptable or will it pale next to the Kuro? I'd expect the Panasonic to be somewhere in between (and it's a plasma so it'll have better blacks), but it's a good 7 inches smaller for a great deal more money as well. Thoughts?

I would wait at least another year or two until the 3D technology becomes a bit more mature and likely comes down in cost. By then, Panasonic will hopefully have integrated most or all of the Kuro technology into their sets and then you will hopefully be able to purchase a set with Kuro PQ and 3D.
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post #14 of 56 Old 02-15-2010, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post

The only problem, though, is that my beloved 6020FD Kuro can't display 3D. Thoughts?

I've said this before, but I would expect that eventually some enterprising Pioneer software gurus will develop a Home Theater PC adapter that will, through 1080p, enable reasonable 3-D presentations on Kuros.
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post #15 of 56 Old 02-15-2010, 11:11 AM
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I'm no engineer but my opinion (and that's all it is) is that would be highly unlikely. I think when you factor in the amount of money for R&D to develop such a solution (assuming its even possible), the possible requirement to have access to patented technology in the Kuro, and then factor in the very limited market for such a device (a subset of current Kuro owners), I just see too many roadblocks for such a device to ever make it to market (much less even be developed).
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post #16 of 56 Old 02-15-2010, 09:53 PM
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I'm not talking about a marketable product. I'm talking about a workable solution. And if you're a Kuro owner, that'll do.

It's not manufacturing, it's just signal processing. And there is ample talent in the pro/am video community to make that happen just for fun and giggles, believe it or not. Heck, a teenage kid hacked the DVD encryption system during a couple of idle weekends.
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post #17 of 56 Old 02-15-2010, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvanayoda View Post

I don't think 3D is a gimmick...it's an entirely new way of watching things. Something like the Wii is a gimmick (PS2 2000 era graphics, no HD, and some lame motion control for $250...really??).

That's a good comparison for me actually. If I bought a 3D TV it would be just like my Wii, which I haven't bothered to power up in at least a year.

(yes obviously the TV works just fine for 2D too, so no need to point that out thanks)
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post #18 of 56 Old 02-15-2010, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

I'm not talking about a marketable product. I'm talking about a workable solution. And if you're a Kuro owner, that'll do.

It's not manufacturing, it's just signal processing. And there is ample talent in the pro/am video community to make that happen just for fun and giggles, believe it or not. Heck, a teenage kid hacked the DVD encryption system during a couple of idle weekends.

I know what you are talking about but that still doesn't change my position. I would like nothing more than to see such a solution for my own Kuro 600M but I honestly do not believe it is going to happen for the reasons I have already listed. I don't think you have to be a software engineer to get a realistic idea of just how difficult (and therefore unlikely) it would be to develop what you are proposing. Assuming it was even possible to create such a solution, without the help of the Pioneer engineers, I could easily see it taking years to develop the solution and by then, the Kuro will almost surely have been surpassed and many Kuro owners will have moved on to newer and better technology. I know you were just trying to make a point but I don't think its that hard to imagine just how different and more difficult adding functionality (3D) to the Kuro will be compared to cracking CSS. Make no mistake, I hope I am proven wrong but with each passing day and absolutlely zero rumors or speculation of anyone working on such a solution, the chances of seeing a 3D solution for the Kuro are going from very slim to none. I only spoke up here because I just don't want to see the OP holding out hope for such a solution when again, there hasn't even been any rumored speculation that such a solution is even being considered by someone with the technical know how.
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post #19 of 56 Old 02-15-2010, 11:49 PM
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Don't forget the Toshiba Cell tvs coming later this year. There is a short thread on it in the LCD forum. I believe I read they have the ability to show all programming in 3d. I would love to watch classic film noir in 3d on TCM.
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post #20 of 56 Old 02-16-2010, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

I'm not talking about a marketable product. I'm talking about a workable solution. And if you're a Kuro owner, that'll do.

It's not manufacturing, it's just signal processing. And there is ample talent in the pro/am video community to make that happen just for fun and giggles, believe it or not. Heck, a teenage kid hacked the DVD encryption system during a couple of idle weekends.


In order to play the upcoming 3d Blu-Ray DVDs in 3D the TV hadware needs to be able to receive and process the two video streams using a HDMI 1.4 receiver chip. It also needs hardware capable of displaying each stream in 1080p/24 input steam at least 60Hz and 120Hz would be better to avoid judder. And then it needs the hardware to generate the IR output required to sync the active shutter glases.
These requirements can not be met by a "video processsing solution" which if possible would most likely require replacing the current video processing chips in the Kuro with higher speed chips with bigger memory buffers.
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post #21 of 56 Old 02-16-2010, 07:03 AM
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Count me in the gimmick camp. I am a Kuro owner as well (141) and have very little interest in 3D and I have seen a few of the 3d sets and 3D content and was not impressed. While I will agree that the shutter glasses are a big improvement, the figures still look like cardboard cutouts and the 3D effects very gimmicky. Foe live sports, unless the camera is on the filed, the 3D effect is almost nil. I have more depth on my Kuro on distant shots of sporting events than I have sense on the 3D prototypes I have seen. I would just wait to see how all this plays out. If someone would put out a set that can match or even exceed the performance of my 141 and offer 3d and at an affordable price (sub 3k), I would be interested. Until then, forget it. I would rather all manufacturers get their sets right first. They have a long way to to go in that regard.
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post #22 of 56 Old 02-17-2010, 05:45 AM
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[rant]
3d is not a gimmick. By definition a gimmick would add no function or value.

3d is a new function. Get over it guys...

And the Wii is not a gimmick either, again it added a completely new way to play games. Which has been heavily copied at this point.

If your going to use words to support your argument, use the right ones...

The Wii and 3d... are not gimmicks... they both do present new features/options/functions/value.

So many whiny tech nerds on this site that blindly push their **opinions** with forceful words chosen poorly.
[/rant]

p.s. you'd be the same guys saying color TV is a gimmick too when it 1st came out, since it wasn't perfect accurate color (or much color to speak of) and you just bought your top of the line B&W set

-SiGGy
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post #23 of 56 Old 02-17-2010, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeTime View Post

I'm not talking about a marketable product. I'm talking about a workable solution. And if you're a Kuro owner, that'll do.

It's not manufacturing, it's just signal processing. And there is ample talent in the pro/am video community to make that happen just for fun and giggles, believe it or not. Heck, a teenage kid hacked the DVD encryption system during a couple of idle weekends.

Actually it wasn't hacked so to speak... he didn't break the DVD encryption.

He found a key that a lazy software company left in clear text (i.e. not encrypted) in their program that did DVD playback. That key was then used to write other decoders.

So you can really thank the software company for providing the key without any protection. And a lot of thanks to the guy who found it.

-SiGGy
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post #24 of 56 Old 02-21-2010, 01:09 PM
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I wouldn't rush on the 3d bandwagon unless I had to buy a tv this year (IE my current TV was SD or was dead/having picture issues).

Early adopters always pay a price in either dollars or first gen incompatibilities.
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post #25 of 56 Old 02-22-2010, 02:15 PM
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One solution that doesn't require a different external processor or expensive glasses is to get your Kuro professionally calibrated...

From what other's say, the picture ends up being so good that it takes on an almost 3 dimensional effect to it.
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post #26 of 56 Old 02-22-2010, 03:20 PM
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See it in person. It's a gimmick that reduces luminance and gamut etc. Whatever 3D effect is had at the expense of picture quality. Early adopters will probably have their wallets at the ready.
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post #27 of 56 Old 02-22-2010, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill4903485 View Post

See it in person. It's a gimmick that reduces luminance and gamut etc. Whatever 3D effect is had at the expense of picture quality. Early adopters will probably have their wallets at the ready.

Of course we will. That's because the top of the line sets will be 3D capable, and a lot of us will be in the market this year for a new TV and want one of the best available.
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post #28 of 56 Old 02-22-2010, 07:18 PM
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Sorry, but the Kuro is old tech and you no opportunity to get the latest, greatest, and revolutionary 3D capability. I suggest you sell your Kuro to me for a fair price so you can buy a set with 3d tech. I'm very generous and will give you $300 for your obsolete tv. PM me soon before I withdraw my offer.
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post #29 of 56 Old 02-22-2010, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

In order to play the upcoming 3d Blu-Ray DVDs in 3D the TV hadware needs to be able to receive and process the two video streams using a HDMI 1.4 receiver chip.

A modern HTPC with a high-performance video card can deal with all of it.

And you won't "hear about" people working on this. It will just suddenly appear in an enthusiasts' forum. Just like the "HD recording via Windows" threads of yore.
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post #30 of 56 Old 02-23-2010, 06:51 AM
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AFAIK graphics cards with HDMI 1.4 output chips are just now coming to market. Also I have not yet seen any anounced plans as to when 3D capable blu-ray drives and drivers for then will be available for PC's. I do not know for sure but it may be possible to play one of the 3D blu-ray disks on a current blu-ray drive in 2D by reading only one of the two 1080p/24 data steams recorded on the disk.
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