Basic 3D video FAQs - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 81 Old 03-17-2010, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Why would a receiver process 3D video? What is it going to do with it?

Change resolution, aspect, sharpness, brightness, contrast, hue, chroma, "PureCinema", "Progressive Motion" are listed as available video adjustments in the Pioneer manual for the vsx-1020 AVR ("V" is for video).

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post #32 of 81 Old 03-17-2010, 11:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

Change resolution, aspect, sharpness, brightness, contrast, hue, chroma, "PureCinema", "Progressive Motion" are listed as available video adjustments in the Pioneer manual for the vsx-1020 AVR ("V" is for video).

Can I see a link for the manual to that receiver.
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post #33 of 81 Old 03-18-2010, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Can I see a link for the manual to that receiver.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/St...ctions0302.pdf

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post #34 of 81 Old 03-18-2010, 10:30 AM
 
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Quote:

Page 70:

Note that if an option cannot be selected
on the VIDEO PARAMETER menu, it is
unavailable due to the current source,
setting and status of the receiver.
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post #35 of 81 Old 03-18-2010, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Page 70:

Note that if an option cannot be selected
on the VIDEO PARAMETER menu, it is
unavailable due to the current source,
setting and status of the receiver.

So? There are cautions and hedges of that sort scattered throughout the manual. For instance, it seems the receiver is not capable of translating HD component input video to digital, so since the video adjustments I quoted before are presumably done digitally by the Anchor Bay video processing chip, they are probably not available for HD component inputs.

But, anyway, what does that have to do with whether the advertised HDMI 1.4 capability in a receiver somehow implies HDMI 1.4a capability (which I thought you were implying)?

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post #36 of 81 Old 03-18-2010, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Why would a receiver process 3D video? What is it going to do with it?

For the same reasons all but the lowest end HDMI equipped AVRs today process or at least sync. up with 2D video and do not just perform video switching. For example if the AVR is to put an on-screen display for volume and other AVR settings it would need to decode the frame packing used for 3D then insert the on-screen display info then recreate the frame packing. I doubt any of the first generation HDMI 1.4 AVRs will actually be doing this however. Rather when they see the incoming HDMI signal is for 3D, the AVR will most likely just perform a HDMI switching function. The problem with using a HDMI 1.3 AVR is the 3D source (e.g., Blu-ray 3D player) will be informed by the AVR during the HDMI handshake that the AVR only supports HDMI 1.3 and the source will then revert to a HDMI 1.3 mode which does not include the 3D related header fields nor allow for the Frame Packing format for conveying the 3D video. Some 3D sources will have a mode to force the 3D output and in that case there is some chance that the AVR may actually work (if it's just doing simple switching, and not attempting to do video processing). It appears that Panasonic is the best at addressing use of older AVRs with their new Blu-ray 3D player by providing 2 HDMI outputs with a version 1.4 output for connection to the 3D HDTV and a second one that is version 1.3 for connection to the AVR.

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post #37 of 81 Old 03-18-2010, 01:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

So? There are cautions and hedges of that sort scattered throughout the manual. For instance, it seems the receiver is not capable of translating HD component input video to digital, so since the video adjustments I quoted before are presumably done digitally by the Anchor Bay video processing chip, they are probably not available for HD component inputs.

But, anyway, what does that have to do with whether the advertised HDMI 1.4 capability in a receiver somehow implies HDMI 1.4a capability (which I thought you were implying)?

Why do you believe that the 1.4 receiver won't be able to pass the 3D signal of a 1.4a 3D format?

BTW - there is a post floating around from someone's observation of one of the Samsung 3DTV menus - it doesn't allow either brightness or contrast adjustments when in 3D mode. Only color and tint.
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post #38 of 81 Old 03-18-2010, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Why do you believe that the 1.4 receiver won't be able to pass the 3D signal of a 1.4a 3D format?

I don't hold such a belief. I think the new 1.4 receivers may work for the 1.4a signals. I hope they do. You earlier assured me they would, and so I thought you might know they would. But I'm the sort of person that needs reasons, not just reassurance. So, I'm trying to figure out whether you really know.
Quote:


BTW - there is a post floating around from someone's observation of one of the Samsung 3DTV menus - it doesn't allow either brightness or contrast adjustments when in 3D mode. Only color and tint.

Is this somehow relevant? I'd guess some Samsung engineer decided users would need a high level of brightness and lots of contrast for 3D, and didn't want Samsung to be blamed for a lackluster picture if users made the wrong decisions about those adjustments.

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post #39 of 81 Old 03-18-2010, 03:37 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregLee View Post

I don't hold such a belief. I think the new 1.4 receivers may work for the 1.4a signals. I hope they do. You earlier assured me they would, and so I thought you might know they would. But I'm the sort of person that needs reasons, not just reassurance. So, I'm trying to figure out whether you really know.

Does anyone really know? 100% guaranteed - it's a fact?

Were there any issues when they went from 1.3 to a, b and c?

Quote:


Is this somehow relevant? I'd guess some Samsung engineer decided users would need a high level of brightness and lots of contrast for 3D, and didn't want Samsung to be blamed for a lackluster picture if users made the wrong decisions about those adjustments.

That you can't manipulate the 3D signal like you can an HD signal

We have polluted this thread enough as it is. You ignored my PM.

I'm done.
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post #40 of 81 Old 03-21-2010, 05:52 PM
 
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Mind you, the first 3D-ready HDTVs appeared on the market in 2007, with the first set being released by Samsung in April 2007.


In that year, Samsung released four DLP series, two lamp-based and two LED-based DLP series. In 2007, Mitsubishi also released its 833 DLP series of 3D-ready DLP HDTVs.

These DLP HDTVs used Texas Instruments wobulated DMD chip, which created a 1920 x 1080 pixel image from a 960 x 1080 DMD chip through the use of an optical actuator that offset (wobulate) the image by ½ pixel 120 times a second to create the full 1080p 60Hz image. It was this ½ pixel displacement of the optical actuator on the DLP chip that made it possible for these Samsung and Mitsubishi DLP HDTVs to integrate 3-D capability by displaying a checkerboard pattern of the 3D content; and as with the present 3D HDTVs, these early 3D-ready TVs also made use of an LCD shutter glasses for the viewer to be able to see the image in 3D.

http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/3d-tv.html
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post #41 of 81 Old 03-22-2010, 08:01 PM
 
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3D camera rigs used in shooting live 3D sporting events






A Panasonic 3D Camera




Panasonics Future 3D Camera

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post #42 of 81 Old 03-22-2010, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

ANAGLYPH 3D with glasses (top right corner)

COLORCODE 3D



COLORCODE 3D Glasses

If you guys still have a pair of those glasses from the Super Bowl/Chuck 3D promotional from 2009, they work with this 3D image. You may need to crank the contrast and/or brightness to see it clearly, but as ColorCode 3D goes, it's not half bad. Fortunately, since it's largely black and white, the color distortions are minimized.

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post #43 of 81 Old 03-22-2010, 09:17 PM
 
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For those who have an old Anaglyph 3D pair of glasses laying around

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post #44 of 81 Old 03-23-2010, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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My favorite web site to view 3D anaglyph images is out of this world. Many-many 3D images from Mars: MARS UNEARTHED

They also have some 3D images that can be viewed cross-eyed to get you 3D without glasses (HERE is an example). Maybe for those that insist they won't buy into 3D until glass are not needed, then all you will really need is a little video processing and two identical HDTVs placed side-by-side and then just watch all 3D programs cross-eyed (lol).

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post #45 of 81 Old 03-23-2010, 09:33 AM
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AVS Experts, I'm so confused, as to say, I hope one of the 3D technical pliers in the forum, can give me an answer that a simple viewer, (user) can set direction with and take appropriate actions, buy adaptors or, truly understand what I've got and what to do, besides cry at the misinformation out there from my suppliers own people..

I have to admit that ignorance of purpose and scope caused me to expect that my Samsung HL67A750 would be able to do anything with the recently announced 3D standard, even if Samsung techs have told me repeatedly that to watch the new 3D broadcast media, cable, sat, or OTA, all I needed to do was plug in the emitter to the 3D port on the back, throw on the glasses and sit back and watch. Five minutes later I call again and ask the same questions and am told I need to buy a High-end gaming PC with at minimum an AMD Phenom II X2 CPU and an ATI Radcon HD 5970. But wait, I can call a third time and get comforted by a repeat response of nothing to worry about just plug in the emitter, throw on the glasses and enjoy, and this is direct from Samsung support, 3 techs in one hour.

Finally my question, What do I really need to do the allow me to enjoy 3D media broadcasts from OTA cable or Dish on my HL67A750 or do I need to just throw away my 18 month old set and start from scratch.
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post #46 of 81 Old 03-23-2010, 09:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr50v500 View Post

AVS Experts, I’m so confused, as to say, I hope one of the 3D technical pliers in the forum, can give me an answer that a simple viewer, (user) can set direction with and take appropriate actions, buy adaptors or, truly understand what I’ve got and what to do, besides cry at the misinformation out there from my suppliers own people..

I have to admit that ignorance of purpose and scope caused me to expect that my Samsung HL67A750 would be able to do anything with the recently announced 3D standard, even if Samsung techs have told me repeatedly that to watch the new 3D broadcast media, cable, sat, or OTA, all I needed to do was plug in the emitter to the 3D port on the back, throw on the glasses and sit back and watch. Five minutes later I call again and ask the same questions and am told I need to buy a High-end gaming PC with at minimum an AMD Phenom II X2 CPU and an ATI Radcon HD 5970. But wait, I can call a third time and get comforted by a repeat response of nothing to worry about just plug in the emitter, throw on the glasses and enjoy, and this is direct from Samsung support, 3 techs in one hour.

Finally my question, What do I really need to do the allow me to enjoy 3D media broadcasts from OTA cable or Dish on my HL67A750 or do I need to just throw away my 18 month old set and start from scratch.

You are going to need a Mitsubishi 3DC-1000 3D format converter - not available yet - couple of months. Then you are going to need a pair of active shutter glasses with either DLP-Link communications or a pair that use IR comm and the emitter which would plug into the back of your set in the special 3 pin connection. Then you need a source of 3D content like CBL (newer HD STB required) or 3D BD player. No news for 3D from Dish - only DirecTV

Here is a thread all about it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1233286
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post #47 of 81 Old 03-23-2010, 10:16 AM
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Thanks Lee,
This is great news - -
I really appreciate the straight story on this and want to thank Mitsubishi for stepping up to provide the interface. I'll endeavor to post results of my first 3D conversion attempts as the Mitsubishi box and broadcast content avail them selves over the next few months.
Thanks Again,
jrh
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post #48 of 81 Old 03-23-2010, 10:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr50v500 View Post

Thanks Lee,
This is great news - -
I really appreciate the straight story on this and want to thank Mitsubishi for stepping up to provide the interface. I'll endeavor to post results of my first 3D conversion attempts as the Mitsubishi box and broadcast content avail them selves over the next few months.
Thanks Again,
jrh

LOL - you will be one of MANY who will post results. A lot of members waiting for that 3DC-1000

Not surprising that Samsung wouldn't know about the 1000 or even tell you. It's not their product.

You are very welcome. Stay tuned to AVS 3D Central.

Next!
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post #49 of 81 Old 03-25-2010, 11:54 AM
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post #50 of 81 Old 03-26-2010, 04:42 AM
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Your free 3D training course

In Video 2, from 4:10 to 8:05, the 200Hz technology is explained. If I understand right (my level of english talk comprehension is not optimal), the problem is that LCDs are hold-type displays and, because they refresh each frame from top to bottom, there is never a moment when an eye can see only the image meant to it (left or right). An eye always see a part of the image meant to the other eye, causing ghosting. The problem is explained in this article: http://cmst.curtin.edu.au/local/docs...oods_sehic.pdf

To overcame this problem, Sony uses 200Hz, opening the glass shutter for an eye only half the time, so that each eye sees only its image. At 200Hz, each eye is left blind for 3/4 of times, not just half the time. To compensate for this, brightness is enhanced.

This means that the display is at 200Hz, but the frames are still at 100Hz; look at the pictures on the presentation screen. In a sense, each left or right frame is "double flashed".

This means, in turn, that using 240Hz is the same as 120Hz for judder. LCDs should have the same Judder problem discussed in other threads for Panasonic plasma: 3:2 pulldown.

That there is judder is also confirmated in Video 3, form 2:15 to 2:50. The speaker says it inevitable without Motion Flow.

So: 3D means judder and 3:2 pulldown again ?
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post #51 of 81 Old 03-28-2010, 08:29 AM
 
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post #52 of 81 Old 04-02-2010, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

That there is judder is also confirmated in Video 3, form 2:15 to 2:50. The speaker says it inevitable without Motion Flow.

So: 3D means judder and 3:2 pulldown again ?

Hi (i'm tia86 on AVM)
The Sony guy say "24p (2D, ndtia) have judder anyway, so 24p 3D have too"., but the judder that the guy is speaking is due to the low refresh rate of 24Hz content and it's not related to 3:2 judder.
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post #53 of 81 Old 04-02-2010, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tia_ View Post

Hi (i'm tia86 on AVM)
The Sony guy say "24p (2D, ndtia) have judder anyway, so 24p 3D have too"., but the judder that the guy is speaking is due to the low refresh rate of 24Hz content and it's not related to 3:2 judder.

I tend to think of 'judder' as being related to uneven timing for the display of the frames (i.e., 3:2 judder) while the low frame rate of movies (i.e., 24 fps) when displayed at 24, or an integer multiple, results in jerky (as in lack of smooth) motion. While many film buffs do not like to see films displayed with frame interpolation or any other scheme that "takes away the film look", I believe that when we consider 3D we are really talking about a different situation since 3D is attempting to provide a window on the world or a psuedo virtal world. James Cameron said in an interview with Variety (LINK) two years ago that he wanted to shoot Avatar at 48 fps or higher, but from a later report Fox Studios wouldn't go along with it so he was forced to shoot the movie at 24 fps. When I saw Avatar in the theater in RealD the limitation of the 24 fps rate really detracted from the experience as all motion within the movie looked very unnatural (by that I mean in had the typical film-like poor motion). I would contend that we aren't getting 3D movies at 24 fps because that's what the director wanted, but rather they have no alternative if they want to get their movies distributed by the major studios and shown at theaters around the world. We have been stuck with 24 fps since the first 'talkie' picture, "The Jazz Singer" was shown in 1927, and we are still stuck with this 83 year old technology (how many other 83 year old technologies do forum members here on AVS insist in the best choice for a high end home theater?). However with the transition to digital cinema perhaps someone in Hollywood will be willing to take on this long out dated standard and bring movies into the 21st century by setting a new standard for 3D movies using 48 fps or better still 72 fps for both creation and display (either of these frame rate can easily be converted to 24 fps for distribution to theaters that can only support the old standard).

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post #54 of 81 Old 04-03-2010, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tia_ View Post

The Sony guy say "24p (2D, ndtia) have judder anyway, so 24p 3D have too"., but the judder that the guy is speaking is due to the low refresh rate of 24Hz content and it's not related to 3:2 judder.

Yes, listening to it again now I too think he's talking about 24fps and not 3:2 pulldown.
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post #55 of 81 Old 04-03-2010, 06:42 PM
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There is of course no company that has the "best" current implementaion of every possible HDTV feature or panel technology.
But worse is the fact that US Consumer Electronics organiztion has not defined the names and meanings of different HDTV specifications so what one company calls removing of motion Judder another compnay calls motion smothing.
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post #56 of 81 Old 04-07-2010, 11:01 AM
 
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post #57 of 81 Old 06-12-2010, 01:14 AM
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Question, what differences would I see with my current hdmi cable or a more recent hdmi cable? I played demos on my ps3 and they appear to play in 3d. Is it a matter of it just working or not working?
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post #58 of 81 Old 06-12-2010, 08:06 AM
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You will no difference with 3D between an HDMI 1.3b cable and a HDMI 1.4 cable.
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post #59 of 81 Old 06-12-2010, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

You will no difference with 3D between an HDMI 1.3b cable and a HDMI 1.4 cable.

Thanks walford.
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post #60 of 81 Old 09-02-2010, 09:55 AM
 
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OpenCable Specifications

Content Encoding Profiles 3.0 Specification

OC-SP-CEP3.0-I01-100827


http://www.cablelabs.com/specificati...I01-100827.pdf
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