Any 3D projectors coming? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 378 Old 03-18-2010, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Joe,

I agree that the weak contrast of this machine may be an issue. However, the first-hand reports were favorable, so there's a chance that laser light, which is more polarized that bulb light, but actually be perceived more dynamic than it measures. In any case, it's good to be cautious, but let's wait and see what comes. Given what JVC has done with native contrast, it's only a matter of time before the same improvements come to laser light sources on LCOS.

I really want to see for myself, and that's true for everything 3D. As I've read about shutter glasses and polarization over the last few months, I kept thinking I'd prefer shutter glasses. Now that I've seen the Samsung LCD displays, ghosting is a deal breaker for me. After I pointed it out to a couple of Best Buy salesmen today, they had no problem seeing it and being bothered by it. I want to see if the Panasonic plasmas have the same problem. I suspect they will, but there's no way to know until I see for myself. I trust my eyes more than any reports or reviews. None that I had read mentioned a ghosting problem with shutter glasses, but it took no time for me to spot the issue and realize I wanted no part of it.

If at all possible, I'll seek out demonstrations of all my 3D options. I haven't done much traveling lately. It's about time for a few trips.

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post #62 of 378 Old 03-18-2010, 10:37 PM
 
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Here is a video on this product:

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/video?id=7013481
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post #63 of 378 Old 03-18-2010, 10:55 PM
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For clarity's sake, here's the photo of the HDI Light Engine. Note the two LCOS chips.


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post #64 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I really want to see for myself, and that's true for everything 3D. As I've read about shutter glasses and polarization over the last few months, I kept thinking I'd prefer shutter glasses. Now that I've seen the Samsung LCD displays, ghosting is a deal breaker for me. After I pointed it out to a couple of Best Buy salesmen today, they had no problem seeing it and being bothered by it. I want to see if the Panasonic plasmas have the same problem. I suspect they will, but there's no way to know until I see for myself. I trust my eyes more than any reports or reviews. None that I had read mentioned a ghosting problem with shutter glasses, but it took no time for me to spot the issue and realize I wanted no part of it.

If at all possible, I'll seek out demonstrations of all my 3D options. I haven't done much traveling lately. It's about time for a few trips.

I don't beleive the 'ghosting' issue with the Samsung LCD 3D HDTV is so much an issue with the shutter glasses as with the TV itself. So far it appears that LCD HDTVs (same issue reported with the Sony demo) cannot cleanly alternate between the right and left image streams while by most reports the Panasonic plasmas don't have this problem. Samsung is due to start shipping their own 3D plasmas in April so we will see how they compare.

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post #65 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I don't beleive the 'ghosting' issue with the Samsung LCD 3D HDTV is so much an issue with the shutter glasses as with the TV itself. So far it appears that LCD HDTVs (same issue reported with the Sony demo) cannot cleanly alternate between the right and left image streams while by most reports the Panasonic plasmas don't have this problem. Samsung is due to start shipping their own 3D plasmas in April so we will see how they compare.

Yeah, I'm just antsy right now. Hopefully, it's simply an LCD display problem. I'd prefer to use shutter glasses as my 3D solution at home. When I get a 3D projector, I'd rather not have to deal with putting up a new screen for polarized images. I'm OK with a big plasma until then. The room is ready for it. All I have to do is take the display and the Blu-ray player out of the boxes. Did I mention that I'm antsy?

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post #66 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 10:33 AM
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+10 to the above....

I was gun ho at first with a 2 projector / polarized setup....

But, a cheapie 3D 720p dlp projector can be setup only when I want to screen 3D and does seem to represent the best value or at least cheapest way in.
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post #67 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Note the two LCOS chips.

If it really is only two imagers then that probably means that they're doing sequential color, which means potential rainbow artifacts since it seems to be only running at 3x.
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post #68 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

If it really is only two imagers then that probably means that they're doing sequential color, which means potential rainbow artifacts since it seems to be only running at 3x.

I thought I remember during a more indepth discussion of that technology that they have six imagers. I think that the diagram is simplified for clarity.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #69 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 01:14 PM
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Until the Cost of the glasses hit $50, its going to be hard for me to go all-in with it. I have 4 kids.. thats 6 pairs just for us.. another 4 pairs for visitors.. its just expensive. I could buy another 8100 for that.
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post #70 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBluePill View Post

Until the Cost of the glasses hit $50, its going to be hard for me to go all-in with it. I have 4 kids.. thats 6 pairs just for us.. another 4 pairs for visitors.. its just expensive. I could buy another 8100 for that.

If you get a 3D projector using polarized light, your glasses are basically free... just keep the ones you use at your next 3D movie.

Projectors will probably make better use of polarized 3D than what we'll see with direct-view displays. Since you can make a PJ with dual light engines, polarized is easier to do with the architecture of the projected image than it is with a flat panel.

The only type of glasses that are expensive are active shutter, which are only used with sequential left/right machines.

We'll have to wait until CEDIA to see which companies are doing polarized and which are doing sequential. My guess is that LCOS and SXRD will show up as polarized and DLP will get used for sequential.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #71 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 01:55 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

If you get a 3D projector using polarized light, your glasses are basically free... just keep the ones you use at your next 3D movie.

Projectors will probably make better use of polarized 3D than what we'll see with direct-view displays. Since you can make a PJ with dual light engines, polarized is easier to do with the architecture of the projected image than it is with a flat panel.

The only type of glasses that are expensive are active shutter, which are only used with sequential left/right machines.

We'll have to wait until CEDIA to see which companies are doing polarized and which are doing sequential. My guess is that LCOS and SXRD will show up as polarized and DLP will get used for sequential.

Does he have the required silver screen to go with the polarized 3D PJ? What is that going to cost? How will he intergrate it into his current HT?
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post #72 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Does he have the required silver screen to go with the polarized 3D PJ? What is that going to cost? How will he intergrate it into his current HT?

I think that we'll be seeing some interesting screen technology along side polarized HT projectors. Yes, polarized PJs will likely require a new screen either way.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #73 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I thought I remember during a more indepth discussion of that technology that they have six imagers. I think that the diagram is simplified for clarity.

Could be, David, but here's how the text reads:

"The two overlapping images are projected at an astounding rate of 360 frames per second for each color (red, green and blue) for a total of 1080 images per second."

That sounds like sequential color to me, but the rate of change is so fast that rainbows are practically inconceivable. As I alluded to earlier, sequential color also eliminates 3-chip convergence errors and simplifies design. I just didn't know LCOS could switch that fast. Apparently, it can.

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post #74 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I think that we'll be seeing some interesting screen technology along side polarized HT projectors. Yes, polarized PJs will likely require a new screen either way.

Switching to a polarized screen could really complicate my life. I love my High Power screen for regular 2D viewing, and it would help alleviate brightness issues created by the need for glasses in viewing 3D. The possibility of needing a new screen is just one of several fundamental questions that adding 3D to a home theater raises.

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post #75 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 03:15 PM
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I came to the same realization wth my 3D goals.

Makes a DLP 3D 720p and DLP-Link glasses used for just 3D screening fairly attractive price wise.
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post #76 of 378 Old 03-19-2010, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

I came to the same realization wth my 3D goals.

Makes a DLP 3D 720p and DLP-Link glasses used for just 3D screening fairly attractive price wise.

especially with universal shutter glasses on the way that support DLP-link, BT and IR... bring your glasses along when going to a friend's place... awww cr@p, another pouch to clip to my belt all day long

"A wide screen just makes a bad film twice as bad. "
-Samuel Goldwyn

I wonder what he'd think about 3D IMAX?
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post #77 of 378 Old 03-20-2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Switching to a polarized screen could really complicate my life. I love my High Power screen for regular 2D viewing, and it would help alleviate brightness issues created by the need for glasses in viewing 3D. The possibility of needing a new screen is just one of several fundamental questions that adding 3D to a home theater raises.

I agree about the HP screen. It allows for almost LCD T.V. brightness (in a light controlled room) and spoils us for just about anything less bright when it comes to front projection. I have three screens in one of my home theatres - one fixed and two pull downs - both in front of the fixed screen and one in front of the other. This allows me to easily compare different screen material - I sure do love the HP. If I have to I'll mount a pull down silver screen (if there is such a thing), but I'd love a solution that would allow me to use my HP for 3D! I'll probably buy a large 3D T.V. to hold me over until a 3D front projection solution, that I'm comfortable with, becomes available.
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post #78 of 378 Old 03-21-2010, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

I agree about the HP screen. It allows for almost LCD T.V. brightness (in a light controlled room) and spoils us for just about anything less bright when it comes to front projection. I have three screens in one of my home theatres - one fixed and two pull downs - both in front of the fixed screen and one in front of the other. This allows me to easily compare different screen material - I sure do love the HP. If I have to I'll mount a pull down silver screen (if there is such a thing), but I'd love a solution that would allow me to use my HP for 3D! I'll probably buy a large 3D T.V. to hold me over until a 3D front projection solution, that I'm comfortable with, becomes available.

I love my hipower too.

BTW, at this point there are only 1 or 2 silver type screens out there that preserve polarized light. But rest assured that once 3D front projection starts to appear, that our much-loved manufacturing brands will more than likely step forward with some new 3D polarized screen alternatives we don't have today.

Of course, going active shutter avoids the screen issue entirely.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #79 of 378 Old 03-21-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I love my hipower too.

BTW, at this point there are only 1 or 2 silver type screens out there that preserve polarized light. But rest assured that once 3D front projection starts to appear, that our much-loved manufacturing brands will more than likely step forward with some new 3D polarized screen alternatives we don't have today.

Of course, going active shutter avoids the screen issue entirely.

After seeing the Panasonic plasma demo yesterday, I'm hopefully about using active shutter glasses at home. Although I think I did see a tiny bit of crosstalk, it was nothing like the Samsung LCD panel. It seems to me it's only a matter of time until some projector technology with quality active shutter glasses arrives on the scene. The ghosting issue with shutter glasses on the Samsung LCD displays will be one of my cautionary tales. I'm anxious to see the Panasonic again, to watch for motion problems. Something about it didn't seem quite right, but I haven't put my finger on it yet - not enough time. It also might have been the setting or the lighting in the room.

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post #80 of 378 Old 03-21-2010, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
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After seeing the Panasonic plasma demo yesterday, I'm hopefully about using active shutter glasses at home. Although I think I did see a tiny bit of crosstalk, it was nothing like the Samsung LCD panel. It seems to me it's only a matter of time until some projector technology with quality active shutter glasses arrives on the scene. The ghosting issue with shutter glasses on the Samsung LCD displays will be one of my cautionary tales. I'm anxious to see the Panasonic again, to watch for motion problems. Something about it didn't seem quite right, but I haven't put my finger on it yet - not enough time. It also might have been the setting or the lighting in the room.

DLP, with its instant on/off capability, is perfectly suited for left/right sequential 3D. If LED can get bright enough, the combo would be perfect as LED eliminates the color wheel and dead 'spoke time' between RGB transitions and so RGB lit LED DLP can have little to no rainbows even with single chips. That would make it a great way to get active-shutter projection on the scene.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #81 of 378 Old 03-21-2010, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

DLP, with its instant on/off capability, is perfectly suited for left/right sequential 3D. If LED can get bright enough, the combo would be perfect as LED eliminates the color wheel and dead 'spoke time' between RGB transitions and so RGB lit LED DLP can have little to no rainbows even with single chips. That would make it a great way to get active-shutter projection on the scene.

Another big plus for LED would be the constant light output over an extended period of time. Having a bulb dim over a few hundred hours is bad enough with 2D; however, with the lumen requirements of 3D this will be an enormous issue - having to replace a bulb every few hundred hours isn't going to cut it with me!
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When I saw the Mitsubishi Laservue DLP, it had zero rainbow effect. It was also bright. Of course, that wasn't 3D. Ultimate Electronics in my area had the 3D demo running on a regular DLP. That set showed the ghosting, too. I'm looking forward to seeing a Laservue set with the Mits adapter and Blu-ray. I'm guessing it would be even easier with laser to eliminate ghosting. That may be wrong, but it's still a 3D option I'm looking forward to seeing.

I did get another chance to take a look at the Panasonic plasma again today, and I did see some minor ghosting in Monsters vs Aliens, but not in the same places as the Samsung LCD. The plasma showed crosstalk in only a couple of high contrast dark scenes, but not in the bright ones at all.

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post #83 of 378 Old 03-22-2010, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

BTW, at this point there are only 1 or 2 silver type screens out there that preserve polarized light. But rest assured that once 3D front projection starts to appear, that our much-loved manufacturing brands will more than likely step forward with some new 3D polarized screen alternatives we don't have today.

I use rear projection onto a gray screen in my current 2D setup. If I go for a polarized 3D setup, will I have to reconfigure for front projection?
Is there a suitable rear screen material?
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post #84 of 378 Old 03-22-2010, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

I love my hipower too. ...

Me three. Although I have been a loooong time LCoS user too. Looks like I will have to change one or the other to get into the 3D game. My have to go DLP because I love my HP screen and don't want to compromise 2D viewing with a hotspot silver screen when 3D will be a small minority of viewing for many year to come.
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post #85 of 378 Old 03-22-2010, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfZo View Post

I use rear projection onto a gray screen in my current 2D setup. If I go for a polarized 3D setup, will I have to reconfigure for front projection?
Is there a suitable rear screen material?

My question is (and I kind of know the answer), Will you be able to be just the material at a reasonable price? I have a very nice professional frame from one of the major brands, and I really do not want to pay the full price again.
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post #86 of 378 Old 03-22-2010, 09:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfZo View Post

I use rear projection onto a gray screen in my current 2D setup. If I go for a polarized 3D setup, will I have to reconfigure for front projection?
Is there a suitable rear screen material?

Go back up to the top of this page and back to the previous page - 3D RPTV using polarization
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post #87 of 378 Old 03-28-2010, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfZo View Post

I use rear projection onto a gray screen in my current 2D setup. If I go for a polarized 3D setup, will I have to reconfigure for front projection?
Is there a suitable rear screen material?

I'm also looking at rear projection for my new HT. I'm going to be making concrete plans on the room design in the next couple of months hopefully. Its not going to be good if once I decide on RP all the projector solutions come out and are polarized instead of active. I'm planning RP for various reasons, including being able to have multiple projector setups for different uses and having everything hidden. So I'm still not clear on if there is an answer to your question or not. And even if you can do polarized screen for a RP setup, will it then not work for a active-shutter rear setup?

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post #88 of 378 Old 03-28-2010, 09:40 AM
 
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I'm also looking at rear projection for my new HT. I'm going to be making concrete plans on the room design in the next couple of months hopefully. Its not going to be good if once I decide on RP all the projector solutions come out and are polarized instead of active. I'm planning RP for various reasons, including being able to have multiple projector setups for different uses and having everything hidden. So I'm still not clear on if there is an answer to your question or not. And even if you can do polarized screen for a RP setup, will it then not work for a active-shutter rear setup?

I would write an Email or call these people. They will have all the answers to your questions. As you can see, they have a large selection of RPTV screens:

http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/res...tial_main.html
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post #89 of 378 Old 03-28-2010, 09:50 AM
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Thanks Lee, that is worth a shot. But I think some of this won't be final until CEDIA or maybe even CES. One solution would be to go ahead and wire for both FP and RP in my new room, but I really don't want to do that. Another reason to plan the room with a lot of access for future retrofits.

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post #90 of 378 Old 03-28-2010, 09:58 AM
 
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Thanks Lee, that is worth a shot. But I think some of this won't be final until CEDIA or maybe even CES. One solution would be to go ahead and wire for both FP and RP in my new room, but I really don't want to do that. Another reason to plan the room with a lot of access for future retrofits.

You don't have to "wire" for FPTV per se. You can run the conduit and instead of wiring, just used colored heavy duty string. They sell it at Home Depot.
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