3D with Motion Bug with some Displays! - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 03-28-2010, 02:44 AM - Thread Starter
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i do 3d since 30 years and i had in the past many double stack
pr. to do 3d very early digital.

now i have a barco cinema dlp and i use a very good computer to feed
3d content(most still pictures in 3d that i do myself)
and a cinema server was also there to feed some some 3d content i can get.

i am very happy that 3d becomes so popular and this time 3d comes and
will never go.
i wonder why no one talk about the 2 problems this 3d content will have
in the beginning.

1. the 3:2 pulldown motion bug.

all 3d film content are record at 2x 24p(24 frames left eye 24 frame right eye).
this 48p signal at 1920x1080 are at the blue ray 3d disc.
in cinemas they display this lrlrlrlr 48 p signal with the " trippleflash"
that means every 24 left frame are displayed 3 times so you got
72hz per eye and 144 hz for both left and right eye per secound.
thats motion bug free and flicker fee.

so most of the early consumer displays like the panasonic 3d plasma
can not do 144 hz at full hd as there was a bandwith problem.
panasonic and othere will offer 2 things but both have problems.

they are output a 2x 60 hz 3d signal.
problem here as the source is 2x 24p that you will have again a motion
bug call 3:2 Puldown as ther is no way to bring 24p to 60 without
any visible jerky.
a bug that we had before bd was there with 24p.
seams us people as they get used in the past are not so sensitive but europe people are very sensitiv about it as we never have it in our old pal tv system.
problem this bug will be even worse in 3d compare to 2d as it
will be more visible!

2.flicker.

as panasonic 3d plasmas cant do the 2x 72 hz and they know about the motion bug i report they offer a "doubleflash" only that means the 24 left frame are only double to 48p/sec. and same for the right frame
so you got 96 hz means 48 per eye.
in this case you will not see this 3:2 pulldown motion bug
BUT than you will see flicker in bright parts of the picture and that can look
also very bad.

some of the upcomming 3d lcds are offering this 2x 72 hz that have
no motion bug and no flicker but all 3d lcds are suffering more or less
form ghosthing as todays lcd are not fast enough as the return time
is not enough.

its a good start for 3d blue ray as they output 2x 24p the same as they
record this 3d films but its a bad start for companys that will have
displays soon on the market that cant display it flicker free or
motion bug free 3d films as this content was record.
i hear the nex gen. panasonic 3d plasmas can do 2x 72 hz flicker AND
motion bug free.

may we should add here at this forum a list of displays and pr.
that can do 3d at 2x 72 hz motion bug free and filcker free.
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post #2 of 26 Old 03-28-2010, 03:40 AM
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Thanks for some challenging questions. All I can say is having seen the demo of the Panasonic Plasma 3D TV none of the issues were apparent to my US eyes. Do you already have demos there across the pond to compare?
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post #3 of 26 Old 03-28-2010, 04:45 AM - Thread Starter
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there are many "Why" you not have see it.

as the companys know this bug they will show a mix from film 3d that have not mutch
motion where you cant see this bug in combination with video material
in 3d that not have this bug at all if they are smart.

may you are not sensitiv about it as i wrote already.

fact is if the the movie was record at 24p and displayed in 60 you have for
sure a motion bug inside.
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post #4 of 26 Old 03-28-2010, 05:49 AM
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Processing has gotten better..... I dunno, this haf matured to the point on SD-DVD that only a really small percentage of the population even noticed anymore.

3D Displays are comming out at 240hz you know. 120hz per eye. 120hz is considered the minimum spec for S3D from a display.
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post #5 of 26 Old 03-28-2010, 06:48 AM
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I am very sensitive to 3:2 pulldown, too. In pannings is unbearable. And I, too, wondered why the subject is underestimated in the forum.

I didn't know that displays exist that allow 48Hz per eye (it is a beginning to overcome judder, at cost of flicker), but I am afraid that 240Hz LCD displays won't solve the problem, because it seems they are actually 120Hz shot twice, with the insertion of a closed shutter period. In a sense it seems they are 240Hz, but 120fps.

Everything is better explained in this post.

Anyone having more information ?
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post #6 of 26 Old 03-28-2010, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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i think with leds that can do 2x 120 you are safe as
120:24 is 5 times and 120:60 is 2 times.

the beauty is that 120 hz per eye can solve motion bugs from 3d fime based material record in 24p AND 60 hz 3d material.

but there is no need for more shutter speed as it will add also more problem about ghosting and so on.

72 hz per eye in 3d for 24p 3d record content is perfect like most know from
the 3d digital cinemas and 60 hz per eye is more or less flicker free.
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post #7 of 26 Old 03-28-2010, 01:45 PM
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The Samsung displays are not 120Hz per eye, at least according to the Consumer Reports guys. They are 60Hz per eye, with a black frame inserted between frames. As the OP says, the 3:2 pulldown bug is back, at least for now, unless you interpolate between frames (ie motionflow). There is no option to go to 96Hz (48Hz per eye) since it flickers so much.
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post #8 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokeySmoke View Post

As the OP says, the 3:2 pulldown bug is back, at least for now, unless you interpolate between frames (ie motionflow). There is no option to go to 96Hz (48Hz per eye) since it flickers so much.

Ok, so the situation is worst than I thought. Do you have any link ?
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post #9 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 09:52 AM
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24 to 60 has been going on for a longtime. I still think the percentage of the population bothered by this is very small. I mean it used to really stink, but in the last many years, processing has matured.

Those people are going to have to go with 240hz 3D displays most lkely.
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post #10 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 10:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

24 to 60 has been going on for a longtime. I still think the percentage of the population bothered by this is very small. I mean it used to really stink, but in the last many years, processing has matured.

Those people are going to have to go with 240hz 3D displays most lkely.

Which aren't displaying 3D in 120Hz per eye according to Consumer Reports. When in 3D mode, the display drops to 120Hz total, 60hz per eye due to black frame insertions with every other frame.
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post #11 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 12:35 PM
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Interesting, I actually thought that was the real purpose of such displays.
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post #12 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 01:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

Interesting, I actually thought that was the real purpose of such displays.

The 240 and 480Hz refresh rates are for the 2D frame judder relief.

Panasonic uses 96Hz for 2D
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post #13 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 01:29 PM
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jeeezle.. 120hz not enough for some people?

I feel blessed to be not so picky or "effected" as they say. Saves me money in all sorts of ways in HT.
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post #14 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 01:29 PM
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3:2 pulldown has been used ever since they started showing film material on television. If you ever watched The Twilight Zone or Bonanza years ago, those shows were shot on film and shown on TV with 3:2 pulldown. If you watched Cheers or Seinfield later, those shows too were on film and shown with 3:2 pulldown. All of the NFL Films presentations are on film with 3:2 pullown. Most people that watch CSI today are seeing it with 3:2 pulldown. The point is that it looks OK. There has never been a massive cry that the video had too much judder. The 24 frames per second film rate doesn't look very smooth even in theaters. Watch left to right pans in movies, and the whole scene just stutters across the screen. Sure, 5:5 and 10:10 pulldown looks slightly smoother than normal 3:2, but the average person wouldn't even be able to tell if the movie they are watching has 3:2 pulldown or not. Some people here seem to confuse 5:5 pulldown with frame interpolation where extra frames are created to make the film look more like video. I hate film looking like video. The video look is cheap looking, like soap operas and home video. The video look is good for LIVE sports, because you want to believe it's happening now. The film look is better for films because you want to believe they could be any time or any place. And again, the film cadence makes the production appear to be more expensive---but I digress.
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post #15 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 01:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHNnDENVER View Post

jeeezle.. 120hz not enough for some people?

I feel blessed to be not so picky or "effected" as they say. Saves me money in all sorts of ways in HT.

LOL! It's those Asian CEMs and their never ending game of; "Can You Top This" when it comes to numbers.

LCD = 120, 240 and 480Hz

PDP - they saw those numbers and now boast 600Hz - which is the subdrive field's refresh rate

OBTW - we are at . . . .

MEGA Dynamic Range contrast ratio! 10,000,00 to one!

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post #16 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

LOL! It's those Asian CEMs and their never ending game of; "Can You Top This" when it comes to numbers.

LCD = 120, 240 and 480Hz

PDP - they saw those numbers and now boast 600Hz - which is the subdrive field's refresh rate

OBTW - we are at . . . .

MEGA Dynamic Range contrast ratio! 10,000,00 to one!


I just saw a Best Buy ad that said something along the lines of:

Samsung 46" LED 1080p 120Hz HDTV with 4,000,000:1 contrast ratio!!!

OR

STEP UP TO 5,000,000:1 contrast ratio Samsung 46" LED 1080p 240Hz HDTV with motionflow plus technology!



I hate LED edgelit HDTVs. IMO they need to go backlit with local dimming like the original Samsung LED LCDs a few years ago that cost I believe $5k. Someone seriously needs to jump in to regulate contrast ratios and force manufacturers to only be able to list native contrast ratios using a grid pattern.
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post #17 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 05:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

I just saw a Best Buy ad that said something along the lines of:

Samsung 46" LED 1080p 120Hz HDTV with 4,000,000:1 contrast ratio!!!

OR

STEP UP TO 5,000,000:1 contrast ratio Samsung 46" LED 1080p 240Hz HDTV with motionflow plus technology!



I hate LED edgelit HDTVs. IMO they need to go backlit with local dimming like the original Samsung LED LCDs a few years ago that cost I believe $5k. Someone seriously needs to jump in to regulate contrast ratios and force manufacturers to only be able to list native contrast ratios using a grid pattern.


Oh that will go over great with Joe Public . . .

"Announcing the new 2011 Samsung LED LCD - the best contrast ratio we have ever ofered at . . . 1200 to 1."

"See Jane - I told you we should have bought an HDTV last year! Those were 10,000,000 to 1!"



Toshiba, Vizio, LG and one of the Sony's are LED array, local dimming.
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post #18 of 26 Old 03-29-2010, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Which aren't displaying 3D in 120Hz per eye according to Consumer Reports. When in 3D mode, the display drops to 120Hz total, 60hz per eye due to black frame insertions with every other frame.

Lee, do you have a link ?

Thanks.
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post #19 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 12:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

Lee, do you have a link ?

Thanks.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1234663
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post #20 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 10:04 AM
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If the TV is display is running at its native frame diplay rate of 240Hz and the glasses are synching at 120HZ then each eye is receiving 1080p/120 content. I see nothing in the Consumer Reports link to indcate that that each eye is reciving 1080p/60 content and that the glases are synching at 60HZ like they do on the Plasma 3D TVs.
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post #21 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 10:13 AM
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I think Lee refers to this post.
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post #22 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 10:36 AM
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I have the Panasonic 3D display, and player, and you can see flicker when you select 24 or 96 Hz.

Stacey Spears
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post #23 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike5 View Post

I think Lee refers to this post.

I understand but the insertion of an interpolated frame along with blank frame applies to an option for viewing of 60Hz 2D content on the 240HZ unit as follows
1 60Hz frame
1 blank 60Hz frame
1 Interpolated 60Hz frame
1 blank 60Hz frame
When playing Full 3D content it outputs a 120Hz frame for the left eye followed by a 120Hz frame for the right eye.

sspears,
If you have a Panasonic 3D plasma you should not select 24Hz mode and should ony select 96Hz mode for 24fps 2d contetent. For 3D content you should be using 120Hz mode.
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post #24 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I have the Panasonic 3D display, and player, and you can see flicker when you select 24 or 96 Hz.

Congratulations! You appear to be the first person on this forum to have purchased the Panasonic 3D display and player. Could you give us your thoughts on it? Did the player come with the entire demo disk as it is shown at the Magnolia department of Best Buy?
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post #25 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 01:44 PM
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sspears,
Since panasonic has not yet posted either the player or TV use manuals on line yet,
can you please tell us what 3D resoutions and formats will the the TV accerpt and what 3D resolutions and formats will the player output?
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post #26 of 26 Old 03-30-2010, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sspears View Post

I have the Panasonic 3D display, and player, and you can see flicker when you select 24 or 96 Hz.

Great, Stacey. I'm really interested in your impressions of this set. I've seen it a number of times in a Magnolia store. I don't think I've seen it at it's best, because the display environment is not good. I get so much interference from surrounding sets - flickering, a sudden dulling of the image, intermittent loss of the 3D effect. One thing I'm very interested in getting your opinion about is motion in the 3D mode. I've felt sometimes that there is an effect similar to DLP rainbow (but object separation instead of color separation) as I panned my eyes rapidly (especially in the scene with the puppies). Again, it might just be a setup issue. I think most of the footage, if not all, is video sourced, not film (with the possible exception of Astro Boy). That should make for smoother motion at 120hz. My subjective impression of the difference in the motion between the Samsung 7000 and the Panasonic VT20 is that the Samsung looks smoother. Of course, the Samsung has severe ghosting in most of the demos I've seen.

Looking forward to a review.

Joe Clark

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