3D LCD Crosstalk/Ghosting solved by Sharp - New Kid on the Block - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 05:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Just when you thought it might take another year to see a major advance in 3D TV technology......


Sharp, has just announced this morning that it will be joining the 3-D TV fray and claims to have solved the crosstalk/ghosting problems that have eluded the manufacturers of other LCD 3D TVs. Sharp also claims their displays will be brighter than what is now on the market. Although late to announce, the expectation is that the TVs (at least in Japan) will be ready to purchase by June when the semi-annual bonuses are customarily given out by employers in The Land of The Rising Sun.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...atestheadlines


Is it looking more and more that the higher quality 3D TVs are going to be coming from Japan (Panasonic, and now Sharp) with Korea trying to capture the mass market? (Samsung, LG and Vizeo [or is Vizeo based in Taiwan?). It will be interesting to see if Japan's Toshiba will be marketing an improved version of the 2D to 3D technology when their 3D TVs hit the market later this year.
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post #2 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 06:18 AM
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If Sharp has solved the LCD crosstalk problem then it won't be long before theothers do too. I can wait awhile, especially since there's no content.
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post #3 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 06:47 AM
 
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Here is another link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100412/tc_nm/us_sharp3d

Says they will be available by December in the USA
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post #4 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 07:02 AM
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Zero cross-talk is a dream. Check the press release:

http://sharp-world.com/corporate/news/100412.html
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Sharp Corporation has developed the world’s first four-primary-color 3D LCD featuring the industry’s highest brightness*1 with extremely low crosstalk (undesirable double-contour “ghost” images).

5 Backlight technology that makes it possible to reduce crosstalk.

They've discovered backlight scanning
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post #5 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 10:30 AM
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It's an issue that needs to be addressed if they expect 3-D TV to work. The Samsung sets (both LED and Plasma) have intolerable amounts of ghosting in native 3-D mode (though how much of this is caused by the encoding of the MVA disc is unknown. For example, the short "Bob's Big Break" looks miles better than the feature, which during dark scenes has awful ghosting.)

Some have said firmware updates have helped, but I'm not seeing any improvement on the sets in the store that have the latest firmware.
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post #6 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 10:48 AM
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Firmware update seems to have helped but it's still there. The planet scene at the beginning still has the very noticable ghosting, but many scenes are improved.
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post #7 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 12:20 PM
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There is no ghosting in the 2D to 3D conversion so it is something other than the TV causing it.
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post #8 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

There is no ghosting in the 2D to 3D conversion so it is something other than the TV causing it.

You are making a wide logical jump.

Ghosting is most evident in scenes of high contrast and on objects with a wide parallax. If the 2D/3D converter does not generate its 3D effects with comparable results (e.g. if it's not generating wide parallax between objects) than ghosting on the converted image might well appear less noticeable.

But it's really apples to oranges. Unless the converter can produce the same left/right images as a "true" stereoscopic rendering of the same scene, and the two could be compared side by side, it's not a valid comparison.

For example, in the 3DBD of MvA, many people point to the "bridge" scene as exhibiting a good deal of ghosting. Again: high contrast (red cables against a light colored sky) and wide parallax (separation between left/right bridge cables). A good experiment might be to have the converter convert the 2D version of that same scene. Is the parallax between the bridge cables still wide in the converted version? If no, there will be less visible ghosting in the converted version.

I suspect that what you are witnessing in converted 3D is the converter applying a much more conservative amount of parallax between objects. In effect, erring on the side of caution rather than risking an "unnatural" effect.
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post #9 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 01:05 PM
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Yes, the conversion does not make things appear in front of the screen. These could be the problem objects. However, when I have frozen the ghosting objects (from "M vs A"), the ghosting is still there. Leads me to believe it is not the TV. Especially since it is random and not constantly occurring.
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UV2A technology enables ultraviolet-induced multi-domain vertical alignment

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http://www.epn-online.com/page/new12...alignment.html


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http://suppliers.jimtrade.com/91/90084/143867.htm

http://www.barco.com/en/productcategory/182
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post #11 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 01:15 PM
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This sounds promising -- I am amazed at how fast 3D technology is moving.
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post #12 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Yes, the conversion does not make things appear in front of the screen. These could be the problem objects. However, when I have frozen the ghosting objects (from "M vs A"), the ghosting is still there. Leads me to believe it is not the TV. Especially since it is random and not constantly occurring.

Parallax refers to the separation between objects. You can have positive parallax (objects appear farther away), negative parallax (objects appear closer), or zero parallax (objects appear on or close to the screen plane), and everything in between.

With zero parallax, any ghosting (even if present) will be less noticeable because the objects will occupy the same general real estate on the screen. With positive or negative parallax (and especially on high contrast areas) ghosting can more easily be detected simply because the two view of the same object are more physically separated on the screen.

Pausing an image in 3D shouldn't make ghosting any more or less evident (as long as the display is still delivering 3D in paused mode).

But again, I don't see anything in any of what we are discussing that would rule out the tv as the culprit.
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post #13 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 01:58 PM
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post #14 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 02:03 PM
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It also only seems to be on moving objects on my set on the BD. However there is ghosting on th 3D masters clips I've seen and those are from the source AFAIC, too many links in the chain.
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Quatron- in relation to other LCDs, didn't mention plasmas.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post

Quatron- in relation to other LCDs, didn't mention plasmas.

Plasmas don't have a Response Time issue. If an LCD has a 2ms RT, a PDP will be 2000X faster due to it's RT being .001ms.

They have a different issue when it comes to 3D. The decay time of the Red and Green phosphorus.
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post #17 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post

For example, in the 3DBD of MvA, many people point to the "bridge" scene as exhibiting a good deal of ghosting. Again: high contrast (red cables against a light colored sky) and wide parallax (separation between left/right bridge cables). A good experiment might be to have the converter convert the 2D version of that same scene. Is the parallax between the bridge cables still wide in the converted version? If no, there will be less visible ghosting in the converted version.

I've noted this in a couple of bad demos I've seen with the Samsung LEDs. In each case, the displays had been set up improperly. In one store, the Samsung rep had set up the display with a regular Blu-ray player, not the 6900. The TV was doing the conversion. In the other case, the TV was the 46" 3D LCD and the Blu-ray was the 3D Model 6900, but the disc may have been the 2D version. I never found out for sure, because the salesman at this American Electronics store kept insisting that it was set up properly. It wasn't.

At any rate, the TV was doing 2D to 3D conversion. I noticed as soon as I removed the glasses that the offset of the two images was not nearly as great (or as consistent) as it was when the native 3D MvsA disc was being played. If you watch without glasses while the TV is doing the conversion, it's also quite obvious that the offset sometimes shifts significantly even within a single shot - in ways it won't while it's in true 3D mode. Indeed, without the glasses, you can understand a little better how the set is going about creating an artificial parallax view. In the bridge scene, for instance, the support cables sometimes seem to vibrate like piano strings. Again, you can see this happening if you watch 2D to 3D conversion without the glasses.

Another way to know for sure if the MvsA disc you're watching is showing in true 3D mode is to watch lines of text in some of the menus. Instead of a flat paragraph of words, 2D to 3D conversion turns those words into undulating rows, some of which fall off into the background.

That's why the effect is so disconcerting for me. I noticed while watching the new Star Trek movie on the Samsung 55" LCD set that foreground and background sometimes seemed to shift position within a single shot. That's crazy-a$$ 3D and the main reason the conversion is so ineffective. Conversion by the Samsung TVs doesn't simply create a mild but consistent 3D effect. Especially if it's a complex, fast moving scene (like the battle between the USS Kelvin and the Romulan ship in Star Trek) it creates a 3D effect on speed or acid. It's 3D gone horribly wrong, and I just want to turn it off.

IMO, the algorithms for 2D to 3D conversion aren't nearly sophisticated or fast enough for real time. They may get there one day, but I suspect that day is several years into the future. Never say never, though. I didn't watch the whole movie, but I actually found the 2D to 3D conversion of the filmed stage play of "Rent" fairly convincing. Of course, there aren't too many movies that are filmed stage plays. I suspect it worked fairly well because it had very little movement. Virtually none of the background objects moved.

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post #18 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampyro View Post

Quatron

http://www.3d-display-info.com/sharp...st-3d-tv-panel

I'm very interested in Sharp's "quattron" technology, but I don't yet understand what relation it might have to 3D or cross-talk. Except, I guess, in the extremely general sense that adding Y to RGB increases dimensionality, as adding depth to 2D does, or adding height speakers to audio does.

Anyhow, in trying to figure it out, I ran across this Sharp press release, which tries to explain it, and some nice graphics from Sharp illustrating their Quattron system.

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So Sharp adds another color - yellow.

Didn't one of the DLP RPTV's have a 6 colors colorwheel - RGB and YMC?
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post #20 of 34 Old 04-12-2010, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I've noted this in a couple of bad demos I've seen with the Samsung LEDs. In each case, the displays had been set up improperly. In one store, the Samsung rep had set up the display with a regular Blu-ray player, not the 6900. The TV was doing the conversion. In the other case, the TV was the 46" 3D LCD and the Blu-ray was the 3D Model 6900, but the disc may have been the 2D version. I never found out for sure, because the salesman at this American Electronics store kept insisting that it was set up properly. It wasn't.

At any rate, the TV was doing 2D to 3D conversion. I noticed as soon as I removed the glasses that the offset of the two images was not nearly as great (or as consistent) as it was when the native 3D MvsA disc was being played. If you watch without glasses while the TV is doing the conversion, it's also quite obvious that the offset sometimes shifts significantly even within a single shot - in ways it won't while it's in true 3D mode. Indeed, without the glasses, you can understand a little better how the set is going about creating an artificial parallax view. In the bridge scene, for instance, the support cables sometimes seem to vibrate like piano strings. Again, you can see this happening if you watch 2D to 3D conversion without the glasses.

Another way to know for sure if the MvsA disc you're watching is showing in true 3D mode is to watch lines of text in some of the menus. Instead of a flat paragraph of words, 2D to 3D conversion turns those words into undulating rows, some of which fall off into the background.

That's why the effect is so disconcerting for me. I noticed while watching the new Star Trek movie on the Samsung 55" LCD set that foreground and background sometimes seemed to shift position within a single shot. That's crazy-a$$ 3D and the main reason the conversion is so ineffective. Conversion by the Samsung TVs doesn't simply create a mild but consistent 3D effect. Especially if it's a complex, fast moving scene (like the battle between the USS Kelvin and the Romulan ship in Star Trek) it creates a 3D effect on speed or acid. It's 3D gone horribly wrong, and I just want to turn it off.

IMO, the algorithms for 2D to 3D conversion aren't nearly sophisticated or fast enough for real time. They may get there one day, but I suspect that day is several years into the future. Never say never, though. I didn't watch the whole movie, but I actually found the 2D to 3D conversion of the filmed stage play of "Rent" fairly convincing. Of course, there aren't too many movies that are filmed stage plays. I suspect it worked fairly well because it had very little movement. Virtually none of the background objects moved.

The Canada HiFi Magazine just started a thread on this section with some comments on the Samsung 2D to 3D conversion. They said they were skeptical, but after watching some material (2D BDs) they became believers - it is not perfect, but pretty impressive for on the fly 3D conversion and they expect that there will be further improvements to this technology. I've spent some time with 2D to 3D conversion and I'm impressed considering it is a first try. I haven't seen any projector, for example, from a Lumis to a Sony G90 that does everything I want, but they still do a great job.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Didn't one of the DLP RPTV's have a 6 colors colorwheel - RGB and YMC?

Mitsubishi.

Edit: I've run across an interesting explanation of the relationship between "quattron" and 3d due to Gary McCoy, here.

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post #22 of 34 Old 04-14-2010, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I've noted this in a couple of bad demos I've seen with the Samsung LEDs. In each case, the displays had been set up improperly. In one store, the Samsung rep had set up the display with a regular Blu-ray player, not the 6900. The TV was doing the conversion. In the other case, the TV was the 46" 3D LCD and the Blu-ray was the 3D Model 6900, but the disc may have been the 2D version. I never found out for sure, because the salesman at this American Electronics store kept insisting that it was set up properly. It wasn't.

At any rate, the TV was doing 2D to 3D conversion. I noticed as soon as I removed the glasses that the offset of the two images was not nearly as great (or as consistent) as it was when the native 3D MvsA disc was being played. If you watch without glasses while the TV is doing the conversion, it's also quite obvious that the offset sometimes shifts significantly even within a single shot - in ways it won't while it's in true 3D mode. Indeed, without the glasses, you can understand a little better how the set is going about creating an artificial parallax view. In the bridge scene, for instance, the support cables sometimes seem to vibrate like piano strings. Again, you can see this happening if you watch 2D to 3D conversion without the glasses.

Another way to know for sure if the MvsA disc you're watching is showing in true 3D mode is to watch lines of text in some of the menus. Instead of a flat paragraph of words, 2D to 3D conversion turns those words into undulating rows, some of which fall off into the background.

That's why the effect is so disconcerting for me. I noticed while watching the new Star Trek movie on the Samsung 55" LCD set that foreground and background sometimes seemed to shift position within a single shot. That's crazy-a$$ 3D and the main reason the conversion is so ineffective. Conversion by the Samsung TVs doesn't simply create a mild but consistent 3D effect. Especially if it's a complex, fast moving scene (like the battle between the USS Kelvin and the Romulan ship in Star Trek) it creates a 3D effect on speed or acid. It's 3D gone horribly wrong, and I just want to turn it off.

IMO, the algorithms for 2D to 3D conversion aren't nearly sophisticated or fast enough for real time. They may get there one day, but I suspect that day is several years into the future. Never say never, though. I didn't watch the whole movie, but I actually found the 2D to 3D conversion of the filmed stage play of "Rent" fairly convincing. Of course, there aren't too many movies that are filmed stage plays. I suspect it worked fairly well because it had very little movement. Virtually none of the background objects moved.

i'd put it closer to decades in the future!
heck it takes hollywood eight weeks to do a CRAPPY 2D-3D! and a full year to make it reasonably good (And even then it still doesn't really look like it was shot in 3D) and this is with lots of human input and help and the most powerful computing systems and anyone expects some consumer TV to magically do it by itself with no human input, on a crappy little processor, IN REALTIME?!?!?!?!
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post #23 of 34 Old 04-15-2010, 10:30 AM
 
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Sharp Announces 3D TV Panel, Provides Details

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...13/181836/?P=1

3 Pages
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Sharp Announces 3D TV Panel, Provides Details

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...13/181836/?P=1

3 Pages

Interesting. Thanks for the link.

Stephen.

Chances are very good that I was drinking when I posted the above.

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Interesting. Thanks for the link.

The Sharp article is interesting. Sharp certainly seems to feel they have identified the issues and developed solutions. I guess we will have to wait to see how it compares with Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, LG...

I like thin displays as much as the next guy but I would give up half an inch to get local dimming over edge dimming LEDs.
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post #26 of 34 Old 04-15-2010, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Sharp Announces 3D TV Panel, Provides Details

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english...13/181836/?P=1

3 Pages

It was interesting the story says:
"As the problems of the frame sequential method, Sharp cited (1) deterioration in brightness, (2) cross-talk and (3) degradation of the vividness of images. The brightness of 3D images displayed by using the method is 1/10 that of 2D images in the cases of both LCD and PDP displays, the company said.' Most other sources indicate a 70% to 85% loss of light using the sequential method combined with shutter glasses while the article cites 90% light loss. However, if Sharp is using a similar approach to Samsung with their LCD 3DTVs where they refresh at 240Hz but insert a black frame between each video frame - thus the right and left images are only displayed with a 25% duty cycle (at 60Hz per eye). Then when including the additional light loss of the shutter glasses themselves, I suppose the overall light loss could be on the order of 90% (as compared to displaying and viewing 2D images on the same display - i.e., with no black frames being inserted and no light loss for the glasses). However, I doubt any plasma has a 90% light loss since they are using a 120Hz refresh rate with perhaps as much as a 45% duty cycle for each eye (i.e., and no black frames being inserted) and once the loss from the shutter glasses are added the overall light loss is most likely in the 75% to 80% range.

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post #27 of 34 Old 04-15-2010, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. In reviewing that article I note that the Sharp uses side lighting like the Samsung rather than back lighting like the forthcoming LG. It will be interesting to see how the LG and Sharp 3D TVs compare.
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post #28 of 34 Old 04-15-2010, 12:19 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defibaughr View Post

The Sharp article is interesting. Sharp certainly seems to feel they have identified the issues and developed solutions. I guess we will have to wait to see how it compares with Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, LG...

I like thin displays as much as the next guy but I would give up half an inch to get local dimming over edge dimming LEDs.

That is not your standard LED edge lighting. It is a tech that is used in very expensive Pro monitors from the likes of Barco called; Scanning LED Backlight
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post #29 of 34 Old 04-15-2010, 12:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

It was interesting the story says:
"As the problems of the frame sequential method, Sharp cited (1) deterioration in brightness, (2) cross-talk and (3) degradation of the vividness of images. The brightness of 3D images displayed by using the method is 1/10 that of 2D images in the cases of both LCD and PDP displays, the company said.' Most other sources indicate a 70% to 85% loss of light using the sequential method combined with shutter glasses while the article cites 90% light loss. However, if Sharp is using a similar approach to Samsung with their LCD 3DTVs where they refresh at 240Hz but insert a black frame between each video frame - thus the right and left images are only displayed with a 25% duty cycle (at 60Hz per eye). Then when including the additional light loss of the shutter glasses themselves, I suppose the overall light loss could be on the order of 90% (as compared to displaying and viewing 2D images on the same display - i.e., with no black frames being inserted and no light loss for the glasses). However, I doubt any plasma has a 90% light loss since they are using a 120Hz refresh rate with perhaps as much as a 45% duty cycle for each eye (i.e., and no black frames being inserted) and once the loss from the shutter glasses are added the overall light loss is most likely in the 75% to 80% range.

Not all active shutter glasses are equal. The RealD CE's model has a claimed 60% light loss (40% transmission rate) and the Bit Cauldron models also have a high % TR as was seen at CES.
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post #30 of 34 Old 04-15-2010, 01:18 PM
 
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LOL! "The more things change . . . the more they stay the same."

This is a 1972 ad for a Panasonic Quatrecolor Television!

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