Samsung C8000 and Audio Return Channel Problems? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 77 Old 05-31-2010, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi folks -

Before anything else, I want to thank you for the years and years of great advice I've gotten from all of you here. I've lurked for a very long time but never posted until today, as I need help with an Audio Return Channel issue - but before I post, seriously, thanks to all of you for maintaining such a terrific forum.

Essentially, here's the situation: I have a Samsung 58C8000 plasma display updated to the latest firmware. The ARC input of this display is connected to a Denon AVR-891, which, of course, supports ARC. Everything is working just fine - but the ARC will produce only 2 channel PCM audio - not the original source audio (for example, DD 5.1). I've tried everything and have ensured that the original source IS, for example, DD 5.1, and it is. So I'm totally at a loss.

This issue also existed with an Onkyo TX-SR608, so I'm relatlvely certain the issue lies within the display, and not the receiver. Additionally, when ARC is enabled, the only sound setting that is accessible on the Samsung display is 'SPDIF,' and this is permanently set to PCM. There's a DD option, but it's 'greyed out.'

I attempted to call Samsung Tech support about this, but not surprisingly, these guys didn't even know what 'Audio Return Channel' meant - seriously. So I'm turning to you, the experts.

Here are my two questions: First, do I understand correctly that the ARC input on the Samsung displayshould be able to return, say, DD 5.1 signals to my receiver via ARC? If I'm wrong about that and ARC can only pass two-channel PCM, my second question is moot.

Question two: If I *should* be able to get the DD 5.1 signal via ARC from my TV to my receiver, can anybody out there tell me what I'm doing wrong / how I can get the bitstream via ARC, rather than just the 2-channel PCM, from the Sammy C8000?

Thanks for bearing with me and for any help you can offer.
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post #2 of 77 Old 05-31-2010, 09:41 PM
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It may be due to EDID limitation
Please post moninfo report for this HDMI port
http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm
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post #3 of 77 Old 05-31-2010, 09:56 PM
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is ARC the the digital audio out on the TV? If so, then it only does 2.1/pro logic unless it's from and OTA signal.

:)
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post #4 of 77 Old 06-01-2010, 08:05 AM
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I'd have to agree as I have a PN63C8000 and an Onkyo 608 and there is no problem getting DD 5.1 OTA. We don't have cable.
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post #5 of 77 Old 06-01-2010, 02:03 PM
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I have the 55CU8000 and the Onkyo 608 and so far the ARC feature is working just fine. I have my fat PS3, and Dish VP722 running into the reciever and then HDMI from the reciever to the tv.I had to go into the recievers menu and set up the ARC feature. I did notice that all the sounds setting are greyed out while using the 608. But I believe when I turn off the Amp I can then adjust the tv speakers. One thing I have noticed is when im on the Internet Tv function I cant get the sound to go thru the reciever, it will only run thru the tv speakers
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post #6 of 77 Old 06-01-2010, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi folks - thanks for all of your good answers. JacknSC, question for you: when you say that the audio return channel is working just fine, can you confirm a) that you have a Dolby Digital source other than an over the air broadcast feeding into your display and b) that this source (say, a Blu-Ray player or Apple TV or such) is returning full DD 5.1 (or something like that) to your receiver?

By the way, I should mention that my display is actually a Samsung PN58C8000 - the plasma device, not the LED. Just FYI, if that makes a difference.
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post #7 of 77 Old 06-02-2010, 01:38 PM
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dr. keith, I am getting DD 5.1 along with All channel stereo on my 608 reciever. Of course everything is running via hdmi to the reciever, and then out to the TV. I use the reciever to do my switching of sources between my fat PS3 and Dish Dvr. The only time I cant get any sound thru the reciever is when I use the internet apps on the cu8000, then I have to turn off the amp and I get sound thru the tv speakers. Hopefully this helps
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post #8 of 77 Old 06-02-2010, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikl1984 View Post

It may be due to EDID limitation
Please post moninfo report for this HDMI port
http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

The EDID does not matter in this case. The ARC spec states that only 2 channel PCM is mandatory. Anything above that has to be discovered by the TV through CEC messages sent to the amplifier. The TV asks for specific compression codecs, and the the amplifier responds by sending back those codec designators it supports. This, by the way, works for a separate SPDIF cable from the TV to the Amp as well.

I would suspect that there is some sort of CEC communication problem between your two components. Can you force compressed audio on the TV's SPDIF and ARC audio output, through some menu maybe?
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post #9 of 77 Old 06-02-2010, 06:39 PM
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Thanks for explanations about ARC
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post #10 of 77 Old 06-03-2010, 06:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Scarabeus - I suspect you're exactly right. So far as I can tell, I'm the only person using the Samsung Plasma, and I'm getting the 2 channel PCM only, whereas persons using other components (even Samsung LCDs) with ARC are getting full DD 5.1 via ARC. And it just about has to be the display at fault, as I've now used two different ARC compatible receivers, with the problems showing up on both of them.

Unfortunately, there are no settings on the TV that will allow for the kind of management you suggest. There is a setting in the TV that allows a user to choose whether to output DD or PCM via HDMI, but in every case I've tried, the DD option is 'greyed out,' so PCM is the only option available - and that's what I'm getting: 2 channel PCM.

This is really too bad. Honestly, the display is one of the best I've ever owned, and the 3D looks terrific (I think that if you're going to do 3D, you just about have to use plasma - but that's just my opinion.) But this issue with ARC coupled with Samsung's absolutely inept support makes me wonder whether I should've waited for the next round of Panasonic displays, which people have universally loved.

In any case, perhaps this ARC issue with the Samsung plasma displays will be addressed shortly with a firmware update. I'd tell you Samsung knows about the problem, but as I said in my original post, they didn't even seem to know what ARC actually was when I spoke to them. They asked me 'if I was trying to get all my speakers to play.' Unbelievable.

So, if I find a way to solve this problem, I'll definitely update, but in the meantime, if anyone else out there solves this issue, please post to update us all.
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post #11 of 77 Old 06-11-2010, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.keith View Post

Hi Scarabeus - I suspect you're exactly right. So far as I can tell, I'm the only person using the Samsung Plasma, and I'm getting the 2 channel PCM only, whereas persons using other components (even Samsung LCDs) with ARC are getting full DD 5.1 via ARC. And it just about has to be the display at fault, as I've now used two different ARC compatible receivers, with the problems showing up on both of them.

Unfortunately, there are no settings on the TV that will allow for the kind of management you suggest. There is a setting in the TV that allows a user to choose whether to output DD or PCM via HDMI, but in every case I've tried, the DD option is 'greyed out,' so PCM is the only option available - and that's what I'm getting: 2 channel PCM.

This is really too bad. Honestly, the display is one of the best I've ever owned, and the 3D looks terrific (I think that if you're going to do 3D, you just about have to use plasma - but that's just my opinion.) But this issue with ARC coupled with Samsung's absolutely inept support makes me wonder whether I should've waited for the next round of Panasonic displays, which people have universally loved.

In any case, perhaps this ARC issue with the Samsung plasma displays will be addressed shortly with a firmware update. I'd tell you Samsung knows about the problem, but as I said in my original post, they didn't even seem to know what ARC actually was when I spoke to them. They asked me 'if I was trying to get all my speakers to play.' Unbelievable.

So, if I find a way to solve this problem, I'll definitely update, but in the meantime, if anyone else out there solves this issue, please post to update us all.

i'm having the same issue, HDMI from my DirecTV receiver to the TV, then SPDIF from the set to my AVR1910 since all my 3D sources need to go direct to the TV (my AVR1910 won't pass 1.4)...this sucks
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post #12 of 77 Old 06-12-2010, 09:54 AM
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To those of you with receivers that support ARC, are you able to get 5.1 from movies on Vudu? Since Vudu is the only Samsung App. that supports 5.1 audio I wonder if the TV would pass that.

Update: Answered my own question with my new receiver. I can confirm that it is possible to get DD+ 5.1 from Vudu on the ARC. I love the ARC feature.
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post #13 of 77 Old 06-23-2010, 10:45 AM
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I have a Panasonic TC-P58VT25, a Panasonic DMBDT350 ( which has the dual HDMI outputs ) and an Onkyo TX-SR608. I hooked up the 350 BD player to my Onkyo 608 via HDMI 1 and to my Panny VT25 via HDMI 2 in order to test the ARC. When playing a BD in the 350 and going directly to the Onkyo 608, everything works as it should. DD, DD TrueHD, DTS, DTS MasterAudio, etc. are clearly indicated on the display. When I use the HDMI 2 input, going directly to the TV and using the ARC to the Onkyo, the following are the results:
  • When viewing OTA channels, audio is sent to the Onkyo as decoded by the ATSC tuner, whether it be Dolby 2.0 or DD 5.1
  • When viewing cable channels, audio is sent to the Onkyo as decoded by the QAM tuner, whether it be Dolby 2.0 or DD 5.1
  • When viewing signals from the Panny BD player, audio is sent to the Onkyo as decoded by the player, if it is DOLBY - either 2..0 or DD 5.1. However, DTS is converted to 2 channel PCM ( just as the manual states ). I'm not sure if this is a function of Panasonic TVs only, or if all TVs do this as well.

This is good news for any external signal sources connected to the Panny plasma, whether it be a device such as a DVD player or an internet source, such as Netflix ( once they start sending 5.1 via internet connection ) and other media providers.
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post #14 of 77 Old 08-15-2010, 02:13 PM
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I have a Samsung PN58C8000 TV and a Denon AVR-591 receiver. I get my TV over the air with an antenna and I was hoping to use ARC to pass the audio to the AVR, but I can't get it to work. I've got the TV connected to the AVR in the HDMI 2 (ARC) slot on the TV and the TV audio set to external speakers. The AVR is set to have HDMI control on. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Any help would be greatly appreciated!

-Jim
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post #15 of 77 Old 08-17-2010, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJChris View Post

is ARC the the digital audio out on the TV? If so, then it only does 2.1/pro logic unless it's from and OTA signal.

I'm not sure about Samsung, but with Panasonic, the ARC can, indeed, send 5.1 audio from sources other than OTA, unlike the optical or coaxial digital audio output. However, Panasonic limits the audio format to DD 5.1, as it converts DTS to 2.0 PCM. Of course, it clearly states all of this in the manual. The ARC works just fine on my Panasonic TC-P58VT25 where I have only a single HDMI going between my Panny and my Onkyo TX-SR608.
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post #16 of 77 Old 08-18-2010, 01:59 AM
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With my Samsung LED, I had to set Anynet+ (HDMI-CEC) to On.
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post #17 of 77 Old 09-16-2010, 10:18 AM
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Is anyone experiencing audio drop outs? I am using the ARC function between a Samsung 46C8000 and Onkyo SR 508 and the drop outs are making it un-usable. I have tried with Anynet+ On and Off, and have the proper input sets on Onkyo (TV/CD) and have enabled HDMI control...
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post #18 of 77 Old 10-05-2010, 10:37 AM
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Dr kieth

First forgive me I'm typing on an iPad.

I too had the same issue but with a samsung un55c 8000

Long story short you cannot send Dolby digital over the hdmi arc from these samsung tv's. It will only send stereo. I too spent time with useless samsung customer support, and finally found someone that confirmed that the samsung tv will not send Dolby digital over arc. I was still skeptical until I decided to go through the manual. At the beginning of the manual it sort of explains this under the "connections" section (page 11 in my manual yours may be different) using and optical digital.

I believe you were trying to receive over the air signal connected by antenna direct to the tv then arc to receiver. From this method you will not be able to get dolby digital. Only stereo.

I was going from a HD cable box to the tv then back to a marantz receiver through arc. This too produces only stereo. Unlike you however, I can hook up and optical to slink to the back of my HD cable box and it will finally receive Dolby digital. So the arc is useless with samsung tv's for Dolby digital.

For those interested in why this maters: my wife and kids don't need or want to use the home theatre receiver. They just want to be able to turn on the tv and cable box to watch tv. I figured the arc would solve this, and it did, in that the receiver didn't have to be on to receive audio (audio from tv), but when i wanted to watch with the receiver on, it only output stereo audio. To solve this issue, I needed to run a to slink optical cable to the receiver from the HD cable box rendering ARC useless to me.

In summary I have the hdmi running from the cable box to the tv and optical audio from cable box to the receiver. When receiver is off, audio plays through tv, when receiver is on, audio plays through receiver in Dolby digital.

Again, there is no way to get 5.1 from samsung tv to your receiver. Now if someone can get samsung to explain why they have a sound option on the tv for Dolby digital. ( greed out).
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post #19 of 77 Old 10-06-2010, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by berniec View Post

i'm having the same issue, HDMI from my DirecTV receiver to the TV, then SPDIF from the set to my AVR1910 since all my 3D sources need to go direct to the TV (my AVR1910 won't pass 1.4)...this sucks

Is there any way to tell this box to send the audio out to the optical instead of HDMI?
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post #20 of 77 Old 10-06-2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Incomeoutgo View Post

Long story short you cannot send Dolby digital over the hdmi arc from these samsung tv's. It will only send stereo.

Both my Samsung TV and BD player have apps for Netflix, Amazon VOD, etc. So if I use the TV app, I won't get 5.1 but if I rent the movie through the BD player hooked up to my AVR, I get 5.1?

If that's the case I don't see a use for the ARC. Disappointing but at least I have a workaround. People with different set-ups will be unhappy.
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post #21 of 77 Old 10-06-2010, 08:27 PM
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Hi friends,

I have a question that is somewhat similar to this topic. I recently installed a 8000 series LED panel for a friend and ran into some issues.

The goal was for him to be able to watch youtube videos with sound coming from his speaker system. Firstly, the audio output on the back of the unit is mini-toslink. No problem, I ran over to Microcenter and found an adapter for a regular optical cable. I plugged it in to the TV & the receiver, set the tv for external audio out, no luck. Then I hooked up a pair of headphones to the 3.5 audio out jack on the tv; sound was coming from them. So is that the way I've got to do this?

Thanks!
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post #22 of 77 Old 10-07-2010, 07:34 PM
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I don't understand where the misinformation is coming from. The ARC (and optical cable) will pass DD5.1 for all content that originates from the C8000 TV itself, such as the tuner or streaming video. It will not pass DD5.1 from external sources, such as a DVD plugged into the TV's HDMI port. It should go without saying that the AV receiver must also support ARC, but I will anyways. And as I mentioned before, Anynet+ (HDMI-CEC) needs to be on for the ARC to work.
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post #23 of 77 Old 10-24-2010, 05:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiDefRev View Post

I'm not sure about Samsung, but with Panasonic, the ARC can, indeed, send 5.1 audio from sources other than OTA, unlike the optical or coaxial digital audio output. However, Panasonic limits the audio format to DD 5.1, as it converts DTS to 2.0 PCM. Of course, it clearly states all of this in the manual. The ARC works just fine on my Panasonic TC-P58VT25 where I have only a single HDMI going between my Panny and my Onkyo TX-SR608.

Would you mind posting the steps to get this setup, as I cannot get my Panasonic TC-P54G20 and Onkyo TX-NR3008 to work?

As for the Panasonic manual, the one for the VT25 must be much better. The one for the G20 has hardly any mention of the ARC function. Thanks.
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post #24 of 77 Old 10-28-2010, 01:07 AM
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HDMI port #2 labeled DVD on my Denon AVR-791 allows the cable box to function with the amp off, there is no need for the TOSLink. No matter which HDMI input was last used on the Denon it defaults to the DVD HDMI input when the amp is off. Thus you can leave all your components fed into the amp then to the TV and receive Dolby 5.1/7.1 on all capable inputs when the amp is on and your family can just turn on the tv and cable box to watch tv. I am in the same boat with a PN58C8000 and was first disappointed till I realized port 2's function. I haven't seen any documentation on this. One more cool thing about the amp is the 7.1 channels can be configured for 'Bi-Amp' mode allowing you to drive main speakers with bipole inputs(separate speaker inputs for high and low frequencies) doubling your front speaker wattage, in my case 90wrms to 180. Another unadvertised feature. It is my first day with this gear I keep posted.

Cheers
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post #25 of 77 Old 11-03-2010, 08:09 AM
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I played with this forever.

I have an older non hdmi reciever that I love and also dont care if I have an HDMI receiver because I like the fact I can tweak each display input individually on the TV using the TV's hdmi ports.

I have a Sammy p50nc680.

Now this should work IMHO.

I have a PS3 and an HDMI cable box both Anynet compliant and messing with every setting I could imagine cannot pass dolby or DTS back to reciever.

Why is simply passing along a signal so damn hard?

Time to rethink my wiring ....
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post #26 of 77 Old 11-03-2010, 01:37 PM
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You display is NOT an audio processor or an Auidio distributor period. I would never expect it to work myself. Best of luck with it.


What they really need to do? Is take out all audio and speakers from displays going forward.
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post #27 of 77 Old 11-30-2010, 11:04 AM
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Hi guys - I have a few questions please regarding HDMI control and ARC with my Samsung PN63C8000:

1) I want to use ARC. In order to do so I MUST enable HDMI CEC both on the AVR and TV. However when I do this, the Samsung causes my receiver to switch to AV4 when it first powers up and picture is first displayed. However the audio from the STB is really on HDMI 2, which it was on before the TV told the receiver to switch.

Please see my full report about this here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post19557719

Is anyone else having this issue. According to Yamaha technical support the problem is with the Samsung telling the TV to switch to the TV input and the Yamaha is just doing what it is told.

I am not sure if indeed that is the case, or if I could eliminate this issue by changing from my Yamaha RXV receiver.

Thoughts?

2) From what I have seen the Samsung down converts DTS to 2.1 channel sound. This apparently is the case both for ARC and the optical output. That really stinks. If the sound was in DD 5.1 format, would it down convert that too or would I at least get 5.1 that way? As a side, I am able to get 5.1 when streaming Vudo through the TV (both over optical and ARC), but cannot when streaming mkv over my network. Any way around that? 2.1 is the pits!

3) What are you guys using as a DLNA server on your PC to feed the Samsung? Recommendations? Anything that will down convert mkv to DD 5.1 on the fly maybe?

Thanks!
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post #28 of 77 Old 11-30-2010, 12:15 PM
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I have a UN46C8000. I'm not sure what other features are different aside from plasma vs LED, but here goes:

1. I take it you are streaming using the TV or are using the media player. If you have a STB and never use OTA broadcast or streaming via the TV then you'd never have to worry about ARC. As it is, you want to use the ARC feature to send audio to the AVR. On the UN46C8000, HDMI 2 is the only HDMI input that has ARC. It's marked HDMI 2(ARC) on the back of the TV, so this should HDMI cable connection to the AVR.

For me, dealing with the CEC switching issue is one of managing the power-up order of components on the system. If I do STB then TV then AVR, I'm "usually" alright. If not, then the AVR will tend to switch to the OTA TV signal. My living room is small, so it's not a big deal or annoying hassle for me to switch sources as needed. I could see others getting seriously annoyed by it, and maybe a universal remote is in order.

2. The UN46C8000 does support DTS within mkv, of course this is true as long as you know that the mkv contains a core DTS audio stream. As far as I know the TV does not support DTS HD streams. Start the video, go to tools, audio options and switch to DTS. The difference in enabling DTS is huge compared to downsampled stereo which, for me, my AVR converts to multichannel via Dolby ProLogic.

By the way, my TV manual says that it supports LPCM. I've tried to bit-for-bit conversions of lossless audio streams, Dolby TrueHD and DTS MasterAudio, to LPCM, multichannel wave, raw PCM but never had much success getting the TV to playback. DTS is perhaps the best you can do, but it does work and it sounds great.

3. I use Samsung's own PC Share Manager. The software does no conversion. If the audio stream is not compatible for some reason, it's fairly quick and simple to convert the audio using eac3to and repack using mkvmerge. There's a guide for this here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post13961911
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post #29 of 77 Old 11-30-2010, 07:06 PM
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I own the PN63C8000YF and chatted with a Samsung technician today. You can only get 5.1 out of HDMI2 (the ARC hdmi), if you are receiving over the air programming. If the input(=source) is cable or blu ray, it outputs 2.1.

I think its part of the HDMI spec/agreement, to prevent copying of 5.1 audio from certain sources.

To get 5.1 audio if you are using cable, etc - take it from the TOS (optical) output of the cable or DVR box. You can use HDMI at the same time, of course. If you have multiple sources, buy a $20.00 TOS switch.
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post #30 of 77 Old 11-30-2010, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carny_Priest View Post

I have a UN46C8000. I'm not sure what other features are different aside from plasma vs LED, but here goes:

1. I take it you are streaming using the TV or are using the media player. If you have a STB and never use OTA broadcast or streaming via the TV then you'd never have to worry about ARC. As it is, you want to use the ARC feature to send audio to the AVR. On the UN46C8000, HDMI 2 is the only HDMI input that has ARC. It's marked HDMI 2(ARC) on the back of the TV, so this should HDMI cable connection to the AVR.

For me, dealing with the CEC switching issue is one of managing the power-up order of components on the system. If I do STB then TV then AVR, I'm "usually" alright. If not, then the AVR will tend to switch to the OTA TV signal. My living room is small, so it's not a big deal or annoying hassle for me to switch sources as needed. I could see others getting seriously annoyed by it, and maybe a universal remote is in order.

I am using the Samsung apps for Netflix and Vudu. I wanted to use ARC to get the audio from these apps over to the receiver. Unfortunately due to the input switching issue I mentioned I have given up on using ARC and am just feeding the optical out from the Samsung back to the AVR that way. Do you see any downside to this, aside from having to use an extra (optical) cable in the setup?

The challenge I have is that the TV takes about 5-7 seconds for the picture to warm up and come on. As soon as it does, having HDMI Control on the receiver and TV causes the TV to tell the receiver to switch to the TV input. This then moves my receiver off of HDMI 2 (where it needs to be) and over to an AV input on the receiver which is mapped to ARC. However no sound is coming through ARC at that point since its just the STB playing. Yes later if I use Netflix or Vudu it works, but most times I'm just TV watching. This means after the power on sequence I have to manually switch the AVR back to HDMI 2. That's not acceptable so I've given up on ARC unfortunately. Maybe one day they'll be a fix or someone will discover a work around.,..

Quote:


2. The UN46C8000 does support DTS within mkv, of course this is true as long as you know that the mkv contains a core DTS audio stream. As far as I know the TV does not support DTS HD streams. Start the video, go to tools, audio options and switch to DTS. The difference in enabling DTS is huge compared to downsampled stereo which, for me, my AVR converts to multichannel via Dolby ProLogic...

Yes! This is exactly the step I was missing. I tried it and it works wonderfully. Thank you so much!!

Quote:


3. I use Samsung's own PC Share Manager. The software does no conversion. If the audio stream is not compatible for some reason, it's fairly quick and simple to convert the audio using eac3to and repack using mkvmerge. There's a guide for this here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post13961911

I tried to get the Playstation Media Server (PMS) going because I like that it'll transcode (?) the audio on the fly if it needs to. But I couldn't get it configured. It had nothing to do with the Samsung. Rather, I couldn't get it to see my PS3 (or Samsung either). I installed PC Share Manager and it does the trick.

Question: Is there any way to get the Media Play function on the TV to remember PC Media Share as the default DLNA server? Every time I go into the menu (or maybe its after a power off/on, but still...) it defaults to my USB drive in the TV or Media Player on my PC networks. So I have to press the "A" key and navigate to select "PC Media Share" to find the media I want.

Thanks again!
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