3D projector using Infitec method? - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:18 PM
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You mention that you had to matrix the colors, which explained why color alterations in the projector wouldn't suffice. I'm not really sure what that means; is color matrixing something that's usually available on CMS processors?
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Old 02-24-2011, 04:02 PM
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I dont know if CMS processors can do that. I took a look at the Radiance XD Video Processor specs. It says: Primary / Secondary Color Gamut Calibration (3D CMS Palette)

CMS is better than nothing but I doubt the range be wide enough to make up for the huge color shifts. Also, you would have access only to primaries and secondaries. That would be a 8 vertex color 3Dcube. I use a 125 vertex 3Dcube. Same as Pterodactyl (see previous page).

I have no idea whether CMS can do matrix transforms such as:
R' = a11 R + a12 G + a13 B
G' = a21 R + a22 G + a23 B
B' = a31 R + a32 G + a33 B

..with different parameters for each of the 256^3 colors... IMO only 3DLUT tables can do that.

Jack
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Old 02-24-2011, 04:37 PM
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Hm... that's what I was afraid of. A reasonably good (IMO) solution would be if an htpc could accept an hdmi 1.4 input (720p-60 frame packed or 1080p-24 frame packed) and display it real-time side-by-side spanning two displays (the two projectors), with corrections applied for the user's projector - but as far as I'm aware, no PC hdmi capture/input card is capable of that. Or of course if a standalone box could do so, but I'm beginning to think that's not within the realm of possibility, whereas a PC would almost have that capability with the right input card, if it had the right software.
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Old 02-25-2011, 03:18 AM
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My ghosting test: http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpbb/viewtopi...11320&start=95

Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Or of course if a standalone box could do so, but I'm beginning to think that's not within the realm of possibility...

Too bad because box spec is very easy:
1 HDMI input
2 HDMI outputs
1 USB input (key containing LUT tables)

Jack
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:41 AM
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they make a color correction box for VGA, it is not 1080P and it is expensive

http://shop.more3d.com/Webshop/Produ...ilter-set.aspx
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:05 AM
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I got a proposal from Infitec in june 2010 (if you are interested ):

Quote:


Dear Mr. ,

the light class is critical. If you have a very dark room it should be no problem. We recommend an color correction in our laboratorium in Ulm for your projectors. We don´t have color correction dates for this projector yet. You can calculate approx. 4.000,00 for an Infitec filter set with your projector. If you need an offer with our business paper please talk with us.

Kind Regards,
Manfred Reich

info@infitec-global-sales.com

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Old 02-26-2011, 11:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RasterEyes View Post

I've now heard about home projectors that use shutter glasses, projectors that use polarized glasses but need a silver screen, but I haven't heard about anything for home use that uses this technology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereos...nfitec_glasses

That's what I want for a home 3D system. You get both the simplicity of passive glasses AND flexibility of screen type. Since I'm in no big rush to convert to 3D, that's what I'm hoping will be on the market by time I'm ready.

I'm also thinking that if laser projection matures a bit more for the home market, that could be an efficient way to produce a very bright image compatible with the Infitec 3D process, with the lasers precisely tuned to the six primary colors used by the system, no light energy wasted by filtering on the projection side of the system, and very little wasted by the passive glasses.

The only problem is the different color gamut for each eye.
Also it requires two projectors.
The cheappest method would be to buy two pairs of glasses and scrap one for projector filters by dissasembling it.
It should work for small projectors with samll lenses.
The single projector is expensive as it requires mechanical filter wheel.

Mathew Orman
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:44 AM
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Great thread! Any new news on an affordable color corection box (non HTPC)?

Something like this, but cheaper (i'm sure it's big bucks):

http://www.cine-tal.com/products/dolby3D.asp
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Old 03-23-2011, 09:57 AM
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Like that, except cheaper, with hdmi support, and with demultiplexing capability....

I actually hold out hope for the 3d-vip 3d-theater, but I've yet to hear any confirmation about how well the CMS works, or how versatile the adjustments are. If it's capable of this level of correction, it could possibly be the answer....
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

Like that, except cheaper, with hdmi support, and with demultiplexing capability....

I actually hold out hope for the 3d-vip 3d-theater, but I've yet to hear any confirmation about how well the CMS works, or how versatile the adjustments are. If it's capable of this level of correction, it could possibly be the answer....

Does it support dual 1080P outputs or do you have to buy 2 boxes like the Optoma? If only 1 box is needed, does the CMS work seperately for each output?

Thanks
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Old 03-23-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Does it support dual 1080P outputs or do you have to buy 2 boxes like the Optoma? If only 1 box is needed, does the CMS work seperately for each output?

Thanks

Never mind, just saw a picture of it. it only has 1 input and 1 output, how would it support a 2 PJ setup?
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:34 AM
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two boxes and a splitter, just like the 3d-xl.
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by defiancecp View Post

two boxes and a splitter, just like the 3d-xl.

ah ha ok. Did anyone ever confirm if the Radiance Mini could do the color correction or not?
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Old 03-23-2011, 03:07 PM
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no, never got an answer on that one either
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Old 04-08-2011, 04:31 AM
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Just a random thought - instead of an avisynth script, you could probably do the full quality color correction in real-time using shaders on the video card. MPC-HC supports shaders and comes with a bunch of examples.

Since you are doing the double-wide trick to keep both projectors synched the first thing the shader would need to do is to determine which half of the double-wide screen the pixel was on and then apply the appropriate transformation for that projector's filter.

My gut says that coding up such a shader would be relatively easy since such transformations are exactly the kind of thing that shaders are great at.

In fact, the MadVR renderer which uses shaders "under the hood" even has the ability to load a 3DLUT, but as of now, its just one LUT, not two. I bet the author, madshi, might consider adding support for 2 LUTs if you asked him.

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Old 04-09-2011, 08:10 AM
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Maybe I am wrong but don't using shaders imply that you are using CUDA?

I have ATI and the splitting is done outside with a triplehead2go digital. Thats the only way I found to be able to use overlay and reclock.

I am pretty happy with the setup as is as I am no gamer. Still I recently found an alternative to AVS script:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post20269971

Both methods are ok with me. Other users may find the shader approach interesting. I count on them to experiment...

Jack
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Old 04-10-2011, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikenificent1 View Post

Great thread! Any new news on an affordable color corection box (non HTPC)?

Something like this, but cheaper (i'm sure it's big bucks):

http://www.cine-tal.com/products/dolby3D.asp

The price of current professional color correction units is order of magnitude of 5000 euros.

We hope to have a similar device for home theater use later this year, among other formats including splitting HDMI 1.4 3D input -> 2x HDMI 1.3 outputs for dual projector setups, with switchable color correction (off for polarized setups, on for Dolby/Infitec). Price is expected to be in 200-500 euros range; can't be more precise because bill of materials is not finalized yet.
If there is interest I'll offer a discount for preorders.
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Old 04-11-2011, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post

The price of current professional color correction units is order of magnitude of 5000 euros.

We hope to have a similar device for home theater use later this year, among other formats including splitting HDMI 1.4 3D input -> 2x HDMI 1.3 outputs for dual projector setups, with switchable color correction (off for polarized setups, on for Dolby/Infitec). Price is expected to be in 200-500 euros range; can't be more precise because bill of materials is not finalized yet.
If there is interest I'll offer a discount for preorders.

That sounds great. Hopefully your product will come to fruition. That would be excellent.
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Old 04-11-2011, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post

The price of current professional color correction units is order of magnitude of 5000 euros.

We hope to have a similar device for home theater use later this year, among other formats including splitting HDMI 1.4 3D input -> 2x HDMI 1.3 outputs for dual projector setups, with switchable color correction (off for polarized setups, on for Dolby/Infitec). Price is expected to be in 200-500 euros range; can't be more precise because bill of materials is not finalized yet.
If there is interest I'll offer a discount for preorders.

Excellent. Would there be a physical input for custom color tables? USB ?
Or included software/calibration patterns to build our own tables?
Or a selection of predefined tables for listed projectors?

Would price include the filters?

Jack.
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Old 04-11-2011, 12:29 PM
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Pterodactyl,
Sounds great! Please keep us posted.
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Old 04-12-2011, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

Excellent. Would there be a physical input for custom color tables? USB ?
Or included software/calibration patterns to build our own tables?
Or a selection of predefined tables for listed projectors?

Would price include the filters?

Jack.

Physical input (USB 2.0 or SD card or something like that), yes.

Software, yes.

Predefined tables, we would like that as it would give some security to customers to use proven and certified values, but since we don't have resources to test large numbers of projectors, probably just few generic ones will be included, with additional tables for concrete models downloadable as we acquire them from customers or manufacturers or our own tests. Manufacturer tables might be protected (impossible to view or edit individual points in software); custom tables can be freely shared.

8-channel 192/24 PCM analog audio output may be included (without bass management or anything fancy, for start).

Filters are actually not completely impossible, we are looking into that, it's too early to say.
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Old 05-01-2011, 07:11 AM
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@pterodactyl

A few more questions if you don't mind:

Do you have a preliminary spec of the box?

If not:

1. What about frame rate? Would the outputs be the same frame rate as the input regardless of the value?
I know HDMI 1.4 is a well defined standard, but I am wondering about sources such as PCs with expected output frame rates @ 24, 30, 48, 50, 60 fps. (As I do not have frame interpolation in the projectors, 48 or 50 fps inputs would be a big plus)

2. In 2D mode, only one projector is used. Will there be a true passthrough mode regardless of input format? How about sending the input directly to one *or* the other projector without having to swap cables? (*)

3. Any kind of remote control or switches to force input format if not automatically recognized ?

Optional question (I do not expect a positive answer on this one...):
- How about including frame interpolation in the box? Say 24fps input and 48fps outputs...

Thanks for your answers. This product sounds great!

EDIT: (*) Or just passthrough 2D input signal to both outputs simultaneously...

Jack
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Old 05-02-2011, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

Do you have a preliminary spec of the box?

Not yet, only a general outline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

1. What about frame rate? Would the outputs be the same frame rate as the input regardless of the value?
I know HDMI 1.4 is a well defined standard, but I am wondering about sources such as PCs with expected output frame rates @ 24, 30, 48, 50, 60 fps. (As I do not have frame interpolation in the projectors, 48 or 50 fps inputs would be a big plus)

Generally frame rate on the outputs would be the same as on the input(s). PCs and all usual frame rates will be supported (like 24 Hz).
The box may include 2 HDMI inputs to support 2 full HD streams @ 60 Hz for gaming and presentations.

Let me know if I missed something here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

2. In 2D mode, only one projector is used. Will there be a true passthrough mode regardless of input format? How about sending the input directly to one *or* the other projector without having to swap cables? (*)

Agreed, that is already planned.

(One of possible hardware designs includes 4 inputs and 4 outputs that can be routed at will.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

3. Any kind of remote control or switches to force input format if not automatically recognized ?

There probably won't be automatic recognition of input formats in first version of the box (other than HDMI 1.4 3D), meaning side-by-side etc. will probably need to be manually selected by remote or pushbuttons on front panel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack-bauer View Post

Optional question (I do not expect a positive answer on this one...):
- How about including frame interpolation in the box? Say 24fps input and 48fps outputs...

We didn't think about that... Just duplicating the frames is trivial, but wouldn't mean much (if you feed 24 fps to a projector, it actually already displays 48 or 72 fps, simply duplicated or triplicated). I'll see what we can do.
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Old 05-03-2011, 03:12 AM
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Thanks for the answers. Seems very promising

(Of course, I meant real frame interpolation, not simple double/triple flash. That could be a hardware option ).

Jack
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Old 05-04-2011, 03:54 AM
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About frame interpolation, I am told we have more than sufficient memory bandwidth and probably enough of computing resources, but the challenge is finding suitable mathematics. We already have some ideas; if possible, the feature will be included.
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Old 05-04-2011, 04:33 AM
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That would be a real plus. Could come as an option. Will suggest potential customers to get cheaper projectors as FI is included only on expensive ones.

As a result, a complete set of two projectors and box could be cheaper than most current 3D sequential projectors... And this is passive Dolby3D! Interesting...
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Old 05-09-2011, 04:26 PM
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Okay, pterodactyl,

Just sell us one already!
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Old 05-15-2011, 05:03 AM
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Eh, I'll post a notification as soon as we know the retail price and can accept preorders. Roughly we expect sales to start last quarter this year.

Motion interpolation will not make it this year, but we will try to include it in the next generation of devices (I am even over the weekend preparing some documentation about it). The devices will be upgradeable, so the feature could be added to previous generations simply by flashing new firmware; unless there is some physical limitation, like not enough processing capabilities.

Also, we established contact with Infitec... but I can't say more yet, except that we are talking about some stuff...
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Old 05-25-2011, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Eh, I'll post a notification as soon as we know the retail price and can accept preorders. Roughly we expect sales to start last quarter this year.

Motion interpolation will not make it this year, but we will try to include it in the next generation of devices (I am even over the weekend preparing some documentation about it). The devices will be upgradeable, so the feature could be added to previous generations simply by flashing new firmware; unless there is some physical limitation, like not enough processing capabilities.

Also, we established contact with Infitec... but I can't say more yet, except that we are talking about some stuff...
Will this work with frame sequential (pc source) and frame packed (HDMI 1.4a source) to split to L & R channels and then apply the relevant color correction for each channel?
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:07 AM
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As a note, frame sequential is losing importance; most PC sourced material can do frame packed now that both Nvidia and ATI support it at a driver level (ati via HD3D and Nvidia via 3dtv play).

examples I know of that work with both ATI and Nvidia frame packing - Stereoscopic player, tmt5, powerdvd bd3d, iz3d, 3dvision, tridef...

The only thing I know of that doesn't work with frame packed is Roxio's bluray 3d player on ATI - this uses a software frame sequential mode for ATI. But even this might work with nvidia frame packing, since it supports 3d vision
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