Current State Of Crosstalk/Ghosting - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 98 Old 06-28-2010, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Ghosting has gotten better with firmware releases. It's not an either/or proposition. Think of watching without glasses at all as the worst case scenario for ghosting - both images are on the screen at the same time, all the time. When the TV and/or the glasses are not doing what they are supposed to, ghosting will occur. I don't know exactly what Samsung did in the firmware upgrades, but the degree and frequency of ghosting did decrease significantly in the demos I saw. The Golden Gate Bridge scene of MvsA has almost no ghosting on my Samsung plasma now. Before the update, I saw plenty of ghosting on similar sets. I have to look closely now to see it. High contrast scenes used to be really terrible. They aren't nearly as bad now.

Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs shows almost no ghosting, but they achieved that by flattening out the image dramatically. That is, contrasty subject matter is very limited, and I remember seeing only a few shots that had even a hint of ghosting. The other side of that coin is that the 3D effect (IMO) doesn't work as well as it does in MvsA, and the movie isn't as visually interesting. I imagine, until ghosting is improved (my guess - with better shutter glasses), we'll have to live with crosstalk, or reduce the overall contrast of the scenes. At this point (if I'm right), I'm not sure which of those is the preferable option.


Thank you for your detailed information. I like the Samsung sets especially for the price but just want the ghosting issue to be a non factor. The only image on these sets important to me is the 3D image.
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post #32 of 98 Old 06-28-2010, 05:07 PM
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Ghosting is an artifact caused by cross talk. Different people will or will not see it. Cross talk can not be completely eliminated. Better glasses in the future will be the big difference. Getting the images on the screen at the right time and syncing and timing the glasses is real important too. There is no its fixed. It depends on the viewer and a bunch of other things as I have said before.

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post #33 of 98 Old 06-28-2010, 06:38 PM
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I now believe that the reason for almost no ghosting on the DLP 3D compatible TVs is due to the fact that they worked hard with Nvidia to insure that Nvidia 3D player which suports the playing of 3D games using 720p frame sequential format had no ghosting due to the display of the frames by the TV and the signal to the glases to switch eyes controled by the Nividia software on the PC were in Sync. I am not sure how this is done but I suspect that it done based on the 60HZ AC power signal which are identical to both the TV and the PC.
And in the case of DLP link glases there is no possiblity of the TV and the glases being out of sync since the White flash that causes the glases to switch is displayed on the T
V screen itself between frames.
Therefore the only cross talk that can occur with a DLP TV is caused by the glases themselves by not closing the inactive frame lens completly and this is minimal due to the fast response time or DLP displays.
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post #34 of 98 Old 06-28-2010, 08:33 PM
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I saw crosstalk on an nVidia/Mitsubishi DLP display set up in a local Ultimate Electronics. As a matter of fact, it was the first 3D demo I saw (at least a local demo, just before the new 3D TVs started to ship). The ghosting was severe, but the viewing environment was awful, with lots of glare and reflection.

There also have been some reports of ghosting with DLPs here on 3D Central. For instance, some people report crosstalk on Samsung DLPs before they make a change to "PC" as the source input. (I suspect high contrast causes crosstalk until the video signal level is set properly on the DLP.)

I think crosstalk is just one of those things we're going to have to live with for a while. Hopefully, it will go away altogether eventually, but , while it's disappointing to see it, I've made up my mind not to let the problem detract too much from enjoying 3D. That frame of mind seems to help.

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post #35 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 12:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Another interesting article about 3D quality can be viewed at:http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/...-than-sony.php

I had felt that there was some polarization being used in the shutter glasses I have tried and these tests confirm this. Hey guys, why do shutter glasses need polarized filters? I thought the point of shutter glasses was not to use polarization. Are the issues raised in this article the reason the Sony 3D experience seems so poor?
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post #36 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 12:47 AM
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I demoed a Samsung C8000 a few weeks ago and found the crosstalk to be offputting to the point of me writing them off my (very) shortlist. Sounds like thats been addressed though which is good news.

How do I find out what firmware a TV is running? I'm guessing it'll be difficult to find a C8000 on a shop floor with new firmware on it
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post #37 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I saw crosstalk on an nVidia/Mitsubishi DLP display set up in a local Ultimate Electronics. As a matter of fact, it was the first 3D demo I saw (at least a local demo, just before the new 3D TVs started to ship). The ghosting was severe, but the viewing environment was awful, with lots of glare and reflection....

Right out of the box, the Mits DLP RPTVs have their Picture mode set to "Brilliant". It is a mode that the Mits manual recommends for "bright lighting" conditions. In this mode you will see ghosting.

If you change the picture mode to anything else (Bright, Normal, etc.) the ghosting will be alleviated.
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post #38 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

I now believe that the reason for almost no ghosting on the DLP 3D compatible TVs is due to the fact that they worked hard with Nvidia...

FWIW, I have tested my Mits 65737 with some $30 10-year-old eDimensional shutter glasses, and I see virtually zero ghosting with them as well.
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post #39 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post



Be aware too that the XpanD x102s aren't perfect. Others on the board have commented on reliability issues (I have 3 pair and haven't had any such issues). There are other issues as well. The lenses on all three pair of mine have some non-uniformity to them that causes light to refract differently on different spots of the glasses. It's kind of like looking though an old plate-glass window that's slightly warped in spots. This causes certain parts of your view to appear slightly out of focus.

Unfortunately, if you want to go DLP-Link right now, XpanD is the only game in town. But I'll be anxious to do some comparisons when other CEMs enter the game.

What you are seeing is called birefringence. It occurs primarily with polarized lenses. It won't affect the clarity of the lenses, however. It is more prominent with prescription polarized lenses, especially if any sort of high base curve (wrap) is involved. It will show stress points on the lens caused by the edging of the lenses from their semi-finished blank. It is just the stress induced on the polarized film within the lens during the edging process. I am an optician and deal with this on a daily basis.
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post #40 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post

Right out of the box, the Mits DLP RPTVs have their Picture mode set to "Brilliant". It is a mode that the Mits manual recommends for "bright lighting" conditions. In this mode you will see ghosting.

If you change the picture mode to anything else (Bright, Normal, etc.) the ghosting will be alleviated.

Actually, my second demo of a Mits DLP at a different Ultimate Electronics convinced me that ghosting could be a non-issue with those sets. That demo, a few weeks ago, was set up in a dark corner of a back area - no reflections, no glare. It was the best environment for viewing 3D that I've seen to date, and there was no ghosting that I could detect in the nVidia demo material. I helped my sister pick out a Mits 65737 the other day, and she's really looking forward to HD (and 3D down the line).

Both the viewing environment and the DLP settings will affect how much ghosting we see with these sets. The basic problem here is that digital video can be set for PC or video signals, to achieve the proper range (0-255 or 16-235). If improperly set, the image will be either extraordinarily flat (no contrast) or overly dark and contrasty. High contrast exaggerates ghosting.

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post #41 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

There also have been some reports of ghosting with DLPs here on 3D Central. For instance, some people report crosstalk on Samsung DLPs before they make a change to "PC" as the source input. (I suspect high contrast causes crosstalk until the video signal level is set properly on the DLP.)

Yep, if you don't change the input to "PC", you will see quite a bit of ghosting in reds and blues.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #42 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post

Right out of the box, the Mits DLP RPTVs have their Picture mode set to "Brilliant". It is a mode that the Mits manual recommends for "bright lighting" conditions. In this mode you will see ghosting.

If you change the picture mode to anything else (Bright, Normal, etc.) the ghosting will be alleviated.

Right on.
The default mode for TVs is what is normally referred to as "Torch Mode" since TV stores normally have very bright overehead lighting and the manufacturers wants his set to look brighter then other brand's set sitting next to it and the stores do not change any settings when they put the units on display.
It appears from your post that Mits uses the name Brilliant for their default Torch Mode. Normally in a home environment a only needs to be set to be about 1/2 as bright as when in a store.
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post #43 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFMike View Post

Another interesting article about 3D quality can be viewed at:http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/...-than-sony.php

I had felt that there was some polarization being used in the shutter glasses I have tried and these tests confirm this. Hey guys, why do shutter glasses need polarized filters? I thought the point of shutter glasses was not to use polarization. Are the issues raised in this article the reason the Sony 3D experience seems so poor?

The active shutter glasses use LCD panels to block the passing light, or let it trough. This works by rotating a linear polarisation by either X or X+90 degrees. For this to work, two linear polarisation sheets are necessary, one on each side of the LCD. The resulting light coming through an LCD is always linear polarized.

Actually, active shutter glasses that are used with an LCD screen can omit the front polarizer sheet, since the light is already polarized, and can thus increase the light throughput.
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post #44 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 06:13 PM
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Some degree of cross talk will always be present just like there is always some degree of cross talk in multi chanel (two or more) audio reproduction. Ghosting is an artifact of cross talk. It is viewer dependent among other things. i really wish the terms were not used interchangeably by consumers. The trick is eliminating ghosting which is done by reducing but not eliminating cross talk.

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post #45 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Some degree of cross talk will always be present just like there is always some degree of cross talk in multi chanel (two or more) audio reproduction. Ghosting is an artifact of cross talk. It is viewer dependent among other things. i really wish the terms were not used interchangeably by consumers. The trick is eliminating ghosting which is done by reducing but not eliminating cross talk.

Ghosting caused by cross talk can be reduced by lowering the brightness level of the video content since it will lower the amount of leakage via the glases if the lens for the inactive eye does not close fully.
Ghosting caused by the the display on the TV screen and the signal by the TV to its emitter not being in sync can only be fixed by updates to the TV's firmware as has been demonstrted by the very significant reduction in ghosting using the Samsung firmware updates to both their LCD and Plasma 3D models.
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post #46 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 07:16 PM
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The content plays a huge part as well. Properly created 3D content will have less to zero cross talk that crappy created content does.
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post #47 of 98 Old 06-29-2010, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Some degree of cross talk will always be present just like there is always some degree of cross talk in multi chanel (two or more) audio reproduction. Ghosting is an artifact of cross talk. It is viewer dependent among other things. i really wish the terms were not used interchangeably by consumers. The trick is eliminating ghosting which is done by reducing but not eliminating cross talk.

Thanks, Mark, for pointing out the difference. Because I've been guilty of using the two terms interchangeably, I'll try to add a little clarity to the distinction, as I understand it. I appreciate clarity, so if I'm inaccurate with any of the following, someone please correct it. Here's Wikipedia's explanation of "crosstalk" in stereoscopic 3D:

"In Stereoscopic 3D Displays, "crosstalk" refers to the incomplete isolation of the left and right image channels so that one leaks or bleeds into the other - like a double exposure. In this area, crosstalk and ghosting are often used interchangeably, however crosstalk is a physical entity and can be objectively measured, whereas ghosting is a subjective term and refers to the perception of crosstalk."

Unlike audio recording, a true stereoscopic 3D recording has no crosstalk in the recording itself. The left eye camera records only the left eye view, the right eye camera only the right. Crosstalk is a result of imperfect display technology (such as lag time in LCD displays), imperfect synchronization technology (such as what the Samsung firmware updates have addressed), and imperfect 3D glasses (polarized glasses that are incapable of blocking all the light from the other eye view, or LCD shutters that do not, in fact, close completely, but instead let a fairly significant amount of the light through even when they're "closed"). In a very real, quantifiable sense, crosstalk can be measured. I think it's altogether possible that we will one day have a 3D stereoscopic system that will have no crosstalk at all. We "simply" have to make sure that one eye sees only what it's supposed to. (In the easier-said-than-done category, but definitely doable, I would think.)

"Ghosting" refers to the perception of crosstalk by the individuals viewing the 3D, and it is therefore a subjective term. Measurable crosstalk is imperceptible ghosting, if no one can see it. Based on what I've seen with my own shutter glasses (Samsung, but the Panasonic ones are very similar in terms of crosstalk), there must be measurable crosstalk in virtually every single 3D shot I've seen. In other words, the shutter glasses never completely block out all the light. AVSer Frank has a thread where he's posted test images which effectively demonstrate crosstalk with shutter glasses.

Crosstalk is irrelevant if ghosting is imperceptible. For the most part, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs limits ghosting far more than Monsters vs Aliens. The producers do it, I think, by using a color scheme, light intensity and contrast that mask the crosstalk extremely well. OTOH, I don't like the 3D effects as much in Cloudy, even though MvsA has some very distracting ghosting. It's definitely not a perfect world yet.

In the end, then, we can put it this way:

With current consumer 3D systems, crosstalk is present in virtually all shots. Some systems do a better job than others of limiting ghosting, which is the crosstalk that people can actually see. The silver lining is that crosstalk need not be present in a 3D recording, so improving ghosting should be achievable. Since I'm hopeful that 3D is here to stay this time around, I look forward to a time in the future in which there will be no crosstalk at all, and therefore no possibility of ghosting.

I'll be equally as happy if crosstalk can be limited enough that there is no perceptible ghosting, even in the most challenging, high contrast shots.

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post #48 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 12:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Great explanation of terms Joe...Thanks. And thanks to scarabaeus for his explanation of polarization going on in the shutter glasses. However I'm still not clear as to why the polarizers in the glasses will block the light from the TV screen when turned 90 degrees. Does that mean there is a polarizing screen built into the TV screen?
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post #49 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFMike View Post

Great explanation of terms Joe...Thanks. And thanks to scarabaeus for his explanation of polarization going on in the shutter glasses. However I'm still not clear as to why the polarizers in the glasses will block the light from the TV screen when turned 90 degrees. Does that mean there is a polarizing screen built into the TV screen?

If you have an LCD screen, yes. That's how the panel works, just as I explained the LCD shutter glasses, only they have three switchable areas for each pixel (one each for red, green and blue).

Don't forget that "LED" TVs are actually "LED-Backlit LCD" TVs. In europe, they have to be labeled as such by law, to avoid consumer confusion when actual (O)LED TVs come out.
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post #50 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 07:51 AM
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Just to weigh in, I very rarely have ghosting on my VT20 (panasonic), and when I do, it's very mild. I mostly run the panel in THX mode, or game mode, and it has been nothing short of satisfying at all times. Also unlike Sony, I can tilt my head a full 90 degrees, and I get no additional ghosting. Perfect, because I have been able to watch stretched out on my couch.

In fact, my only complaint is that the nose piece can get uncomfortable after 2 hours. This is across my PS3, A whole lot of world cup games, and multiple views of Frank's stuff.

Between the Samsung ghosting and the Sony angle sensitivity, I am pleased with my investment.
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post #51 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
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Just to weigh in, I very rarely have ghosting on my VT20 (panasonic), and when I do, it's very mild. I mostly run the panel in THX mode, or game mode, and it has been nothing short of satisfying at all times. Also unlike Sony, I can tilt my head a full 90 degrees, and I get no additional ghosting. Perfect, because I have been able to watch stretched out on my couch.

In fact, my only complaint is that the nose piece can get uncomfortable after 2 hours. This is across my PS3, A whole lot of world cup games, and multiple views of Frank's stuff.

Between the Samsung ghosting and the Sony angle sensitivity, I am pleased with my investment.

The Samsung plasma and the Panasonic plasma both exhibit ghosting with certain material. There's not a lot of difference.

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post #52 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 10:52 AM
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Well Joe, perhaps that's true, but based on my own subjective experiences, the panny was a superior 2d panel, and blew the samsung plasmas out of the water when it came to ghosting. This is based on hours of instore impressions, and at least 100 hours of viewing on the VT20, whose blacks have not faded a bit.

People refer to "butt dyno" on car forums for two similar cars; the Sammy plasma and panny plasma may be close, but the panny is more pleasing at a gratuiitous, more emotional level, and for the money, buy the one you love. I would have had regrets with a Sammy or Sony because of their issues which I took time to experience myself.
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post #53 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 12:53 PM
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Well Joe, perhaps that's true, but based on my own subjective experiences, the panny was a superior 2d panel, and blew the samsung plasmas out of the water when it came to ghosting. This is based on hours of instore impressions, and at least 100 hours of viewing on the VT20, whose blacks have not faded a bit.

People refer to "butt dyno" on car forums for two similar cars; the Sammy plasma and panny plasma may be close, but the panny is more pleasing at a gratuiitous, more emotional level, and for the money, buy the one you love. I would have had regrets with a Sammy or Sony because of their issues which I took time to experience myself.

While I think the Panasonic plasma may have a very slight advantage over the Samsung in terms of ghosting, I'm not 100% convinced that's true. I've seen every available 3D display in my area, multiple times, and for extended viewing periods. My first experience of the Samsung plasma was, probably, very similar to yours. Since the firmware upgrades, though, that simply isn't the case anymore. I have the 63" C8000 plasma, and the ghosting on it and the Panasonic do not appear significantly different to me.

I'll admit, based on my own unscientific "testing," that the Panasonic appears to have the contrast and black level edge in very dark scenes. That difference disappears as the scenes get brighter. In terms of motion, both sets are virtually indistinguishable to me. There's film judder, because they both operate at 60hz per eye. You simply can't eliminate judder on the Samsung. You can on the Panasonic, but at 48hz per eye, which introduces so much flicker that it's unwatchable. It's useless. We're stuck with film judder on 3D sets until one comes along that gives us 144hz (3:3 pulldown). I really do expect to see that sometime next year. Hopefully, it will solve the problem without flicker. I thought I was done with film judder, but alas, it rears its ugly head again on this first generation of 3D sets.

What the Panasonic can't do is 2D > 3D conversion. Much to my surprise, I find myself enjoying it a lot more than I ever thought I would. My main viewing is still on a 110" projection system. If I had bought a Panasonic 3D TV, I would have used it very little, because there are only so many times you can watch MvsA or the Panasonic demo disc (and now Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs). With the Panasonic, and without conversion to tide me over, I think I'd already be experiencing severe buyer's remorse. As it stands, I expect to enjoy whatever is available in real 3D over the next few months. At that point, hopefully, I'll have my first 3D projector. Until then, I can also use conversion when I get hungry enough for 3D.

And people need not explain to me for the umpteenth time why conversion is not good. I've read those arguments over and over and over. Believe me, I know better than most of those people what the drawbacks are. I've used it extensively. If you want to use conversion, it's there on any Samsung 3D TV. If you don't want to use it, that's a few less button presses to worry about learning.

None of these first generation sets are perfect. It's my experience that there's no such thing a a perfect display of any kind, at any price. What you have to do is learn to enjoy what you can afford and not stress too much about a display's deficiencies. I see as much as I can, pick what I like, then try to appreciate it for its strengths. That's why I'm enjoying the Samsung so much.

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post #54 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 02:15 PM
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My own impression is that conversion is inferior to properly filmed, native stereoscopic content. That said, yes there is a dearth for content. This is the reason why I am seriously pissed off at nvidia for not releasing the 3dtv Play drivers yet that allow me to hook up my computer to my tv and send 3d content over. I can manually set the TV to SbS or TnB, but those situations do not allow me to use the software based 2d->3d solutions in PowerDVD 10 and ArcSoft. Once it is released, my PC will allow me to convert materials and content to 3D while still having the superior Panasonic plasma. I chose to invest in the better set for the future rather than the gimmick of today, especially when I can produce the gimmick myself.
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post #55 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 03:17 PM
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Abilor, I had the same idea.

I jumped on the refurb Gateway SX2800 deal to get a quad-core cpu for dirt cheap to act as my htpc. I may add a low profile video card to replace the intel gma unit it came with.

The issue I ran into was, how can I watch live sports, concerts, etc. in 2D -> 3D conversion? The Samsungs, Sony and Cell TVs can do it. But how would an HTPC do it?
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post #56 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 03:33 PM
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You'd need to watch the online stream with Stereoscopic player if the stream is available. OR record it and then watch it with the player at a later time.
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post #57 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 03:44 PM
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I believe PowerDVD10 Ultra MarkII which has not yet been released supports 2D to Faux 3D conversion.
Sterecoscopic player AFAIK does not offer a 2D to 3D conversion feature.
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post #58 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 04:09 PM
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ahh, your right. I just confused myself with what was asked.
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post #59 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Joseph,
The major problem that Samusng had with both their LCDs and their Plasmas apparently used the same firmware responsible for synching the output from the emitter with actual frame update(refresh) on the TV screen and they were not occuring at the same time resulting in ghosting. They also might have reduced the contrast in high contrast frames to reduce potential cross talk in the glases themselves. The Golden Gate bridge scene may actually be caused by the creation of the MVC 3D blu-ray format when developing the +Delta content from the 2D format due to the high contrast in the scene.

Walford, I am to understand that M vs. A was not a ture 3D movie at the theaters and it was just converted for this MVC ( what ever that is) 3D blu-ray?
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post #60 of 98 Old 06-30-2010, 05:32 PM
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Hi folks, I have a Sammy plasma C8000 and in the midst of converting to a Panny V25... before the Panny set ships I want to confirm if my set is defective or it is an inherent behavior of Sammy plasmas:

For those with the C7000 or C8000 series plasmas or V25 plasmas, can you please check the following 3D (side-by-side) trailer of "How to Train Your Dragon" and let me know if you see any cross-talk in any of the scenes? If you do see any, can you please share which detail has it? Thanks!

Link to trailer: http://www.biohemmet.se/ccount/click.php?id=91

On my C8000 set, I see it in 70% of the scenes accompanied with a dozen flickers (when the glasses try to sync with the tv)...
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