Current State Of Crosstalk/Ghosting - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 01:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I would really like to hear from current 3D TV owners and others about their experiences with the crosstalk/ghosting levels on the current TV brands out there. I'm very excited to upgrade to a 3D model but conflicting information online and my in store experiences have me dazed and confused as to the varying quality of the 3D image. The first Samsungs to reach the stores had bad crosstalk playing MvsA but then I guess there was a firmware upgrade that helped. I just saw a Samsung 8000 series set with what I was told was the latest firmware and it looked very good while the 7000 series set in the same store still looked bad though I was told it had been upgraded.

The Panny plasma sets have some crosstalk but look pretty solid. Last Sunday I saw part of a soccer match at the Sony store on their new set and it was awful. Sony's demos have all been full of crosstalk since they started showing their sets. Very disappointing.

There has also been talk online that the MvsA disc Samsung has been using in all their demos might be a poor 3D compression job and some of the crosstalk evident on it may be kind of "burned in" to the disc so it isn't the set or players fault that it is so pronounced. Or is it the glasses?!?!

So guys, any thoughts on your experiences with this issue. Is it getting better or is this something we have to live with if we want home 3D.
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post #2 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 05:42 AM
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I have the new Sony HX800 and on this production set there is NO crosstalk.

I have watched two Soccer games and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, all in 3D, without a ghosting problem.

As of yet, Samsung has yet ti fix their crosstalk problem. Go to the bridge scene on M vs. A and look at the red suspension pieces holding up the bridge; plenty of crosstalk and this is with their latest firmware upgrade #1020.

The Panasonic plasmas are very good also regarding this crosstalk issue but not as bright and suffer from burn in; at least the one at my local BB has this problem and they can't get rid of it.
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post #3 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 09:12 AM
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Ghosting is the perception of cross talk and will vary depending on the particular viewer. Crosstalk is what causes ghosting to be seen by some at varying degrees. Cross talk can be objectively measured. There are variety of things in the 3D chain that cause crosstalk. The subject is very complex, there are lots of white papers and doctorial thesis. Basically, as 3d shutter glasses get better, crosstalk will decrease. That is when the particular eye image is flashed on the screen (and a factor here is how quickly that image is extinguished by the display, within the manufacturer`s control but technology dependent also) the corresponding lens in the glasses must quickly open completely and completely shut quickly while the image is being flashed. The imasge must extinguish on the screen, the other eye image must be completely flashed, and the glasses do their job for that image. Over the next years we should see the art advance and crosstalk being almost eliminated with far fewer viewers complaining of ghosting artifacts. This is a simple explanation, very incomplete, eliminating source issues.I certainly don`t understand it comprehensively. Of course, as the glasses open quickly and shut quickly the brightness will further decrease. It isn`t simple.

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post #4 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 09:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

Ghosting is the perception of cross talk and will vary depending on the particular viewer. Crosstalk is what causes ghosting to be seen by some at varying degrees. Cross talk can be objectively measured. There are variety of things in the 3D chain that cause crosstalk. The subject is very complex, there are lots of white papers and doctorial thesis. Basically, as 3d shutter glasses get better, crosstalk will decrease. That is when the particular eye image is flashed on the screen (and a factor here is how quickly that image is extinguished by the display, within the manufacturer`s control but technology dependent also) the corresponding lens in the glasses must quickly open completely and completely shut quickly while the image is being flashed. The imasge must extinguish on the screen, the other eye image must be completely flashed, and the glasses do their job for that image. Over the next years we should see the art advance and crosstalk being almost eliminated with far fewer viewers complaining of ghosting artifacts. This is a simple explanation, very incomplete, eliminating source issues.I certainly don`t understand it comprehensively. Of course, as the glasses open quickly and shut quickly the brightness will further decrease. It isn`t simple.

You make it sound like crosstalk is an artifact of active shutter glasses. It can be. But you can also see crosstalk with passive polarized glasses.

You are correct though - it is not simple.
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post #5 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 09:52 AM
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Lee. I just focused on cross talk with shutter glass systems because all the consumer stuff for panels is shutter glass. With polarized FP systems the chain, the screen, the glasses, particular non circular, all cause cross talk. But the poster was talking panels that are shutter glass viewed.

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post #6 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bontrager View Post

I have the new Sony HX800 and on this production set there is NO crosstalk.

I have watched two Soccer games and Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, all in 3D, without a ghosting problem.

As of yet, Samsung has yet ti fix their crosstalk problem. Go to the bridge scene on M vs. A and look at the red suspension pieces holding up the bridge; plenty of crosstalk and this is with their latest firmware upgrade #1020.

The Panasonic plasmas are very good also regarding this crosstalk issue but not as bright and suffer from burn in; at least the one at my local BB has this problem and they can't get rid of it.

Wow, it's great you find no crosstalk on your Sony HX800! Unfortunatly this is part of my frustration with the early batches of 3D TVs. I believe that your set has solved this problem but why can't Sony get it together to exhibit this on the sets they are trying to sell in their own Sony Style stores! These aren't some big box locations but their own showcases of their current technology. So now I've seen mediocre demos in 3 different Sony Style locations. My findings were the same as those recently reported on the HDTV Magazine site. http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/...nwatchable.php

I had high hopes for the Sony as I am a Sony fan but so far they haven't been able to demo a watchable picture in their OWN STORES.

Regarding the Golden Gate Bridge scene from M v.s.A, were you able to view it on your HX800? I've never seen this scene free of ghosting and I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't an encoding problem on this transfer. It had the same level of ghosting on the Panny plasma as it did on the Samsung sets. Makes you wonder....Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs was encoded by Sony and I've heard only good things about thier discs played on any system.
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post #7 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFMike View Post

...Regarding the Golden Gate Bridge scene from M v.s.A, were you able to view it on your HX800? I've never seen this scene free of ghosting and I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't an encoding problem on this transfer. It had the same level of ghosting on the Panny plasma as it did on the Samsung sets. Makes you wonder....Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs was encoded by Sony and I've heard only good things about thier discs played on any system.

If absence of crosstalk is one of your primary criteria, you owe it to yourself to audition the Mitsubishi DLP RPTVs. I have watched MvA in its entirety on one, and witnessed virtually no ghosting, so I'm extremely confident that it's not baked into the disc's encode.

And regarding Cloudy, I think that film's color scheme goes a long way in disguising crosstalk on sets with ghosting problems. There simply aren't a lot of scenes with high contrast areas like there are in MvA (such as the bridge cable scene you noted.)
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post #8 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesn View Post

if absence of crosstalk is one of your primary criteria, you owe it to yourself to audition the mitsubishi dlp rptvs. I have watched mva in its entirety on one, and witnessed virtually no ghosting, so i'm extremely confident that it's not baked into the disc's encode.

And regarding cloudy, i think that film's color scheme goes a long way in disguising crosstalk on sets with ghosting problems. There simply aren't a lot of scenes with high contrast areas like there are in mva (such as the bridge cable scene you noted.)

+1

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post #9 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 12:19 PM
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James,
Were your 1/2 R Checkerboard to your DLP and were you using IR ASG or DLP-link ASG glases?
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post #10 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

James,
Were your 1/2 R Checkerboard to your DLP and were you using IR ASG or DLP-link ASG glases?

Panasonic DMP-BDT350 outputting checkerboard to Mitsubishi DLP RPTV and using XpanD x102 glasses (DLP-Link). Also tried same player and tv with cheap eDimensional glasses and emitter...same results: near zero ghosting.
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post #11 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 02:09 PM
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I have the Samsung 7000 55" LED. The firmware updates had seemed to fix the ghosting issue, but I just got Cloudy yesterday and was disappointed to clearly see it on the Open Season and Monster House previews. Have not watched the movie yet, but the problem is NOT fixed on the early LED TV. Maybe the 8000 LED is different.
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post #12 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 03:34 PM
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I tried the Samsung 40" LCD, and MvA still had considerable ghosting with Firmware 1019. The ghosting gets worse when you look through the top or bottom part of the glasses (i.e. nod your head a bit), so you really have to keep your head straight.

After updating the TV to 1021, I'm glad to report, the ghosting is almost completely gone. There is still a bit, and the view through the top or bottom of the glasses is still not so good, but it's a huge improvement.
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post #13 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesN View Post

Panasonic DMP-BDT350 outputting checkerboard to Mitsubishi DLP RPTV and using XpanD x102 glasses (DLP-Link). Also tried same player and tv with cheap eDimensional glasses and emitter...same results: near zero ghosting.

One possible reason for the DLP having less ghosting is that the upscaling of the 1/2 R checkerboard content to full 1080p somehow reduces the difference between the left and right eye images.
More likely is that the DLP-Link glases are the reason for less ghosting since the IR glases are subject to IR interference such as from even slight flickering regular or CFL flourescent lights. Or it could be the DLP-Link glases for some reason do a better job of completly closing the lens for the inactive eye.
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post #14 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

One possible reason for the DLP having less ghosting is that the upscaling of the 1/2 R checkerboard content to full 1080p somehow reduces the difference between the left and right eye images.
More likely is that the DLP-Link glases are the reason for less ghosting since the IR glases are subject to IR interference such as from even slight flickering regular or CFL flourescent lights. Or it could be the DLP-Link glases for some reason do a better job of completly closing the lens for the inactive eye.

The reason it has less/no ghosting with DLP is because of how a DLP image is made. LCD uses pixels that need to change for each frame which in 3D leads to residual picture since it's too fast for the pixels to completely transition.

DLP has the mirrors so it is fast enough to completely transition from one frame to the next without any residual image retention.
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post #15 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by walford View Post

...More likely is that the DLP-Link glases are the reason for less ghosting since the IR glases are subject to IR interference such as from even slight flickering regular or CFL flourescent lights. Or it could be the DLP-Link glases for some reason do a better job of completly closing the lens for the inactive eye.

I don't think it is the glasses. I have done a/b comparisons between XpandD x102s (DLP-Link) and cheap eDimensional (IR) glasses using the same BD player, same DLP tv, and same source material. I see near zero ghosting using either type of glasses.

I prefer the XpanDs to the eDimensionals for other reasons, but in terms of crosstalk, they appear to perform equally IMO.
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post #16 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

One possible reason for the DLP having less ghosting is that the upscaling of the 1/2 R checkerboard content to full 1080p somehow reduces the difference between the left and right eye images...


That makes no sense. The right eye pixels are interpolated from the right eye image, and vice versa.

Quote:


...More likely is that the DLP-Link glases are the reason for less ghosting since the IR glases are subject to IR interference such as from even slight flickering regular or CFL flourescent lights. Or it could be the DLP-Link glases for some reason do a better job of completly closing the lens for the inactive eye.

The reason is the same reason that DLP doesn't suffer from motion blur (LCD) and plasma trails (plasma).

http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/
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... pixel response time which is up to 1,000 times faster than nearly any other imaging technology.


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post #17 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 05:36 PM
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I saw the Sammy 7000 LED the day it was put on display in my local BB. The ghosting made the picture look awful but apparently the new firmware has alleviated the problem. I was in Sears a few hours ago and they had a UN55C7000 playing MvA. There was no ghosting but the motion blur was sickening. I was wearing my own Samsung shutter glasses and a sales guy asked if he could help. I said no (because I didn't think he would know how). There was a remote handy so I went into the user menu and turned off the motion blur. The resulting picture was near perfect. They're starting to get it right.

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post #18 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JamesN View Post

I don't think it is the glasses. I have done a/b comparisons between XpandD x102s (DLP-Link) and cheap eDimensional (IR) glasses using the same BD player, same DLP tv, and same source material. I see near zero ghosting using either type of glasses.

I prefer the XpanDs to the eDimensionals for other reasons, but in terms of crosstalk, they appear to perform equally IMO.

Where did you get your XpanDs, James? I just helped my sister pick out a DLP (65" 737). She has never been able to see 3D in theaters, but she was delighted to see it on a Panasonic 3D TV when we were in the store. So, now I have to find some glasses for her, and I see a 3D Blu-ray player in her future.

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post #19 of 98 Old 06-26-2010, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I saw the Sammy 7000 LED the day it was put on display in my local BB. The ghosting made the picture look awful but apparently the new firmware has alleviated the problem. I was in Sears a few hours ago and they had a UN55C7000 playing MvA. There was no ghosting but the motion blur was sickening. I was wearing my own Samsung shutter glasses and a sales guy asked if he could help. I said no (because I didn't think he would know how). There was a remote handy so I went into the user menu and turned off the motion blur. The resulting picture was near perfect. They're starting to get it right.

The 1021 firmware update worked well for MvA. But the previews on the Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs disc looked terrible. I'm about to sit down and watch Cloudy itself in about 15 minutes. I'm hoping the ghosting is confined to the previews only...I'd hate to think this is going to be a disc to disc issue.
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post #20 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 04:11 AM
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Where did you get your XpanDs,

Try Amazon.
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post #21 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Where did you get your XpanDs, James? I just helped my sister pick out a DLP (65" 737). She has never been able to see 3D in theaters, but she was delighted to see it on a Panasonic 3D TV when we were in the store. So, now I have to find some glasses for her, and I see a 3D Blu-ray player in her future.

Joseph, I have the same model. An excellent display at a very affordable price right now.

As pmalter0 pointed out, Amazon is a good source for XpanDs. However, Amazon sells them on behalf of several other merchants and prices fluctuate widely. You need to keep watching daily for the best deals. I've seen the price fluctuate from $106 to $132 per pair depending on which merchant has them in stock on any given day.

Be aware too that the XpanD x102s aren't perfect. Others on the board have commented on reliability issues (I have 3 pair and haven't had any such issues). There are other issues as well. The lenses on all three pair of mine have some non-uniformity to them that causes light to refract differently on different spots of the glasses. It's kind of like looking though an old plate-glass window that's slightly warped in spots. This causes certain parts of your view to appear slightly out of focus.

Unfortunately, if you want to go DLP-Link right now, XpanD is the only game in town. But I'll be anxious to do some comparisons when other CEMs enter the game.
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post #22 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 06:38 AM
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Joseph, I have the same model. An excellent display at a very affordable price right now.

As pmalter0 pointed out, Amazon is a good source for XpanDs. However, Amazon sells them on behalf of several other merchants and prices fluctuate widely. You need to keep watching daily for the best deals. I've seen the price fluctuate from $106 to $132 per pair depending on which merchant has them in stock on any given day.

Be aware too that the XpanD x102s aren't perfect. Others on the board have commented on reliability issues (I have 3 pair and haven't had any such issues). There are other issues as well. The lenses on all three pair of mine have some non-uniformity to them that causes light to refract differently on different spots of the glasses. It's kind of like looking though an old plate-glass window that's slightly warped in spots. This causes certain parts of your view to appear slightly out of focus.

Unfortunately, if you want to go DLP-Link right now, XpanD is the only game in town. But I'll be anxious to do some comparisons when other CEMs enter the game.

My sister had never seen a DLP rear projector before, so I wanted her to know what they looked like before she decided on a plasma or LCD. She was very impressed with what she saw at an Ultimate Electronics store. It was the last new unit they had in stock, and we got it for $1,050 on clearance - better than most online prices I found.

I haven't followed the shutter glasses threads closely at all. Isn't there a Mits kit that has a couple of pairs of glasses and the Mits adapter? Are those XpanDs?

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post #23 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 07:48 AM
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...I haven't followed the shutter glasses threads closely at all. Isn't there a Mits kit that has a couple of pairs of glasses and the Mits adapter? Are those XpanDs?

No one knows for sure which CEM is making the glasses for Mits. They look quite a bit like the Samsung glasses. The Mits glasses are IR triggered and require the emitter supplied with the kit. The XpanD x102s are DLP-Link triggered and require no emitter.

If your sister is patient, she might want to wait until the Mits kits are out and folks start posting reviews before making any decision on glasses. I'm afraid I'm not that patient.
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post #24 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 08:00 AM
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No one knows for sure which CEM is making the glasses for Mits. They look quite a bit like the Samsung glasses. The Mits glasses are IR triggered and require the emitter supplied with the kit. The XpanD x102s are DLP-Link triggered and require no emitter.

If your sister is patient, she might want to wait until the Mits kits are out and folks start posting reviews before making any decision on glasses. I'm afraid I'm not that patient.

I don't have an abundance of patience, either. She has more self control than I do.

I can try out my Samsung glasses with the Mits kit, if she ends up with one. Probably won't work, but I'll give it a shot.

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post #25 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I don't have an abundance of patience, either. She has more self control than I do.

I can try out my Samsung glasses with the Mits kit, if she ends up with one. Probably won't work, but I'll give it a shot.

Any problems with the Samsung plasma - ghosting etc.? You still have it so can I assume you're going to keep it at least until the 2011 models arrive?
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post #26 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 11:22 AM
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Any problems with the Samsung plasma - ghosting etc.? You still have it so can I assume you're going to keep it at least until the 2011 models arrive?

Yes, I've decided to keep it. It's not perfect, but I'm enjoying it too much to let it go. In my informal testing, the Panasonic bests the Samsung in black level and contrast, but in most other ways, I prefer the Samsung. Of course, the Samsung also does 2D > 3D conversion. If I used a 3D set only for the 3D content that's out there, I wouldn't have used it for more than a few hours. Conversion was what tipped the scale for me. (Admitted with a blush, because it turned me off initially. ) That said, I've found that I can't watch conversion every day, because it's so very funky when it fails (and it will fail - just a question of how often and how badly ). After a couple/three days, though, my 3D hunger overcomes all that and I watch an episode of Eureka, or Stargate Atlantis, with conversion switched on.

Ghosting is not nearly as bad as it was with the first demos I saw on the Samsung LCD displays - not by a long shot. To me, it looks about the same as the Panasonic in that regard - not a lot of difference. Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs had virtually no ghosting whatsoever. I could probably count the number of shots where I saw very minor ghosting on one hand. OTOH, MvsA's 3D effects were much better, IMO, and I really didn't like the Cloudy color scheme (though I'm virtually certain it contributed significantly to the lack of ghosting). I'll probably watch MvsA ten times for every time I watch Cloudy.

I'm sure sets (and glasses) will be much better in this regard in a year or two. Right now, I'm more or less resigned to seeing ghosting occasionally in some shots. Though I'd rather not, I'll live with it. I suspect better glasses will develop quickly if 3D can maintain anything close to its current level of momentum. That should be the biggest single factor in minimizing ghosting, especially with plasmas. That's my "educated" guess - take it for what it's worth.

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post #27 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SFMike View Post

Wow, it's great you find no crosstalk on your Sony HX800! Unfortunatly this is part of my frustration with the early batches of 3D TVs. I believe that your set has solved this problem but why can't Sony get it together to exhibit this on the sets they are trying to sell in their own Sony Style stores! These aren't some big box locations but their own showcases of their current technology. So now I've seen mediocre demos in 3 different Sony Style locations. My findings were the same as those recently reported on the HDTV Magazine site. http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/columns/...nwatchable.php

I had high hopes for the Sony as I am a Sony fan but so far they haven't been able to demo a watchable picture in their OWN STORES.

Regarding the Golden Gate Bridge scene from M v.s.A, were you able to view it on your HX800? I've never seen this scene free of ghosting and I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't an encoding problem on this transfer. It had the same level of ghosting on the Panny plasma as it did on the Samsung sets. Makes you wonder....Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs was encoded by Sony and I've heard only good things about thier discs played on any system.

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Don't know if the SS stores have production sets as of yet. When I visited one 7 weeks ago there was a ghosting problem on that set.

However, on the production hx 800 I believe they have cured the ghosting issue. I only notice it once or twice, on "Cloudy" but it was very faint. I have not see M vs. A on the Sony hx800.

I did demo M vs. A on the Panny some time ago and did NOT notice any ghosting but I did not go to the "Killer" bridge scene with the red suspension cables.

I sure hope that Samsung can fix the ghosting problem. What I don't understand is the comment that each firmware makes it a "little better".

Either it's fixed or it isn't.

Any comments would be appreciated to my last statement.

Looks like BB has just lowered the price on this model by $340.00
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post #28 of 98 Old 06-27-2010, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bontrager View Post

.

Don't know if the SS stores have production sets as of yet. When I visited one 7 weeks ago there was a ghosting problem on that set.

However, on the production hx 800 I believe they have cured the ghosting issue. I only notice it once or twice, on "Cloudy" but it was very faint. I have not see M vs. A on the Sony hx800.

I did demo M vs. A on the Panny some time ago and did NOT notice any ghosting but I did not go to the "Killer" bridge scene with the red suspension cables.

I sure hope that Samsung can fix the ghosting problem. What I don't understand is the comment that each firmware makes it a "little better".

Either it's fixed or it isn't.

Any comments would be appreciated to my last statement.

Looks like BB has just lowered the price on this model by $340.00

Ghosting has gotten better with firmware releases. It's not an either/or proposition. Think of watching without glasses at all as the worst case scenario for ghosting - both images are on the screen at the same time, all the time. When the TV and/or the glasses are not doing what they are supposed to, ghosting will occur. I don't know exactly what Samsung did in the firmware upgrades, but the degree and frequency of ghosting did decrease significantly in the demos I saw. The Golden Gate Bridge scene of MvsA has almost no ghosting on my Samsung plasma now. Before the update, I saw plenty of ghosting on similar sets. I have to look closely now to see it. High contrast scenes used to be really terrible. They aren't nearly as bad now.

Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs shows almost no ghosting, but they achieved that by flattening out the image dramatically. That is, contrasty subject matter is very limited, and I remember seeing only a few shots that had even a hint of ghosting. The other side of that coin is that the 3D effect (IMO) doesn't work as well as it does in MvsA, and the movie isn't as visually interesting. I imagine, until ghosting is improved (my guess - with better shutter glasses), we'll have to live with crosstalk, or reduce the overall contrast of the scenes. At this point (if I'm right), I'm not sure which of those is the preferable option.

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post #29 of 98 Old 06-28-2010, 05:42 AM
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I don`t think the starter of this thread cares anything about how what causes cross talk, how the ghosting was reduced, or how the fix worsened the image. They just fixed something they did wrong is the attitude of several here. Perfection hasnow been reached.

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post #30 of 98 Old 06-28-2010, 06:57 AM
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Joseph,
The major problem that Samusng had with both their LCDs and their Plasmas apparently used the same firmware responsible for synching the output from the emitter with actual frame update(refresh) on the TV screen and they were not occuring at the same time resulting in ghosting. They also might have reduced the contrast in high contrast frames to reduce potential cross talk in the glases themselves. The Golden Gate bridge scene may actually be caused by the creation of the MVC 3D blu-ray format when developing the +Delta content from the 2D format due to the high contrast in the scene.
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