Requirements for getting 3D output from HTPC to Samsung 3DTV? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 07-06-2010, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi all,

I've had an HTPC for a while now with the following specs:
Asus P5E-VM
Intel Core2 Duo E6850 3GHz
ATI Radeon HD3650 512DDR Silent
LG BD/HD-DVD
Windows 7 x64 Ultimate
ArcSoft Total Media Theatre 3.0 Platinum
SlySoft AnyDVD HD

This has been hooked up to a Philips LCD TV with a DVI-HDMI cable and been perfect for displaying HD content.

Now the Philips died and has been replaced with a Samsung 46" Series 7 3DTV and I was wondering how I can go about getting stereoscopic 3D on the TV?

I bought the ArcSoft 3D plugin recently released (and this works great on my main PC with an nVidia 3D Vision/Alienware monitor setup) but my understanding of stereoscopic 3D was that it requires 100Hz or higher in order to alternate left & right eye images in sync with the shutter?

The output from the PC to the TV is 1920x1080 @60Hz (and also has a small black border all the way round, but @59Hz I get overscan and the edge of the Windows display is clipped.

I've tried the various 3D modes on the TV (PC and PC DVI) and from TMT without any joy - the image is just black (with the latest Catalyst drivers installed) when I try to play back S3D trailers (Avatar, Shrek 3D).

I must be missing something obvious, but I don't know what it could be, anyone have a working 3D setup with a Windows HTPC and a Samsung 3DTV?
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post #2 of 26 Old 07-06-2010, 11:04 PM
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For true 3D (S3D) from an HTPC I think there are certain video cards that are required (as of right now it seems that only certain Nvidia cards are capable). Obviously SBS (side by side) can be done no problem but for the likes of 3D blu ray you'll need a compatible/capable video card. I think the least expensive card options are the nvidia 9800 or 240.

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post #3 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 06:32 AM
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The Arcsoft web site for the 3D plug-in lists only the following 4 3D output modes:
  • Regular Monitor – Select this mode of your display is not a 3D-ready display. This mode works with Red/Cyan anaglyph glasses.
  • PageFlip – Select this mode if your display is a Frame Sequential NVIDIA 3D Vision 120Hz (or higher) display, AMD Quad Buffer Stereo monitor, or HDMI 1.4 3DTV*. This type of display normally works with active (battery-powered) shutter glasses.
  • Line Interleaved – Select this mode if your display is a Micro Polarized LCD TV that supports Line Interleave 3D output. This type of 3D TV normally works with passive glasses.
  • Checkerboard – Select this mode if your display is a 3D-ready DLP TV that supports Checkerboard output. This type of TV works with active (battery-powered) shutter glasses.

None of these are consistent with the 3D signal formats listed as mandatory by the HDMI 1.4a stardard not the 3D formats supported by most 3DTVs. Specfically for each of the above supported formats:
- regular monitor (also regular TV) uses the old anaglyph glaases with colored lens
- page flip for use only with computer monitors that accept 120Hz input (not supported by 3DTVs via HDMI)
- line interleaved supported by a special type of 3D computer monitor (not supported by any current 3DTVs).
-checkerboard supported by 3D ready DLP rear projection TV (not supported by current generation of 3DTVs except for Mitsubishi DLPs)

Thus based only on the info from the Arcsoft web site it appears this software solution is aimed at using a computer monitor as the display and not 3DTVs (which are based on a different set of HD signal format standards). In order to support the 2010 models of 3DTVs, that are based on the HDMI 1.4a stardard as far as supporting input 3D signal formats, the HTPC would need to support one or more of the "mandatory" 3D formats and for full 1080p resolution that means it would need to support the "Frame Packing" signal format. That would mean that both the video player software and video card hardware/software would need to support the frame packing format and it doesn't appear the Arcsoft software is capble of that. Nvidia has announed (March 2010) software (called "3DTV Play") that allows certain Geforce-based graphics cards to support an output mode compatible with 3DTVs. It appears the Nvidia software solution (that is teamed up with Panasonic) is more focused on PC gaming than using the HTPC for playing Blu-ray 3D. HERE is a Youtube video with Panasonic and Nvidia representatives talking about it.

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post #4 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 08:28 AM
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Ron may very well be on the money, I was not aware that the Arcsoft software was so limited (not even SBS mode?). For those that want to try gaming in 3D via a PC you can get a 30 day trial of the iZ3D driver and it will do SBS which is compatible with the new 3Dtv's.

However if the OP cannot even get downloaded sbs trailers to play via his htpc then obviously something else is going on as even wmp or vlc can play those files properly to a 3Dtv, I do it all the time as do many others.

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post #5 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 08:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Aha, thanks guys for the info

I'm not overly concerned right now about the 3D content as there's not a wealth of content right now anyway, but I believed it would be a fairly common expectation to have HTPCs hooked up for BD3D playback early on.

I'll keep an eye out for news on this over the next few months I guess.

Thanks again!
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post #6 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 09:15 AM
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Download Stereoscopic Player, and try your trailers with it. It should work just fine, as it'll output SbS.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #7 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 02:11 PM
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For 3D playback using TMT3 on a Samsung 3DTV:

You will need a GPU ATI Series 4000 or higher or NVIDIA 9800 or higher. You need to upgrade.

-Set output to Checkerboard in TMT3 settings.
-Rename HDMI input that computer is using on 3DTV to PC.
-Start 3D video in fullscreen (remember output is 1920x1080@60Hz.
-Hit 3D button on Samsung remote.
-Choose checkerboard option and enjoy 3D!
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post #8 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

- page flip for use only with computer monitors that accept 120Hz input (not supported by 3DTVs via HDMI)
- line interleaved supported by a special type of 3D computer monitor (not supported by any current 3DTVs).
-checkerboard supported by 3D ready DLP rear projection TV (not supported by current generation of 3DTVs except for Mitsubishi DLPs)

Not supported by 3DTV's?

Samsung PS50C7000 manual, supported 3D input formats:
Side by Side, Displays two images next to each other.

Top & Bottom, Displays one image above another.

Line by Line, Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in rows.

Vertical Stripe, Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in columns.

Checker Board, Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in pixels.

Frequency, Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in frames.
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post #9 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 08:15 PM
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I just downloaded PowerDVD 10 (trial version), which is supposed to support 3D TVs. I have a Samsung 63" 3D plasma. I set PDVD to output to a 3D TV, and it looked as though the signal was being sent, but the glasses never synced. I have a report/question in with Cyberlink, and I'll report back if I get it working.

I have a Core i5 750 with an ATI 4850 (soon to be upgraded to a 5770). The specs for software 3D Blu-ray playback specify only an ATI 2000 series (can't recall the exact model - 2650, I think) and a modest dual core. Hardware accelerated 3D Blu-ray playback requires a newer nVidia card, or the new Intel integrated graphics chipset.

Details are on the Cyberlink home page. And here's a test for your system to determine if it can play back 3D Blu-ray.


EDIT: D'oh! I just realized my computer is going through a 1.3 HDMI switch and a 1.3 HDMI receiver. That will never work. The computer will have to go directly into one of the plasma's HDMI inputs. I feel foolish. On the plus side, when I get around to running it direct, it might actually work.

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post #10 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 08:44 PM
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A HDMI "1.3" switch should handle all HDMI 1.4a formats such as 1080i SbS or 720p Tnb etc since they are contained inside of standard HD resolutions. Sevearl users have reported that they have very inexpensive models that will also will handle the 3D 1080p/24 packed frame format from 3D BR disk players since all the do is switch the wire connections without regard to the resolution of the cotent being carried on the wires.
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post #11 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 09:26 PM
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You need to use checkerboard as mentioned in my post. Neither TMT or PDVD will work with the framepacked formats until NVIDIA 3DTV Play is released.
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post #12 of 26 Old 07-07-2010, 10:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried the Stereoscopic Player and as suggested it behaves the same as TMT3 (which makes me think it's a graphics card or driver issue, as the whole display shifts the images out of sync quite severely).

I also tried @50Hz for kicks (all that happened was I lost the "other" options for 3D on the TV such as interlaced, checkerboard, etc.).

I read that thread over on the ArcSoft forum that mentioned checkerboard at both ends (and ending up with a half-resolution image due to the workaround) but it doesn't help... I guess if the card is only a 3000 series then it's doomed to failure anyway
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post #13 of 26 Old 07-08-2010, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Update - Stereoscopic Player IS able to play the Shrek 3D trailer back in 3D now... I just had to switch the playback mode to software page flipping.

The audio lags a bit so I think my CPU is struggling to keep up with this new overhead, but if there's a graphics card able to provide hardware acceleration for 3DTV output at a later date then this should be no problem (or I can just beef up the processor).

Thanks all for the education with S3D vs 3DTV, I naïvely assumed them to be pretty much identical
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post #14 of 26 Old 07-08-2010, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Snrub View Post

Update - Stereoscopic Player IS able to play the Shrek 3D trailer back in 3D now... I just had to switch the playback mode to software page flipping.

The audio lags a bit so I think my CPU is struggling to keep up with this new overhead, but if there's a graphics card able to provide hardware acceleration for 3DTV output at a later date then this should be no problem (or I can just beef up the processor).

Thanks all for the education with S3D vs 3DTV, I naïvely assumed them to be pretty much identical

Page flip worked for the Samsung 3DTV? What mode did you set the TV for 3D?
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post #15 of 26 Old 07-08-2010, 04:26 PM
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3D blu ray + PowerDVD 10 ultra + Radeon 4890(10.6 drivers) + 3D AVR + 3Dtv = No dice!

* and I am even using all high speed HDMI cables .

When inserting a 3D blu ray PowerDVD instantly turns off its 3D mode, at least for me, 2D blu ray playback works perfect with the same system.

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post #16 of 26 Old 07-08-2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

3D blu ray + PowerDVD 10 ultra + Radeon 4890(10.6 drivers) + 3D AVR + 3Dtv = No dice!

* and I am even using all high speed HDMI cables .

When inserting a 3D blu ray PowerDVD instantly turns off its 3D mode, at least for me, 2D blu ray playback works perfect with the same system.

Jason

For full 1080P 3D, I don't think ATI cards work correctly yet. Gotta be a driver issue.

Does your display accept checkerboard?

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #17 of 26 Old 07-08-2010, 04:48 PM
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Yeah I don't think they (ati) do either, yet some people are claiming otherwise..?

Have not tried checkerboard (samsung 50c7000) so not sure.

Not too concerned if it works or not since I also have a Samsung 3D bd player (c6900) but it would still be cool to get it all working .

Jason
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post #18 of 26 Old 07-08-2010, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

Page flip worked for the Samsung 3DTV? What mode did you set the TV for 3D?

HDMI 1 set to PC and resolution/frequency set to 1920x1080 @60Hz to make all 6 3D modes available*, then selected Frequency mode on the TV.

Side by Side : "Displays 2 images next to each other"

Top & Bottom : "Displays one image above another"

Line by Line : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in rows"

Vertical Stripe : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in columns"

Checker Board : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in pixels"

Frequency : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in frames"


* If I set HDMI 1 to PC DVI or use 50Hz from the PC then only the first 3 3D options are available
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post #19 of 26 Old 07-09-2010, 08:34 AM
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Since the last 3 formats are not HDMI 1.4a formats very few 3D TVs have them, except for DLP 3D ready TVs which all accept checkerboard.
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post #20 of 26 Old 07-09-2010, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

You need to use checkerboard as mentioned in my post. Neither TMT or PDVD will work with the framepacked formats until NVIDIA 3DTV Play is released.

Exactly. Tired of these hacks. Want proper Frame Sequential, HDMI 1.4 support off the nvidia cards. C'mon nvidia...
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post #21 of 26 Old 07-09-2010, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Snrub View Post

HDMI 1 set to PC and resolution/frequency set to 1920x1080 @60Hz to make all 6 3D modes available*, then selected Frequency mode on the TV.

Side by Side : "Displays 2 images next to each other"

Top & Bottom : "Displays one image above another"

Line by Line : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in rows"

Vertical Stripe : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in columns"

Checker Board : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in pixels"

Frequency : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in frames"


* If I set HDMI 1 to PC DVI or use 50Hz from the PC then only the first 3 3D options are available

You're talking about the new Samsung 3D TVs, right? Not older plasmas or DLPs?

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post #22 of 26 Old 07-09-2010, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Snrub View Post

HDMI 1 set to PC and resolution/frequency set to 1920x1080 @60Hz to make all 6 3D modes available*, then selected Frequency mode on the TV.

Side by Side : "Displays 2 images next to each other"

Top & Bottom : "Displays one image above another"

Line by Line : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in rows"

Vertical Stripe : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in columns"

Checker Board : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in pixels"

Frequency : "Displays the images for the left and right eye alternately in frames"


* If I set HDMI 1 to PC DVI or use 50Hz from the PC then only the first 3 3D options are available

OK, this works, although I don't know how you got to the "Frequency Mode" setting.

Here are some more detailed instructions on how to set up the Samsung plasmas to display 3D from 3D Blu-ray disc (or disc image) from a computer. My system is a Core i5, Radeon 4850:

I have the PowerDVD 10 trial that supports 3D Blu-ray discs:

1. Click on the "3D" button at the bottom of the PDVD screen.
2. Select "Enable BD 3D Playback"
3. Selet "3D-Ready HDTV" under "Choose 3D Display"
4. Select "Swap Left and Right Eye Views" (necessary for my Samsung 63" C8000 plasma - otherwise left/right images are reversed)

In the Samsung C8000 menu:

1. Hit "menu" and go to "Source List" and select "Edit Name"
2. Go to HDMI1/DVI and hit select
3. Scroll down to "PC" and hit select

At this point, the screen will flash and the display is set to PC level (0-255) instread of video level (16-135). This means that the black level is affected dramatically. Blacks become gray, instead of true black. (Not a good thing.)

On the Samsung:

1. Select "menu" and then "Picture"
2. Scroll to "3D" and select it
3. Hit the up arrow and all the 3D modes should now be available
4. Select "Checkerboard" (selection 6 on the Samsung)

The display is now in checkerboard format and 3D should display normally when you start a 3D Blu-ray disc from a Blu-ray drive (or a 3D Blu-ray iso image). The problem now is to get my devices to output the same video level, which will require some juggling of the devices and inputs of my switch. It is working, though, and the results look pretty good. Until I get he video levels issues sorted out, I won't have a fully working solution, but it's not far off.

What I really want, of course, is full support for the native framepacked 3D Blu-ray images directly from the computer to the dispaly.

Edit: Forgot to mention that to set your PC to output PC level, you have to go into Catalyst Control Center (if, like me, you have an ATI card). There you have to set he "Pixel Format." To do that, open CCC. Click on "Graphics in the upper left corner. Select "Desktops and Displays." Right click on the TV in the lower left and selet "Configure." Select the "Pixel Format" tab and then choose "RGB 4 4 4 Pixel Format PC Standard." This should restore your black level to normal. Note that video levels can be a reall bear to sort out, so write down what you do so you can go in and change it back.

Second edit:

My attempts to get good black levels, so far, have not worked well. There's a fair amount of work to do to get the levels to match and to get the Samsung adjusted. However, the picture quality is pretty good. As I suspected, the hit the movie takes by going into checkerboard format is not nearly as big as you might suspect it would be. If I can get the the level issue resolved, I can be happy with this solution until they bring us full 3D Blu-ray playback on the PC. It does work, and some people may not even experience the black level issue. It depends on how your system is configured.

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post #23 of 26 Old 07-09-2010, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

You're talking about the new Samsung 3D TVs, right? Not older plasmas or DLPs?

He's talking about the new 3DTVs. The old DLP only supports checkerboard and does not have the 3D format menu.

He is also talking about page-flipping output from Stereoscopic Player and not TMT or PDVD. "Frequency" or page-flipping is better than checkerboard if the source content is 30hz or less. In this mode the first frame is left image and the next is right. This means 30 frames of full 1080p are sent per eye and then scaled to 120Hz within the TV.
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post #24 of 26 Old 07-09-2010, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

He's talking about the new 3DTVs. The old DLP only supports checkerboard and does not have the 3D format menu.

He is also talking about page-flipping output from Stereoscopic Player and not TMT or PDVD. "Frequency" or page-flipping is better than checkerboard if the source content is 30hz or less. In this mode the first frame is left image and the next is right. This means 30 frames of full 1080p are sent per eye and then scaled to 120Hz within the TV.

Well, I guess I know what I'm doing tomorrow.

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post #25 of 26 Old 07-11-2010, 02:24 PM
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How's the pulldown judder when doing the checkerboard workaround? I know as soon as you change the refresh rate from 60hz you lose all the modes other than 2D->3D, SBS, and TnB on a Samsung, but framepacked output is supposed to be at 24fps, isn't it?
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post #26 of 26 Old 07-11-2010, 05:43 PM
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The new 3d packed fame that the new 3D TVs accept is described in the following link:

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/
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