Optimum Screen Gain for 3D Projector - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 10-05-2010, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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For a full light controlled environment.

What do you guys think? 3D will certainly cut down on the brightness of the picture, so perhaps a 1.8 would be a good choice?

This will be for the JVC RS40.
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post #2 of 26 Old 10-06-2010, 06:11 AM
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There are a lot of factors you need to consider in selecting the right screen. Below are some the important factors that need to be considered in addition to the lumen output of the projector:
  • what is the desired screen size and aspect ratio?
  • is the room fully light controlled or do you need to deal with windows, room lights, etc.?
  • are the walls and ceiling painted a dark color or light?
  • what are the room dimensions, seating distance and max. viewing angle from the centerline of the sceen?
  • does the projector need to be mounted up near the ceiling or can it be mounted just above eye level?
  • do you need a drop down screen (either electric or manual pull down) or will you be using a fixed frame screen?

I'm on the preorder list for the RS40 and I plan on using it with my existing 120", 16x9 aspect ratio, 1.4 gain tab tensioned electric drop down screen (that I'm currently using with an Epson 6500UB projector which has about 600 lumens of output if fully calibrated mode and up to nearly 2000 lumens in uncalibrated dynamic mode). The JVCs are rated at 1300 lumens in an more-or-less uncalibrated high brightness mode intended to give some extra lumens for 3D viewing and even in this bright mode the result will be the equivalent of about 250 lumens when the light loss due to the <50% duty cycle plus the transmission loss of the LCD shutter eyeglasses are accounted for.

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post #3 of 26 Old 10-06-2010, 06:43 AM
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Only one screen for me - High power 2.8 gain. If you can accommodate one this is a very good solution.
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post #4 of 26 Old 10-06-2010, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

There are a lot of factors you need to consider in selecting the right screen. Below are some the important factors that need to be considered in addition to the lumen output of the projector:
  • what is the desired screen size and aspect ratio?
106" or 120", 16:9
  • is the room fully light controlled or do you need to deal with windows, room lights, etc.?
Fully light controlled.
  • are the walls and ceiling painted a dark color or light?
Walls dark, ceiling light. Dark ceiling didn't pass the WAF.
  • what are the room dimensions, seating distance and max. viewing angle from the centerline of the sceen?
Viewing angle is directly in front of the screen, 14x15, seating at about 12'.
  • does the projector need to be mounted up near the ceiling or can it be mounted just above eye level?
I can do either. Not sure which is ideal.
  • do you need a drop down screen (either electric or manual pull down) or will you be using a fixed frame screen?
Fixed frame.

I'm on the preorder list for the RS40 and I plan on using it with my existing 120", 16x9 aspect ratio, 1.4 gain tab tensioned electric drop down screen (that I'm currently using with an Epson 6500UB projector which has about 600 lumens of output if fully calibrated mode and up to nearly 2000 lumens in uncalibrated dynamic mode). The JVCs are rated at 1300 lumens in an more-or-less uncalibrated high brightness mode intended to give some extra lumens for 3D viewing and even in this bright mode the result will be the equivalent of about 250 lumens when the light loss due to the <50% duty cycle plus the transmission loss of the LCD shutter eyeglasses are accounted for.

Please see answers in bold.
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post #5 of 26 Old 10-06-2010, 06:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Only one screen for me - High power 2.8 gain. If you can accommodate one this is a very good solution.

How do the HP screen affects black levels/contrast ratios? Doesn't wash the picture out? And would it be too bright for a batcave?
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post #6 of 26 Old 10-06-2010, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTonik View Post

How do the HP screen affects black levels/contrast ratios? Doesn't wash the picture out? And would it be too bright for a batcave?

Since it appears your seating location and projector mounting flexibiltiy would probably work with a DaLite HP, I would probably go that route, as it's additional gain (either 2.4 or 2.8) would be especailly useful for 3D vewing. Also remember these are peak on-axis gains and the HP gain drops off quickly as your viewing location moves toward the sides of the room. Calibrated D65 mode on the JVC in high lamp mode is probably something around 900 to 950 lumens and that will be your starting point for 2D viewing. If you find it too bright for 2D viewing with the HP, then you can always switch the projector to low lamp mode then use the manual iris to stop down the lens a little to reduce the overall lumens output from the projector. Remember that just stopping down the lens by one f-stop will cut the lumens in half would have the same effect (on overall image brightness, black levels and white levels) as cutting the screen gain in half.

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post #7 of 26 Old 10-06-2010, 10:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Only thing that worries me about the High Power screen is what it will do to blacks. I'm a big black fan, and if an HP screen would turn my blacks grey, I dont think its the best choice for me, which is why I was leaning towards the 1.8. What do you think?
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post #8 of 26 Old 10-06-2010, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTonik View Post

Only thing that worries me about the High Power screen is what it will do to blacks. I'm a big black fan, and if an HP screen would turn my blacks grey, I dont think its the best choice for me, which is why I was leaning towards the 1.8. What do you think?

Don't worry about "blacks" on the HP screen. I bought a "grey" screen for my digital projector (Epson 9500) and now only use it with the HP. The HP effortlessly does a full fade to total black with my gamma corrected CRT projector - it doesn't get any better than that!
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post #9 of 26 Old 10-24-2010, 02:42 PM
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I have the same "problem" than TheTonik for my future theater room with a JVC RS40. It will not be a bat cave. My dilemma is to choose between a high gain screen and an AT screen. The first one will be smaller as I have to put my speakers on the sides, the speakers will be intrusive and the central speaker will not be correctly located. The second one will be bigger, will allow a good located sound but maybe will not be sufficient bright for 3D display (in particular for a 133" diagonal).
So I try to answer same questions of Ron Jones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

  • what is the desired screen size and aspect ratio?
16:9 ratio, 120" for high gain screen, 133" for AT screen
  • is the room fully light controlled or do you need to deal with windows, room lights, etc.?
fully light controlled but not a bat cave
  • are the walls and ceiling painted a dark color or light?
walls and ceiling more or less dark but not black (except near screen)
  • what are the room dimensions, seating distance and max. viewing angle from the centerline of the sceen?
room 26.25'x11.5', seating distance 15', front of screen
  • does the projector need to be mounted up near the ceiling or can it be mounted just above eye level?
projector near the ceiling
  • do you need a drop down screen (either electric or manual pull down) or will you be using a fixed frame screen?
prefer a fixed frame screen

At my place, what will be your choice? an AT unity gain or a high gain screen? because i didn't find one who does both
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post #10 of 26 Old 10-24-2010, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lebloganthrope View Post

I have the same "problem" than TheTonik for my future theater room with a JVC RS40. It will not be a bat cave. My dilemma is to choose between a high gain screen and an AT screen. The first one will be smaller as I have to put my speakers on the sides, the speakers will be intrusive and the central speaker will not be correctly located. The second one will be bigger, will allow a good located sound but maybe will not be sufficient bright for 3D display (in particular for a 133" diagonal).
So I try to answer same questions of Ron Jones



At my place, what will be your choice? an AT unity gain or a high gain screen? because i didn't find one who does both

A 133" AT 1.78 AR unity gain screen when used with the RS40 in high lamp mode with the manual iris fully open and calibrated for D65 (producing approx. 1000 lumens) will give you about 19 ft. lamberts off of the screen. This is a good value for 2D viewing and will provide some real margin to accommodate the bulb dimming that naturally occurs during the first few hundreds hours of use. Even with these values you will need a room with good light control.

However, it is a different story for 3D mode on the RS40 which is rated at 1300 lumens with a new bulb, but has 80+% light loss due to duty cycle and light loss thru the 3D glasses. You will start off with nearly 25 ft. lamberts peak on the screen but after the unavoidable light losses you end up with less than 5 ft. lamberts effective (reaching your eyes). While this may be acceptable for viewing in a totally dark room (but it will be dim), but as the bulb gets a few hundred hours on it you may find it unacceptable. Short of going with the Dalite High Power, you could consider a screen with a gain of 1.3 to 1.5 and keeping the screen size down to 120" (which will increase the 3D mode brightness to your eyes to approx. 7 to 8 ft. lamberts with a new bulb).

Also remember that max. brightness is acheived with the zoom lens in its widest angle position. For the RS40 when used with a 120" screen (diagonal size with 1.78 aspect ratio) that means having a lens-to-screen throw distance of around 12 to 13 ft. will be ideal for getting the max. lumens from the projector.

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post #11 of 26 Old 10-25-2010, 12:11 AM
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thank you Ron for your answer. So for you, you would not choose an AT screen?

As it will be my first HT, I don't really know how important can be a good sound location behind the screen. The AT screen with the highest gain I found is the Seymour center stage (gain 1.16). But as I doubt it will be sufficient for 3D display, I think more and more about a high gain screen.
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post #12 of 26 Old 10-25-2010, 12:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lebloganthrope View Post

thank you Ron for your answer. So for you, you would not choose an AT screen?

As it will be my first HT, I don't really know how important can be a good sound location behind the screen. The AT screen with the highest gain I found is the Seymour center stage (gain 1.16). But as I doubt it will be sufficient for 3D display, I think more and more about a high gain screen.

I'd rather have my HP than an AT screen, but that's altogether a matter of preference. If 3D is important to you, the HP's high gain and overall ability to produce a stellar image might make it a better choice. As Ron points out, the lamp is going to age, and when it does, the high gain is going to be that much more important - unless you don't mind paying for a new lamp every 500 hours or so.

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post #13 of 26 Old 10-26-2010, 12:00 AM
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There are a few more considerations. I think with a 3D projector solution high gain screen is important. Even in a bat cave (which I have) I appreciate high gain. The HP is a good budget solution, but ceiling mounting your projector is much more convient. I had mine table mounted for a while and worried constantly about drunks like me spilling their beers onto it. This brings me to the better high gain screen for ceiling mounts, the Vutec Silverstar. It is rated 6 gain, but really is more like 3. I love it, even in my bat cave. It is much more expensive, but you can consider this is a long term investment. You will buy many projectors, and probably just one screen. Now, considering it is a long term investment you need to think about the "Other" 3D display method, passive projection. The LG 3D projector will be using this method. All cinema 3D systems use this method. This requires a special passive polarization screen. On the other hand glasses are almost (if not) free. If you have the budget I would look into the new Silverstar 3D-P screen. If you don't, you can make your own screen frame with 3D passive material. What I found to be the best reviewed material is from a company called Harkness-Hall. I ended up buying this material myself, but haven't bothered to replace my silverstar material since I am waiting for the projector to go with it. It has a gain of 2.8. It should work fine for either type of 3D projection. They also make full screens if you don't want to frame it yourself. They also bring another option to you. They have a micro-perf version of this material so you can have your 3D screen and rear mounted speakers. Now, myself I really don't have a problem with my speakers outside the screen area, but that is another option for you.
Warren.
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post #14 of 26 Old 10-26-2010, 02:36 AM
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thanks both for your opinions.
I will not go with passive solution, even if it may be cheaper.
So I have to found a good high gain white screen, but not too high to avoid hot spots... I was thinking about a 1.8 gain which can be more uniformly distributed with angle viewing than higher gain (HP 2.8 allows only 20° for example)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lebloganthrope View Post

thanks both for your opinions.
I will not go with passive solution, even if it may be cheaper.
So I have to found a good high gain white screen, but not too high to avoid hot spots... I was thinking about a 1.8 gain which can be more uniformly distributed with angle viewing than higher gain (HP 2.8 allows only 20° for example)

Keep in mind that you are going to lose about 80% of the light when in 3D mode due to the glasses.

IMO, 1.8 isn't going to cut it.
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post #16 of 26 Old 10-26-2010, 10:43 AM
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The Silverstar doesn't hotspot. It has some shimmer on really bright scenes, but that won't be an issue, and doesn't bother me in any case. And passive isn't cheaper, it is more expensive The LG projector is probably 10k. It just has many advantages, like cheap very-light glasses you don't need to worry about guests/kids breaking, better brightness, 120 Hz possible in stereo, no flashing glasses. On the other hand it can have worse ghosting.
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post #17 of 26 Old 10-26-2010, 11:06 AM
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Not to be a contrarian, but the HP doesn't hotspot and it doesn't glisten/shimmer at all. It also has very good color and brightness uniformity, and it's significantly cheaper than the Silverstar. Although it isn't for many, I know the sheen on the Silverstar would have been an issue for me. I tested samples of both materials and the difference was obvious to me. IMO, the HP outperformed both the Silverstar and the Stewart Firehawk I had in my home theater before I got my HP. Before you dismiss an HP, look closely at your home theater setup and see if you might be able to rearrange things to get good gain from it. I had to do that, but it was worth the time. You may find that the HP won't suit your situation, or that your seating doesn't make it a good fit, but at least you will have done your due diligence. It could save you some serious coin.


You should also check out FLBoy's screen gain calculator here on AVS. It should give you a good idea of how much gain you can expect from different screen materials.
I agree with Lee. You are going to need all the light you can for 3D, and an aging projector lamp may render the image unacceptable to you very quickly with anything but a high gain screen.

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post #18 of 26 Old 10-26-2010, 12:04 PM
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What do you guys think about the Black Diamond 2 for passive 3D projection (circular polarized using 2 DLPs)?

I'm going the dual projector route and am looking for the best screen material.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

What do you guys think about the Black Diamond 2 for passive 3D projection (circular polarized using 2 DLPs)?

I'm going the dual projector route and am looking for the best screen material.

Quote:


While most screens are white or a dull shade of gray, SI Screens has taken their Black Diamond II screen material to 11 and made it just a shade or two north of absolute black.

Quote:


The Black Diamond II material works with any projector and features a new higher gain of 1.4, which is up from .8 with the previous Black Diamond material.

http://hometheaterreview.com/si-scre...reen-reviewed/

I don't see that working very well with any 3D application - active or passive. There is so much light loss due to the glasses. Also appears to be very expensive.
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post #20 of 26 Old 10-26-2010, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

http://hometheaterreview.com/si-scre...reen-reviewed/

I don't see that working very well with any 3D application - active or passive. There is so much light loss due to the glasses. Also appears to be very expensive.

Yeah I'm going to using dual DLP projectors so that should help with the light, not to mention it's going to be a man-cave (light completely off).

The review you linked to gave the BD2 an absolutely glowing review, especially in a room with no lights. Price isn't a problem since the size I want 120-130" is around $2.5-3k according to what I've been able to find. I don't know any 3D material that's significantly cheaper than that.

Any recommendations on bright DLP home theater projectors with lens shift?
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Peter, you need a passive polarization screen. The harkness spectral 3D was the best reviewed material I have found for that, but I am guessing the new Vutec Silverstar 3D-P should be a good contender.

I got the harkness material to use in my existing frame for $350 or so.
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post #22 of 26 Old 10-27-2010, 06:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

Yeah I'm going to using dual DLP projectors so that should help with the light, not to mention it's going to be a man-cave (light completely off).

The review you linked to gave the BD2 an absolutely glowing review, especially in a room with no lights. Price isn't a problem since the size I want 120-130" is around $2.5-3k according to what I've been able to find. I don't know any 3D material that's significantly cheaper than that.

Any recommendations on bright DLP home theater projectors with lens shift?

Black screens are used to get maximum contrast ratio - something that may not be desireable for 3D applications. For 2D, yes, I can see their value because it is the CR that creates the illusion of depth. But with 3D you are creating the depth by the use of the dual offset images and the glasses.

And I do understand that by using dual PJs, you will be gaining an increase in the brightness of the images, greater than a single PJ. But will it be enough taking into account the light loss by the glasses and your desired screen size? The bigger the screen, the greater the drop in light reflected back to the viewer.
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post #23 of 26 Old 10-27-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Peter, you need a passive polarization screen. The harkness spectral 3D was the best reviewed material I have found for that, but I am guessing the new Vutec Silverstar 3D-P should be a good contender.

I got the harkness material to use in my existing frame for $350 or so.

Can you link me to information/reviews on those screens? The BD2 maintains polarization according to Screen Innovations.
Quote:
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Black screens are used to get maximum contrast ratio - something that may not be desireable for 3D applications. For 2D, yes, I can see their value because it is the CR that creates the illusion of depth. But with 3D you are creating the depth by the use of the dual offset images and the glasses.

And I do understand that by using dual PJs, you will be gaining an increase in the brightness of the images, greater than a single PJ. But will it be enough taking into account the light loss by the glasses and your desired screen size? The bigger the screen, the greater the drop in light reflected back to the viewer.

Yeah I want to have an amazing 2D screen for when I'm not viewing 3D (which is still going to be a majority for at least the next year) not to mention it will be my computer monitor so that will always be 2D.
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Harkness site:
http://www.harkness-screens.com/digi...ectral240.html
Reviews:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2719

quote that sold me:
"Pros: The material is very unsensitive to wrinkles, and easy to handle. It also is not so sensitive to rubbing as others are.
Cons: not foldable, not washable
Ghosting:
This screen had absolutely zero ghosting. Seen from front, and reached the ghosting shown in the image above at an angle of 45°. The image quality is very high, the image is very very soft and also very comfortable for the eyes even at reduced distances."
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Peter:

Which DLP projector(s) will you use?
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post #26 of 26 Old 10-27-2010, 04:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wnielsenbb View Post

Harkness site:
http://www.harkness-screens.com/digi...ectral240.html
Reviews:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2719

quote that sold me:
"Pros: The material is very unsensitive to wrinkles, and easy to handle. It also is not so sensitive to rubbing as others are.
Cons: not foldable, not washable
Ghosting:
This screen had absolutely zero ghosting. Seen from front, and reached the ghosting shown in the image above at an angle of 45°. The image quality is very high, the image is very very soft and also very comfortable for the eyes even at reduced distances."

Thanks for the links. I will look into this as a possible option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Peter:

Which DLP projector(s) will you use?

I have no clue. I'm open to suggestions. I'd prefer to keep the cost around $4k per projector if possible. If DLP can do native 24Hz too then that would be a nice bonus but I'll deal with 3:2 pulldown if it's unavoidable.

I haven't looked into projectors at all. AFAIK it just needs to have lens shift for it to work for this 3D setup.
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