How much crosstalk (ghosting) has your 3D TV? Test it! - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 163 Old 05-24-2011, 04:44 PM
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Tried one of those, TERRIBLE.
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post #92 of 163 Old 05-24-2011, 09:16 PM
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I have a Sanyo Xacti Sh1 that can shoot at over 600fps, so I captured some really interesting images on how DLP screens work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTnfqOw_BkE

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A movie with good 3D does not necessarily equal a good 3D movie!

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post #93 of 163 Old 06-15-2011, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PassedPawn View Post

3D TV model: Samsung PN59D6500 59" Plasma
3D glasses model: Samsung 3D Active Glasses 2011 (bluetooth?)

Left eye open/right closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> 1
Left eye open/right closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> 10
Right eye open/left closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> 1
Right eye open/left closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> 10

is this good or bad for crosstalk?
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post #94 of 163 Old 06-15-2011, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audionewer View Post

is this good or bad for crosstalk?

Not good. By my standards, 15 would be ok, 20+ would be good.

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post #95 of 163 Old 06-16-2011, 11:47 AM
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Yet CNET regards the samsung plasma as one of the best for crosstalk, better than the VT30.
It's possible the test in this crosstalk thread isn't the whole story. (or that CNET is off its the rocker)

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-34468622.html

Quote:
3D: The PND8000 is a very good 3D performer. It outperformed the two Panasonics at reducing crosstalk; only the UND8000 LED (which replaced the Vizio in our lineup for 3D tests) was better.
(pnd8000 has the same panel and video processing as the pnd6500 so crosstalk should be the same).
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post #96 of 163 Old 06-16-2011, 12:40 PM
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Maybe the TV is one of those that struggles in side by side mode?

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A movie with good 3D does not necessarily equal a good 3D movie!

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post #97 of 163 Old 06-16-2011, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Yet CNET regards the samsung plasma as one of the best for crosstalk, better than the VT30.
It's possible the test in this crosstalk thread isn't the whole story. (or that CNET is off its the rocker)

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-34468622.html



(pnd8000 has the same panel and video processing as the pnd6500 so crosstalk should be the same).

It has been often reported that CNET is not unbiased reporting, and that they often give their best reviews to the Samsung brand, regardless of the truth.

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post #98 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 07:04 AM
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I've heard it was panasonic they MAY be biased to. anyways, I prefer to believe they are unbiased and that's their actual observations.

I think we need more crosstalk tests of this panel in this thread. one test by one reader isn't a big enough sample to make conclusions.
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post #99 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 09:33 AM
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Vizio E3D420VX(2011 42" ccfl lcd) does a fairly good job, passive really contributes to lower cross talk, not perfect but good.

Using included glasses with the thick sides.

LT:1
LB:~20 (readable 23ish)

RT:1
RB:~30 (readable 32ish)

I'd like to see others who have visio's post, I found it very hard to judge the exact number where it fades off I gave a rounded down estimate in addition to the last number I can read without squinting. While the LB fades evenly, the RB does a excellent job of eliminating all colors but blue. This explains why when I notice slight cross talk it has a blue tint, bright blue objects tend to cause the most problems, that said there is hardly any cross talk except with extreme bright and dark contrast.
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post #100 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 11:54 AM
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What's keeping Mitsubishi from releasing a HMDI 1.4 compatible DLP 3DTV? I'd jump on that in a second.
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post #101 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

What's keeping Mitsubishi from releasing a HMDI 1.4 compatible DLP 3DTV? I'd jump on that in a second.

Their TVs are 1.4 compatible. They accept all formats supported by 1.4, and display them with the checkerboard format.

I have a 65" Mitsubishi, and it is the best 3D I've seen.

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post #102 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 03:55 PM
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No they don't accept the framepacked 1080p format specified in HDMI 1.4 (without an additional converter). There's no way to get 3D in full HD on their sets.
They need to build a DLP TV that displays 3d using full frame sequential 120hz like modern LCD and Plasma active 3DTVs. It's totally within the possibilities of the tech, they just need to make it.
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post #103 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

No they don't accept the framepacked 1080p format specified in HDMI 1.4 (without an additional converter). There's no way to get 3D in full HD on their sets.

They do accept it without the converter, since the 2010 model year. And there's no such thing as "full HD", it is a marketing term.

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post #104 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

They need to build a DLP TV that displays 3d using sequential 120hz like modern LCD and Plasma active 3DTVs. It's totally within the possibilities of the tech, they just need to make it.

Why? The current tech is perfectly acceptable, (and sales are up).

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post #105 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 05:45 PM
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u guys are telling me that this year's plasma 3dtv are not full 3d hd.
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post #106 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 06:49 PM
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No, we're talking about DLP TVs.

Auger, checkerboard is half resolution, that's why..

They could make it display full frame sequential for bluray 1080p24 framepacked and still support checkerboard for gamers...

and Full HD is a marketing term for 1080p, which checkerboard is not.

but thanks, I didn't realize the current models accepted framepacked, that's nice to see. It's still displayed as half rez checkerboard though...
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post #107 of 163 Old 06-17-2011, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

No, we're talking about DLP TVs.

Auger, checkerboard is half resolution, that's why..

They could make it display full frame sequential for bluray 1080p24 framepacked and still support checkerboard for gamers...

and Full HD is a marketing term for 1080p, which checkerboard is not.

but thanks, I didn't realize the current models accepted framepacked, that's nice to see. It's still displayed as half rez checkerboard though...

Cable and satellite HD is 720P or 1080i, and lots of people still watch it.

And checkerboard 3D is actually still 1080P. The 1080 refers to lines of resolution. Passive uses 540 lines. Checkerboard uses 1080 lines. It may use half the pixels for each eye, but resolution is measured in lines. Every other pixel (like black squares on a checkerboard) in each line is used for the other eye's view and is unavailable, but there is still 1920 x 1080 lines per eye. That's what makes checkerboard 3D so ingenious. And so watchable, especially since there is no ghosting or crosstalk inherent in the display.

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post #108 of 163 Old 06-18-2011, 12:30 AM
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Check out this thread re checkerboard:

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?for...amp%3Bt%3D9867

I have two different 3D sets--a Sony 60NX810 LED/LCD, and a Mitsubishi 82837 DLP. The 3D image on the Mits is substantially cleaner than the image on the Sony. Long live checkerboard.
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post #109 of 163 Old 06-18-2011, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prometheus_ts;20431331... View Post

the 8605 has awefull 3d totally unwatchable without getting sick after few secs and need to vomit , at least on my tv tha tI tought was broken...

I would like to confirm this!
I have the 52" model of this TV and 3D is absolutely horrible!
The only movie that actually played with somewhat decent 3D was The Green Hornet. Everything else I tried produced what I actually can't even call ghosting, it's literally a double image on both eyes (or on a few occasions on one eye, sometimes it's the left eye that has the "problem" and sometimes it's the right!) and the depth (way back into the image) is simply impossible to clearly see what's there, as the left and right images overlay each other, while the pop-out part of the 3D effect is always followed by a 100% mirroring artifact (let's say a fish) which is now of course 2D and not 3D!

I've already called philips support, they said I should book an authorized technician to pay a visit to my tv, but I don't think there's a lot he can do (except perhaps confirm these serious issues and suggest a replacement, but that's not happening since I'm not the only one with such issues). Another 2 of my friends got the same 52" model and they are experiencing the same issues (no need to say, we tried replacing the batteries etc).
I tried combining the tv and glasses with a philips 3D blu-ray player (7500mkII) and the official 2010 fifa world cup film 3d blu-ray and people on the stands were blended together on long-distance shots, while the seats looked totally mixed up on a close-up interview. Put the same disk and watched it on a toshiba 3D set... absolutely no comparison (and I don't think that toshiba are among the best 3d tv brands).

Anyway, Philips were my favorite tv brand but in this case they really blew it.

I really-really hope that perhaps with an adjustable set of 3D glasses (any recommendations are very welcome here) I will be able to improve the 3D experience on this tv.

PS. this model also suffers from other issues I've noticed in 2D mode, such as a terrible judder (not sure if this is the proper term) when activating motion plus 200Hz even with the setting on "low" (I mean that a fast moving object produces a mirroring effect between 2 sequential frames when being processed by this motion plus feature)!
PS2. will take the test to let you know what my numbers are when I get back to the tv, in about 3 weeks from now.

edit: it's actually called "perfect natural motion" (got a bit confused with other branded names for it)
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post #110 of 163 Old 06-18-2011, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

Cable and satellite HD is 720P or 1080i, and lots of people still watch it.

And checkerboard 3D is actually still 1080P. The 1080 refers to lines of resolution. Passive uses 540 lines. Checkerboard uses 1080 lines. It may use half the pixels for each eye, but resolution is measured in lines. Every other pixel (like black squares on a checkerboard) in each line is used for the other eye's view and is unavailable, but there is still 1920 x 1080 lines per eye. That's what makes checkerboard 3D so ingenious. And so watchable, especially since there is no ghosting or crosstalk inherent in the display.

I realize all that. All I'm saying is I'd like to see them offer full 1080p per eye, and I think it's doable while still avoiding crosstalk. Anyways, I'd rather not derail this thread further.
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post #111 of 163 Old 06-18-2011, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

I realize all that. All I'm saying is I'd like to see them offer full 1080p per eye, and I think it's doable while still avoiding crosstalk. Anyways, I'd rather not derail this thread further.

I just explained to you how it is already 1080P per eye. Have you seen checkerboard 3D?

Perhaps you meant that you want them to add a second DMD, associated optics, and hardware to the set to fill the pixels at 240 Hz, and add about $1500 to the price of the set? The signal would no longer fit in a normal bandwidth channel, and would be obsolete before it's created, besides not being cost effective, for them or for us. They would be doubling the hardware for a feature not used even 50% of the time.

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post #112 of 163 Old 06-18-2011, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by giorginho View Post

I would like to confirm this!
I have the 52" model of this TV and 3D is absolutely horrible!
The only movie that actually played with somewhat decent 3D was The Green Hornet. Everything else I tried produced what I actually can't even call ghosting, it's literally a double image on both eyes (or on a few occasions on one eye, sometimes it's the left eye that has the "problem" and sometimes it's the right!) and the depth (way back into the image) is simply impossible to clearly see what's there, as the left and right images overlay each other, while the pop-out part of the 3D effect is always followed by a 100% mirroring artifact (let's say a fish) which is now of course 2D and not 3D! ...[snip]

Sounds like your glasses are synchronizing in reverse. Are you sure your 3D sync isn't set to "reverse" or "invert"? Check your settings in the TV.

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post #113 of 163 Old 06-18-2011, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

Sounds like your glasses are synchronizing in reverse. Are you sure your 3D sync isn't set to "reverse" or "invert"? Check your settings in the TV.

Thanks for the reply.

I really don't think Philips offer any settings adjustments for their own glasses.
Their more like plug'n'play, as soon as 3D projection is activated they sync up and that's it.
If you meant inverting the picture I've tried that with a couple of sbs files (swapping left and right) but not much changed and if anything it only became worse, so I switched it back! Still, the framed pack 3D of my 3D blu-ray disk was equally bad.
If anyone tries those monstervision max or other 3rd party super-glasses with this model please let me know what you think, I'm considering getting myself some but at that price tag I'd want to have an idea of what to expect, otherwise I'll take that money and go for a dual 3D projection system (already have one dlp projector).
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post #114 of 163 Old 06-19-2011, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post

I just explained to you how it is already 1080P per eye. Have you seen checkerboard 3D?

Perhaps you meant that you want them to add a second DMD, associated optics, and hardware to the set to fill the pixels at 240 Hz, and add about $1500 to the price of the set? The signal would no longer fit in a normal bandwidth channel, and would be obsolete before it's created, besides not being cost effective, for them or for us. They would be doubling the hardware for a feature not used even 50% of the time.

Arggg.. you explained to me how checkerboard displays its lines with half the pixels (which i was fully aware), i want all the pixels. 240hz isnt necessary.
I said 120hz full frame sequental, checkerboard is 120hz half frame sequential. It's half the pixels no matter how you explain it. I agree it's a clever way of displaying 1080p with half the pixels, but in my book it's not full 1080p. There is no point in arguing over that.
The DLP tv would need to refresh ALL pixels at 120hz. That would not add $1500.
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post #115 of 163 Old 06-19-2011, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Arggg.. you explained to me how checkerboard displays its lines with half the pixels (which i was fully aware), i want all the pixels. 240hz isnt necessary.
I said 120hz full frame sequental, checkerboard is 120hz half frame sequential. It's half the pixels no matter how you explain it. I agree it's a clever way of displaying 1080p with half the pixels, but in my book it's not full 1080p. There is no point in arguing over that.
The DLP tv would need to refresh ALL pixels at 120hz. That would not add $1500.

It would require an additional DMD timed with the first. Effectively, double the mirror speed, or 240Hz. If you add another DMD they have to re-engineer the entire light path (optics), and redesign the associated control circuits. In reality, it would probably add more than $1500.

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post #116 of 163 Old 06-19-2011, 11:34 AM
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i am wondreing if anyone have 2011 3dtv, can you please test it and tell us about the crosstalk?

Pansonic ST30,VT30,GT30
Samsung PND6500,PND7000,PND8000 and also D550
LG PZ550,PZ750,PZ950
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post #117 of 163 Old 07-24-2011, 01:19 AM
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Hey all I must be a total dunce. I have the PS51D6900(2011 model 6 series 51inch plasma) and am wanting to test. Dont really know what I am looking for all I see is the big numbers in various brightness levels, is a small number suppose to appear or do I right down the first big number that is clearly visable.
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post #118 of 163 Old 07-24-2011, 11:53 AM
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Aren't the 4 test descriptions clear enough?

Left eye open/right closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> ?
Left eye open/right closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> ?
Right eye open/left closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> ?
Right eye open/left closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> ?

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post #119 of 163 Old 07-24-2011, 04:07 PM
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Samsung 46D8000 (LCD with LED backlight)
SSG-3300GR (2011 Bluetooth, rechargeable)
SSG-3100GB (2011 Bluetooth, battery)

Both glasses performed similarly.

(TV settings have a huge effect on the results- they should be posted along with results)

TV Settings:

Mode: Movie
Backlight: 1 (primary means to reduce ghosting)
Contrast: 60
Brightness: 85

Left eye open/right closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> 1
Left eye open/right closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> 31
Right eye open/left closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> NOTHING (slight reverse black images)
Right eye open/left closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> 1

Tuned for a realistic image for video content:

Mode: Movie
Backlight: 6
Contrast: 76
Brightness: 60

Left eye open/right closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> 1
Left eye open/right closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> 18 (can get a much better number with a slight angle change)
Right eye open/left closed -> top half screen smaller visible number -> 54
Right eye open/left closed -> bottom half screen smaller visible number -> 1

If I move the lens angle, I can reduce ghosting further in the 2nd example, however watching video content is comfortable and looks good.

The Windows 7 "Play To" feature plays back content smoother than playing locally as a 2nd monitor (may have something to do with the TV's motion smoother).

Thanks for posting the calibration image: very helpful in tuning out ghosting.
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post #120 of 163 Old 07-28-2011, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audionewer View Post

i am wondreing if anyone have 2011 3dtv, can you please test it and tell us about the crosstalk?

Pansonic ST30,VT30,GT30
Samsung PND6500,PND7000,PND8000 and also D550
LG PZ550,PZ750,PZ950

I've tested a GT30 with the 2nd Gen Panny glasses (frame packed mode, .mpo pattern). Results were pretty bad: 1, 10, 10, 1 in THX/Cinema with contrast capped (35-40fL windowed white peak without glass, fairly dim by 3D standards). This result is blatantly obvious in most general 3D content, you will be spotting significant cross talk in just about every scene if you know what to look for. Game and Custom (brightest modes, more inaccurate gamma, 40-45fL without glasses) are even worse: around 1,5,5,1. Best possible result was dropping Contrast to 0 in Cinema/THX, which only resulted in ~1,20,20,1 and was too dim to even view brightly lit source material (completely unusable). I presume the ST and VT are going to be very similar if not identical. Most reviewers are not well versed in 3D, and I wouldn't put any stock in their attempted qualifications of crosstalk. I suspect a lot of them just scene skip through a CG cartoon and draw their conclusions based on that.
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