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post #61 of 307 Old 01-11-2011, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

Best bet is for someone that has a DIY screen to test what they have and report the results here. But perhaps you would like to offer to purchase the different materials and do the testing for us.

I have a DIY screen and will be able to test it soon as everything else is setup and i get my PJ. i will gladly relay my findings however, i dont have any of the fancy measuring equipment so it will only be my personal opinion. which doesnt say much....

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post #62 of 307 Old 01-11-2011, 09:47 PM
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Has anyone used a Draper HP screen? I am considering their 161" high gain screen but hear more about Da-Lite than I do of other brands. My other option is the Model C Da-Lite with 2.4 gain at 159". I have plenty of throw and the projector is right behind the chairs on a dresser about 8-10" above our heads. I have the RS50 JVC projector (3D). Thank you.
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post #63 of 307 Old 01-12-2011, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mntwister View Post
Has anyone used a Draper HP screen? I am considering their 161" high gain screen but hear more about Da-Lite than I do of other brands. My other option is the Model C Da-Lite with 2.4 gain at 159". I have plenty of throw and the projector is right behind the chairs on a dresser about 8-10" above our heads. I have the RS50 JVC projector (3D). Thank you.
After seeing your post, I sent a message to Draper to request samples of their screen material. If I get them, I'll do a test.

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post #64 of 307 Old 01-12-2011, 08:18 AM - Thread Starter
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As posted on another AVS Forum, Da-Lite has stopped the manufacturing of the original version (gain = 2.8) of their High Power fabric and will offer only the gain = 2.4 version from now on.

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post #65 of 307 Old 01-12-2011, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

After seeing your post, I sent a message to Draper to request samples of their screen material. If I get them, I'll do a test.

Thanks Ron, much appreciated!
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post #66 of 307 Old 01-12-2011, 11:15 AM
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Do you think that the Stewart firehawk sst and g3 keep the Same amount of polarization? Seems that the gain is a bit different
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post #67 of 307 Old 01-12-2011, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kanaloa6 View Post

Do you think that the Stewart firehawk sst and g3 keep the Same amount of polarization? Seems that the gain is a bit different

From what I've seen so far you cannot assume how much polarization will be retained based on results from a "similar" screen material, including old versions of screens that have similar names and similar gain specs. to current versions. Best bet is to get samples of the screen materials from the manufacturer and test it for yourself.

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post #68 of 307 Old 01-13-2011, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I have done a few tests to demonstrate the effect of using a screen that retains polarization vs. one that doesn't. The goal of these tests was determine for HT owners using a LCoS projector (i.e., that puts out polarized light but does not use polarization to separate the right and left images), how much real increase in image brightness for 3D viewing results from using a screen that retains some significant polarization. In order to get this benefit the viewers must be wearing liquid crystal shutter 3D glasses using the same polarization orientation as used by the projector.


My test setup is using my ceiling mounted JVC RS40 projector that is mounted (lens center) 7 ft. above the floor and 13.5 ft. from the screen. I have an electric screen which I rolled up half way then attached 3 sample screen materials at a time hanging from the bottom bar on my electric screen. This resulted in the center of each sample screen fabric being about 62" above the floor. I used two different variations on the combination of sample fabrics (see below) and did tests from two different viewing positions. Both positions were centered directly in front of the screen sample. Since one of the samples in all cases was a Da-lite High Power fabric (gain 2.4 version) which is retro-reflective, I did one set of measurements with the camera at 60 inches above the floor (or 24 below the level of the projector) and directly under the projector to show a case where the HP fabric is providing close to its nominal gain. I also did a second series of tests with the camera located 12 ft. from the screen samples and 40 inches above the floor, which would be near a normal seated viewing position.

A few qualifications are in order.
  • The screen sample materials are all from Da-lite and are attached to paper cards. Some of these materials would normally be used with a tensioned screen and as a result my sample shows some uneven image brightest due to not hanging perfectly flat.
  • Also I had my camera in auto-focus mode and some of the photos are somewhat out of focus, but you can still see the relative brightness between the 3 screen materials shown in each photo.
  • The exposure varies some between photos, but this should not be an issue since what you should be looking at is the relative difference in brightness for the 3 screen samples shown within any given photo.
  • Tests were conducted projecting a white test image and three tests were made. First-representing 2D viewing with no glasses; Second-thru a polarizing filter oriented to match he projector representing viewing thru 3D glasses with the correct orientation; Third-thru a polarizing filter oriented to not match the projector representing viewing thru 3D glass with the wrong (shifted 90 degrees) orientation.
  • To verify that the results reported below are fully applicable to actually viewing 3D program thru shutter glasses, I played one of my Blu-ray 3D discs and viewed the image thru my JVC shutter glasses. The results matched what I had observed by viewing (and photographing) thru a linear polarized filter.
  • In both series of tests the left screen sample is the High Gain (gain 2.4) sample and the center sample is the Matte White (gain 1.0) sample. Neither of these screen fabrics maintain any significant level of polarization. In both series the right sample is a Da-Lite screen material that is known to maintain a significant amount of the polarization. As a result the left and center screen materials show no noticeable increase or decrease in image brightness when viewed thru 3D glasses have the same vs. opposite orientation from the polarization as the projector. However, the right screen samples do show a significant brightening and dimming of the image when using 3D glasses with the correct vs. wrong polarization orientation.

SERIES 1 - TESTS

Screen samples: High Power (2.4) - Matte White (1.0) - Cinema Vision (1.3)

Photo #1 - seated position - 2D viewing (no 3D glasses)



Photo #2 - seated position - 3D viewing with glasses w/correct polarization



Photo #3 - seated position - 3D viewing with glasses w/wrong polarization



Photo #4 - 60 inch high position - 2D viewing (no glasses)



Photo #5 - 60 inch high position - 3D viewing with glasses w/correct polarization



Photo #6 - 60 inch high position - 3D viewing with glasses w/wrong polarization


SERIES 2 - TESTS

Screen samples: High Power (2.4) - Matte White (1.0) - Video Spectra (1.5)

Photo #7 - seated position - 2D viewing (no 3D glasses)



Photo #8 - seated position - 3D viewing with glasses w/correct polarization



Photo #9 - seated position - 3D viewing with glasses w/wrong polarization



Photo #10 - 60 inch high position - 2D viewing (no glasses)



Photo #11 - 60 inch high position - 3D viewing with glasses w/correct polarization



Photo #12 - 60 inch high position - 3D viewing with glasses w/wrong polarization


OBSERVATIONS

When viewing from the 60" high position the Da-Lite High Power (2.4) produced the brightest image for 2D viewing (without 3D glasses). This projector-screen-viewer geometry is well suited for using the High Power screen fabric and would be equivalent geometry to having the projector mounted at approx. 60 to 64 inches above the floor and viewing from a normal seated position. Using the screen gain calculator develop by AVS Forum member FLBoy (see link in Post #1), the expected screen gain with the High Power screen material using this projector/screen/viewer geometry is 2.1 (lowing the projector position to just above eye-leve would be required to get the maximum gain from the High Power screen).

When viewing from the 60" high and screen center position the Da-lite High Power still has the brightest image for 3D viewing using shutter glasses with the same polarization orientation as the projector, but the Da-Lite Video Spectra (1.5) was a close second as it showed significant benefit from its ability to retain polarization. However, the High Power has faster fall-off in image brightness as the viewer moves off of the screen center-line as compared to the other screen materials that were tested.

When viewing from the seated position (approx. 40" above floor level) the High Power, Cinema Vision and the Video Spectra were all brighter for 2D viewing (without shutter glasses) than the gain 1.0 matte white material. The High Power screen material appeared similar to the Video Spectra (gain 1.5). Using the Screen Gain Calculator developed by AVS Forum member FLBoy the expected gain with this projector/screen/viewer geometry is 1.76.

When viewing from the seated position (40" above floor level) the Da-Lite Video Spectra (1.5) has a noticeably brighter image than the other screen materials tested for 3D viewing when using shutter glasses with the same polarization orientation as the projector. The Cinema Vision (1.3), while noticeably not a bright as the Video Spectra 1.5 did show benefits from its ability to retain polarization and was the 2nd brightest for 3D viewing from the seated position.

CONCLUSIONS

If you can mount the projector approx. 24 inches, or less, above the viewer's normal eye level then the Da-Lite High Power is a good choice. However, for ceiling mounted projectors that are well above the viewer's eye-level (in my case about 44 to 48 inches above my seated eye level), using a anglar reflective that retains a significant level of polarization, such as the Da-Lite Video Spectra 1.5, can produce a substantially brighter image for 3D viewing thru 3D shutter glasses.

For screens that do retain any significant level of polarization, the 3D glasses must have the same orientation for the polarization as that used by the 3D projector (i.e., for the JVC 3D projectors use the JVC glasses and not the Xpand universal glasses (which have the opposite orientation).

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post #69 of 307 Old 01-13-2011, 12:13 PM
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thanks a bunch for this info ron! for this sentence...

For screens that do retain any significant level of polarization, the 3D glass must have

did you mean to put "For screens that do NOT retain any.....

??
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post #70 of 307 Old 01-13-2011, 01:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

thanks a bunch for this info ron! for this sentence...

For screens that do retain any significant level of polarization, the 3D glass must have

did you mean to put "For screens that do NOT retain any.....

??

No - If a screen retains significant polarization then the 3D shutter glasses need to have the same polarization orientation as the projector, otherwise the viewer will get a dimmer image due to the mis-matched polarization. Conversely, using the same polarization for both the projector and glasses will give a brighter image (both cases as compared to a screen with the same gain that does not retain any polarization). If you use a screen that does not retain polarization then the orientation of the polarizing element within the shutter glasses makes no difference.

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post #71 of 307 Old 01-13-2011, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

No - If a screen retains significant polarization then the 3D shutter glasses need to have the same polarization orientation as the projector, otherwise the viewer will get a dimmer image due to the mis-matched polarization. Conversely, using the same polarization for both the projector and glasses will give a brighter image (both cases as compared to a screen with the same gain that does not retain any polarization). If you use a screen that does not retain polarization then the orientation of the polarizing element within the shutter glasses makes no difference.

so can you use Panasonic active glasses with the JVC projector if you have a screen that has on polarization retention??

i tesed a sample of the DaLite Cinema Vision against my xyz matte white screen and the CV was definitely brighter! i have the JVC w/ JVC glasses...
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post #72 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 12:10 AM
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If all screens were the same price, which would you choose for 3D in a light controlled room with JVC 3D projector:

A) DaLite High Power

B) Stewart ST130G3

C) Stewart Firehawk G3

D) DaLite Cinema Vision
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post #73 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

so can you use Panasonic active glasses with the JVC projector if you have a screen that has on polarization retention??

i tesed a sample of the DaLite Cinema Vision against my xyz matte white screen and the CV was definitely brighter! i have the JVC w/ JVC glasses...

The only shutter glasses confirmed to work with the JVC projectors (to receive the IR signal and sync up with the projector) are those from JVC themselves and the Xpand X103 universal glasses. As described in the 3D Video FAQ thread, shutter glasses are generally not compatible between different brands as there is no standard for the glasses or how the 3DTV sends the sync signal that the glasses must receive. So of the two different glasses that do work with the JVC projectors only the JVC glasses have the same orientation for their polarization as used by the projector (horizontal polarization in both cases) and since you are talking about a screen that retains some significant polarization then the JVC glasses are currently really your only choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

If all screens were the same price, which would you choose for 3D in a light controlled room with JVC 3D projector:

A) DaLite High Power

B) Stewart ST130G3

C) Stewart Firehawk G3

D) DaLite Cinema Vision

It would also depend on other factors such as the projector mounting location, screen size and location, and seating locations (one row or two of the seats, how far back from the screen and how wide - ie., max. distance to the right and left of the screen center-line)

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post #74 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mntwister View Post

Has anyone used a Draper HP screen? I am considering their 161" high gain screen but hear more about Da-Lite than I do of other brands. My other option is the Model C Da-Lite with 2.4 gain at 159". I have plenty of throw and the projector is right behind the chairs on a dresser about 8-10" above our heads. I have the RS50 JVC projector (3D). Thank you.

Which specific Draper screen material are you calling HP? The only one I see on their web site (HERE) that would seem to qualify is their "Glass Beaded" screen material.

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post #75 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
It would also depend on other factors such as the projector mounting location, screen size and location, and seating locations (one row or two of the seats, how far back from the screen and how wide - ie., max. distance to the right and left of the screen center-line)
projector ceiling mounted (center of screen, 14' back)

120" diagonal screen

1 seating row, 14' back from screen, same width of the screen
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post #76 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

projector ceiling mounted (center of screen, 14' back)

120" diagonal screen

1 seating row, 14' back from screen, same width of the screen

I have both the HP 2.8 and ST130 G3. With a ceiling mounted projector, I would go with the ST130 (how high is the projector?). If both screens were equal in brightness, I still think the 130 is the best overall material between the 2. Having said that, if you could lower your projector (such as a rear shelf mount) I would take the HP over the 130 all things considered.

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post #77 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 02:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post
Which specific Draper screen material are you calling HP? The only one I see on their web site (HERE) that would seem to qualify is their "Glass Beaded" screen material.
Quote:
Glass-bead screens exhibit a phenomenon of retroreflection; the light is reflected more intensely back to its source than in any other direction. They work best for setups where the image source is placed in the same direction from the screen as the audience. With retroreflective screens, the screen center might be brighter than the screen periphery, a kind of hot spotting. This differs from semi-specular screens where the hot spot's location varies depending on the viewer's position in the audience. Retroreflective screens are seen as desirable due to the high image intensity they can produce with a given luminous flux from a projector.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_screen
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post #78 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I have both the HP 2.8 and ST130 G3. With a ceiling mounted projector, I would go with the ST130 (how high is the projector?). If both screens were equal in brightness, I still think the 130 is the best overall material between the 2. Having said that, if you could lower your projector (such as a rear shelf mount) I would take the HP over the 130 all things considered.

the lens of the projector is at the top of the screen. eye level is just above the bottom of the screen. throw distance is exactly 12' 10" (or 154") lens to screen. i am really having a hard time choosing between these 4 screens.
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post #79 of 307 Old 01-14-2011, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

the lens of the projector is at the top of the screen. eye level is just above the bottom of the screen. throw distance is exactly 12' 10" (or 154") lens to screen. i am really having a hard time choosing between these 4 screens.

I assume your screen is a 120" 16/9? If so, your screen is nearly 5' tall which puts your eye/lens dif ~4.5' or so, correct?

If all that is right, this is an easy decision..........ST130 G3

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post #80 of 307 Old 01-15-2011, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

If all screens were the same price, which would you choose for 3D in a light controlled room with JVC 3D projector:

A) DaLite High Power

B) Stewart ST130G3

C) Stewart Firehawk G3

D) DaLite Cinema Vision

Can the Firehawk g3 be used as a reasonable good option for 3d viewing ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

projector ceiling mounted (center of screen, 14' back)

120" diagonal screen

1 seating row, 14' back from screen, same width of the screen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I assume your screen is a 120" 16/9? If so, your screen is nearly 5' tall which puts your eye/lens dif ~4.5' or so, correct?

If all that is right, this is an easy decision..........ST130 G3


Quote:
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Can the Firehawk g3 be used as a reasonable good option for 3d viewing ?

I have not tested any of the Stewart screens myself and the info in Post #1 concerning the Stewart screens comes from other forum member's posts.

lincoln_husker: The HP would not work well for your projector location (I have the same situation in my home theater). I know the Stewart ST130 (older versions and the current G3) are popular screens and while the latest version (i.e., G3) is reported to not retain quite as much of the polarization as the older version, as Toe suggests it would seem to be a reasonable choice of the 4 screens you mentioned.

jtsony: I would suggest you seach for reviews on the Firehawk G3 for regular 2D viewing (check the AVS screens forum as a starting point) then take into account that one forum member has reported it maintains a lot of the polarization (which is a good think as long as you use 3D shutter glasses that have the same polarization as your 3D projector).

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I assume your screen is a 120" 16/9? If so, your screen is nearly 5' tall which puts your eye/lens dif ~4.5' or so, correct?

If all that is right, this is an easy decision..........ST130 G3

you are correct, but a couple things...

1. according to stewart, it is rare for them to build a ST130 in a size larger than 110" which concerns me.

2. the Firehawk and Cinema Vision have better polarization retention than the ST130.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtsony View Post

Can the Firehawk g3 be used as a reasonable good option for 3d viewing ?

i don't know for sure, but i would think it would be an excellent choice for 3D because it has excellent polarization retention.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

I have not tested any of the Stewart screens myself and the info in Post #1 concerning the Stewart screens comes from other forum member's posts.

lincoln_husker: The HP would not work well for your projector location (I have the same situation in my home theater). I know the Stewart ST130 (older versions and the current G3) are popular screens and while the latest version (i.e., G3) is reported to not retain quite as much of the polarization as the older version, as Toe suggests it would seem to be a reasonable choice of the 4 screens you mentioned.

jtsony: I would suggest you seach for reviews on the Firehawk G3 for regular 2D viewing (check the AVS screens forum as a starting point) then take into account that one forum member has reported it maintains a lot of the polarization (which is a good think as long as you use 3D shutter glasses that have the same polarization as your 3D projector).

thanks ron. the firehawk specs state that you need a throw distance of at least 1.6x screen width. my throw distance is about 1.44x. what drawbacks are there because i am under the 1.6x minimum throw??

do you have the capability to measure the Firehawk G3 and ST130 G3? i am sorta leaning towards the Firehawk and Cinema Vision because of the claimed higher polarization retention.
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post #85 of 307 Old 01-15-2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

you are correct, but a couple things...

1. according to stewart, it is rare for them to build a ST130 in a size larger than 110" which concerns me.

2. the Firehawk and Cinema Vision have better polarization retention than the ST130.

As far as your 2 points above..........

1. whomever you talked to at Stewart is full of **** to put it nicely. That is pure bogus. You have nothing to worry about as far as them building a 120" screen which is a fairly standard size...........last summer, I ordered a 117.5" 2.35 and it is perfect........you dont have anything to worry about here.

2. The polarization difference will be next to nothing all things considered as far as real world viewing. The cinema vision is a 1.1 gain and the ST130 is a 1.3............the ST130 still retains a pretty good amount of polarization and whatever dif there might be as far as this goes vs the Cinema Vision will be made up for by the ST130s higher gain. If you have a light controlled room, the firehawk should be out of the running IMHO especially in light (no pun intended) of the high native contrast of the JVCs which does NOT need a grey screen in a light controlled environment (and in this type of room, a white screen would be the preference). The ST130 is a MUCH better material compared to the Cinema Vision which should knock it out as well.

All this is just my opinion, but in my mind from all you have mentioned, this is an easy choice...........ST130 G3!

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post #86 of 307 Old 01-15-2011, 05:04 PM
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As far as your 2 points above..........

1. whomever you talked to at Stewart is full of **** to put it nicely. That is pure bogus. You have nothing to worry about as far as them building a 120" screen which is a fairly standard size...........last summer, I ordered a 117.5" 2.35 and it is perfect........you dont have anything to worry about here.

2. The polarization difference will be next to nothing all things considered as far as real world viewing. The cinema vision is a 1.1 gain and the ST130 is a 1.3............the ST130 still retains a pretty good amount of polarization and whatever dif there might be as far as this goes vs the Cinema Vision will be made up for by the ST130s higher gain. If you have a light controlled room, the firehawk should be out of the running IMHO especially in light (no pun intended) of the high native contrast of the JVCs which does NOT need a grey screen in a light controlled environment (and in this type of room, a white screen would be the preference). The ST130 is a MUCH better material compared to the Cinema Vision which should knock it out as well.

All this is just my opinion, but in my mind from all you have mentioned, this is an easy choice...........ST130 G3!

toe-

thank you again for replying and answering my concerns. i am now heavily leaning towards the TS130G3 and plan to order this week!
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post #87 of 307 Old 01-15-2011, 05:56 PM
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toe-

thank you again for replying and answering my concerns. i am now heavily leaning towards the TS130G3 and plan to order this week!

One other thought, and I am not trying to confuse you more, but have you considered the new 5d material from Stewart? 2.0 gain and retains polarization...............sounds great! The problem is that it is not out yet (or is it?) so we have very limited info, and supposedly it is $$$$$$.........this could be knockout though for 2d and 3d. I am curious to get and try a sample myself at some point.

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post #88 of 307 Old 01-15-2011, 06:01 PM
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One other thought, and I am not trying to confuse you more, but have you considered the new 5d material from Stewart? 2.0 gain and retains polarization...............sounds great! The problem is that it is not out yet (or is it?) so we have very limited info, and supposedly it is $$$$$$.........this could be knockout though for 2d and 3d. I am curious to get and try a sample myself at some point.

It's out.. My finger is on the trigger to replace my StudioTek 130 (original) but I'm a little gun shy. I may need some convincing.
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post #89 of 307 Old 01-15-2011, 06:39 PM
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It's out.. My finger is on the trigger to replace my StudioTek 130 (original) but I'm a little gun shy. I may need some convincing.

I assume you would just replace the material and keep your frame? If so, have you got a quote yet for the 5d material?

I will probably order a sample this coming week which I should not be doing.........I just bought a new screen! I guess its the hobbyist in me that is more curious than anything and I am betting this will be a great screen!

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post #90 of 307 Old 01-15-2011, 07:24 PM
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One other thought, and I am not trying to confuse you more, but have you considered the new 5d material from Stewart? 2.0 gain and retains polarization...............sounds great! The problem is that it is not out yet (or is it?) so we have very limited info, and supposedly it is $$$$$$.........this could be knockout though for 2d and 3d. I am curious to get and try a sample myself at some point.

i actually thought about the 5D but being around $1000 more, didn't really consider it because of the 'tried and true' ST130 and FH options. i have read that the 5D isn't the greatest for 2D so im thinkin the 130 is the way to go. maybe i should get a sample....
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