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post #1 of 26 Old 01-08-2011, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Just got back from CES. Here are some quick thoughts on the 3D products I saw. Typing this up on my ipad so it may not look that great.

Passive LCD displays. Saw the vizio and lg panels. The 3d effect was impressive. Its much better than the current generation of time sequential lcd 3d tvs. Based on the demos of live action and games I saw, I think its more impressive than the plasmas I've seen. You've got a much brighter image that contributes greatly to 3d image quality, no flicker, and ghosting levels that look the same as what you see in theaters. Passive 3d is not crosstalk free though, as I can see it in cinemas (tron legacy easily shows this), but the levels seem lower than asg w plasma and will easily be acceptable to the majority of viewers. Of course the manufacturers don't demo ghosting test patterns so I couldnt do a quantitative comparison, but I've got to the point where I know where to see crosstalk based on the content shown. So everyone knows the issue with these passive lcds is half res 3d. The issue isnt so much a softer picture but its the scanline/interlace look that is similar to a big screen standard def crt. This was really obvious on the large panels (65"?) I saw. For the smaller panels that were farther away this was not an issue, but the people thinking about getting a large passive panel should make note of their seating distance to make these sets look their best. Comparing the 2 passive panels, the LG had better IQ than the vizio.

Time sequential plasma. Saw Panasonic's new 30 series. One of the sets was playing the slow motion sports scenes on Panasonic's v1.2 demo disc that I'm very familar with. Didnt see any improvement with crosstalk here. Saw the same ghosts around the baseball, painted lines on the basketball court, etc. I think samsung only showcased its improved 3d image processing. Pretty underwhelming.

Time sequential lcd. Looked at sony's 929, the latest samsung, and panasonic's lcd. The 929 looks like ghosting has improved slightly over the 909 but its still there. Could still spot it in the Open Season demo clip. Samsung had a demo showing crosstalk improvements with their new lcds compared to last years model. The demo had clips from how to train your dragon, the samsung demo, and some other footage with the crosstalk highlighted. Yes, the new samsung lcds have improved here, but crosstalk was still visible in other areas of the image. I'd say it was on par with sony's 909 since I have those discs and am familiar with Sony's crosstalk. Panasonic's lcd didnt look worse than samsungs but the demo they had for it really didnt have a lot of potential for crosstalk. So which one did I think was the best performing time sequential lcd panel? None of the above--it was actually the Acer lcd monitors in the nvidia booth. I dont know what model they had on display but I saw a lot of gaming and live action footage with extreme parallax and high contrast objects that didnt show crosstalk. Wonder what type of panel they use. I also checked out xpands booth. The youniversal glasses (104?) were very light but will cost more than the 103s. I do want to but a pair though since its the only glasses I know of that allows you to adjust duty cycle parameters. I was told the 103s will eventually support nvidia's emitter which is good news for people like me.

Lcos projectors. Saw a demo of the flagship JVC and the passive LG projector. The JVC obviously had better IQ but also had lcd-like crosstalk. Oddly, JVC demoed a 2d back to the future clip that really showed off detail-free DNR. Not sure what was happening with the LG passive setup but the ghosting was pretty bad. The color setting looking like it was cranked to 11 didnt help either.

Autosteroscopic displays. Saw a toshiba that was maybe 30" and a smaller sony. The sony was a little better than toshibas but both arent anything to write home about. You get a slight depth effect but nothing really pops out of the screen. There are also specific spots you have to view it from to get the 3d illusion. Besides the IQ issues, the other negative was a having a sensation that my eyes were crossed while I watched the display. Its almost like the discofort you get when your eyes try to fuse an image that has too much separation.

To recap, I was impressed by the improvements in the lcd camp. The biggest being passive tech. I think this will be the tech that will be deployed in the majority of future 3d households. Plasma looked like it was resting on its laurels since I didnt see any major 3d improvements there. Dlp still offers the best solution for 3d projection but doesnt seem to have any marketing to push it. I also think you'll have a nice 55" oled display before theres an autostereoscopic display worth buying.
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post #2 of 26 Old 01-08-2011, 10:45 PM
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Agreed,,, the passives I saw today at CES looked way better than the actives I looked at.

Cheers
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post #3 of 26 Old 01-08-2011, 10:54 PM
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Good stuff!
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post #4 of 26 Old 01-08-2011, 11:07 PM
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Thanks for your impressions. Has anyone had a chance to see LG's 31-inch 3D OLED? I haven't read anything negative about this model yet, and am curious if people have perceived any shortcomings.
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post #5 of 26 Old 01-09-2011, 05:22 AM
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post #6 of 26 Old 01-09-2011, 11:32 AM
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Which LED LCD did you like the most ? And which one has the best 3D ?
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post #7 of 26 Old 01-09-2011, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad360 View Post

Which LED LCD did you like the most ? And which one has the best 3D ?

My favorite was the smaller lg passive led lcd tv for 3d. Did not see how it performs in 2d though.

Didnt realize lg had an active oled 3d on display. Would've liked to see if oleds are as fast as I've heard.
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post #8 of 26 Old 01-09-2011, 08:07 PM
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Was Optoma showing any of their 3D ready DLP projectors driven by the 3D-XL converter?

If so, will someone comment on the 3D picture quality and overall picture stability?
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post #9 of 26 Old 01-09-2011, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RetroElectro View Post

My favorite was the smaller lg passive led lcd tv for 3d. Did not see how it performs in 2d though.

Didnt realize lg had an active oled 3d on display. Would've liked to see if oleds are as fast as I've heard.

What about Active 3D ? Which had the best 3D for LED ?

Thanks,by the way, appreciated the feedback.
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post #10 of 26 Old 01-09-2011, 09:13 PM
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did you see the lg glassless?
http://revision3.com/tzdaily/ces2011lg

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post #11 of 26 Old 01-10-2011, 07:22 AM
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Awesome writeup. Thanks for indepth on the passive and the size issue. I really can't wait to see one of these in stores.
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post #12 of 26 Old 01-10-2011, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post
did you see the lg glassless?
http://revision3.com/tzdaily/ces2011lg
Toshiba and Sony showed glassless 3D; and I will say, without fear of contradiction, that it does not work with the technology employed--there are blurry areas even if the viewer is still and the 3D is just partial.
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post #13 of 26 Old 01-10-2011, 11:44 AM
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there was a laptop that tracked the face did any one get to see it?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/205194/att...top#s-p2-sr-i1

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post #14 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyo View Post

Agreed,,, the passives I saw today at CES looked way better than the actives I looked at.

Cheers
Davyo

OK, you've stated your opinion 8.5 billion times. Do you have a financial interest in passive glasses? Large stock amounts? CEO of a company? You don't even own a TV with Active Shutter Glasses (according to you). You ignore the fact that Pixar chose to project UP at Cannes -- at GREAT expense -- with Active Shutter Glasses, as they thought they were the best glasses available. You get people banned from threads for simply stating favorable facts about active glasses. You've been asked repeatedly from various people at AVS if you have a financial stake in passive glasses. You've continually ignored those questions. Once and for all, let us all know, do you have a vested financial interest in passive glasses? As they are currently far inferior to active glasses (in my opinion, and, despite your snarky comments, I have seen passive glasses on plenty of televisions), your defense of them certainly comes at a price, does it not? Thank you.

Cheers,
Barb
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post #15 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barb1978 View Post

OK, you've stated your opinion 8.5 billion times. Do you have a financial interest in passive glasses? Large stock amounts? CEO of a company? You don't even own a TV with Active Shutter Glasses (according to you). You ignore the fact that Pixar chose to project UP at Cannes -- at GREAT expense -- with Active Shutter Glasses, as they thought they were the best glasses available. You get people banned from threads for simply stating favorable facts about active glasses. You've been asked repeatedly from various people at AVS if you have a financial stake in passive glasses. You've continually ignored those questions. Once and for all, let us all know, do you have a vested financial interest in passive glasses? As they are currently far inferior to active glasses (in my opinion, and, despite your snarky comments, I have seen passive glasses on plenty of televisions), your defense of them certainly comes at a price, does it not? Thank you.

Cheers,
Barb

No I dont own a active 3D panel or a passive 3D panel,,,, I considered buying an active panel but decided to wait until after I saw a passive to decide which was the better choice for me.

I've gotten people banned from threads for supporting active 3D,,, how would I have done that,, Im not an AVS moderator and have no influence over the AVS moderators,,,,,, people get banned from AVS threads for reasons I am unsure of but getting banned for making a postitve statement's about a certain technology,,,, really ?????

As far as being asked from various AVS members if I have a stake in passive glass's I have no idea what you are even talking about,,,,I think one member made a coment to me like that,,,, but being asked that repeatedly by various AVS members,,,, I dont think so.

But I do get the jest of your post,,,,,, your making up a bunch of stuff (smoke and mirrors) to "try" and draw attention from the question I have asked you ever since our debate began, the same question that you refuse to answer.

You claim active is better than passive based of the fact you have seen more active panels than I even know exist,,,,Ok,,, cool,,,, I think its very resonable to ask you to tell us all which passive panels you have seen ????

I think, and and am pretty certain the reason you never answer the question is because you have never seen a passive panel,,,,, most people on here have not seen a passive panel yet,,, and I had not seen a passive panel before CES,,,,,,, reason being,,, is the passive panels have not even been released yet (except for the 65" Vizio that just came out for sale a few weeks ago).

Since no passive panels have even been released yet (except for one) your statement that you have seen countless passive panels merits the question.

Your claiming active panels are better than passive based on your personal experience with seeing active vs passive,,,,so the question remains,,,, which passive panels did you see, and when and where ????????

Cheers
Davyo
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post #16 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davyo View Post

No I dont own a active 3D panel or a passive 3D panel,,,, I considered buying an active panel but decided to wait until after I saw a passive to decide which was the better choice for me.

I've gotten people banned from threads for supporting active 3D,,, how would I have done that,, Im not an AVS moderator and have no influence over the AVS moderators,,,,,, people get banned from AVS threads for reasons I am unsure of but getting banned for making a postitve statement's about a certain technology,,,, really ?????

As far as being asked from various AVS members if I have a stake in passive glass's I have no idea what you are even talking about,,,,I think one member made a coment to me like that,,,, but being asked that repeatedly by various AVS members,,,, I dont think so.

But I do get the jest of your post,,,,,, your making up a bunch of stuff (smoke and mirrors) to "try" and draw attention from the question I have asked you ever since our debate began, the same question that you refuse to answer.

You claim active is better than passive based of the fact you have seen more active panels than I even know exist,,,,Ok,,, cool,,,, I think its very resonable to ask you to tell us all which passive panels you have seen ????

I think, and and am pretty certain the reason you never answer the question is because you have never seen a passive panel,,,,, most people on here have not seen a passive panel yet,,, and I had not seen a passive panel before CES,,,,,,, reason being,,, is the passive panels have not even been released yet (except for the 65" Vizio that just came out for sale a few weeks ago).

Since no passive panels have even been released yet (except for one) your statement that you have seen countless passive panels merits the question.

Your claiming active panels are better than passive based on your personal experience with seeing active vs passive,,,,so the question remains,,,, which passive panels did you see, and when and where ????????

Cheers
Davyo

Davyo,

I own a 65 inch Mitsubishi – – and I watched 3-D on it for about 100 hours. I also spent a considerable amount of time watching passive 3-D at CES. How much time have you spent in actual comparison of the Mitsubishi against the passives? I can't believe that you made that comparison; because if you had, I don't believe you could be that enthused over the passives (and don't forget that the Mitsubishi costs half as much as the Vizio, including six pair of glasses).
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post #17 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by barb1978 View Post

OK, you've stated your opinion 8.5 billion times.

That number may be a tad bit off since he has less than 4000 posts, but I like the addition of the ".5" for emphasis.
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post #18 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Nomad360 View Post

What about Active 3D ? Which had the best 3D for LED ?

Thanks,by the way, appreciated the feedback.

I liked the Acer computer monitors. Sony's 929 seemed to offer better ghosting performance than Samsung. Didn't get a chance to see Sharp's, Toshiba's, or LG's active sets. I did read after attending CES that Toshiba has a 3D Cross-Talk Canceller function in their new sets. Would've liked to see how that worked.
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post #19 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmalter0 View Post

Davyo,

I own a 65 inch Mitsubishi – – and I watched 3-D on it for about 100 hours. I also spent a considerable amount of time watching passive 3-D at CES. How much time have you spent in actual comparison of the Mitsubishi against the passives? I can't believe that you made that comparison; because if you had, I don't believe you could be that enthused over the passives (and don't forget that the Mitsubishi costs half as much as the Vizio, including six pair of glasses).

I didnt spend much time at the Mits booth,,,,, I did see the 92" RPTV 3D and it was impressive from what little I saw of it but Im not really interested in RPTV for a personal purchase.

My main goal at CES was to compare active and passive flat panels since that's what Im in the market for as a personal purchase.

But yes,,, the Mits 92 incher did look very impressive.

Cheers
Davyo
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post #20 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barb1978
OK, you've stated your opinion 8.5 billion times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post
That number may be a tad bit off since he has less than 4000 posts, but I like the addition of the ".5" for emphasis.
Yes,,, the ".5" was a nice touch,,, it did make me chuckle.

But I must admit, it did make me curious as to how close her 8.5 billion claim was,,,, so I checked

I went to CES and saw passive for the first time on 1/5/11 and after seeing passive I posted my opinions of passvie vs active a total of 9 times between the dates of 1/5/11 and 1/11/11.

I counted postings that I made were I said passive impressed me more or I like it more than active,,, I didnt count quote's that were copied of my posting's or talk in general about LCD panels and did not count the pictures I posted of my self at CES standing next to panels I had looked at.

I counted only posting's and the one thread I started in which I said I thought passive was better than active,,,, and like I said,,, I came up with 9 postings.

Keep in mind those 9 postings were in 4 thread area's,,,, the Vizio 65" thread, my Passive wins thread, the CES Impressions thread and the LCD displays thread,,,,,, 4 thread area's with a total of 9 postings.

Lets round the 8.5 billion off to an even 8 billion and lets round off my 9 postings to an even 10,,,, so 10 from 8,000,000,000 would be,,,,, hold on a sec,,,,,,, Ok,, got it,,,, 7,000,000,090.

So Barb was only off by 7 billion and 90 postings

Cheers
Davyo
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post #21 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 09:52 PM
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He is off by 7,999,999,990 postings...
Passive 3D+OLED=FUTURE
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post #22 of 26 Old 01-11-2011, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CATYPH202 View Post

He is off by 7,999,999,990 postings...
Passive 3D+OLED=FUTURE

Opppp's my bad,,, I stand corrected,,,, 7,999,999,990 + 10 would be 8 billion.

Cheers
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post #23 of 26 Old 01-12-2011, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

there was a laptop that tracked the face did any one get to see it?
http://www.hulu.com/watch/205194/att...top#s-p2-sr-i1

I got to demo the laptop. It was by far the best glasses free tech at CES. The tracking did a good job of keeping the image 3D without blurring. I did have a weird glitch, I was behind a guy with a long beard and the computer wouldn't ever lock onto his face. The guy at the booth said it had happened to other people with beards too.
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post #24 of 26 Old 01-12-2011, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by eat meat View Post

did you see the lg glassless?
http://revision3.com/tzdaily/ces2011lg

I saw that LG glassesless TV. It probably had the smoothest picture of the glassesless I'd seen there, but I never actually got any depth out of the picture
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post #25 of 26 Old 01-13-2011, 01:28 PM
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I saw that LG glassesless TV. It probably had the smoothest picture of the glassesless I'd seen there, but I never actually got any depth out of the picture

It looked like the bad 3D holograms from the late 1970s/early 1980s to me. I wasn't really impressed. The Sony glasses-less technology had even less depth, but had worse viewing conditions (small screen, farther away, big crowd around). The Toshiba glasses-less technology had a 3D effect, but it has a long way to go before I'd put my money into a set.

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post #26 of 26 Old 01-14-2011, 12:23 PM
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When Princess Leia is projected into my living room, I'll believe that glasses-less 3D is here. And even then, the image will be small.

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