The "Official" Optoma 3DXL Owner's thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 1727 Old 03-12-2011, 01:37 PM
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whats the problem with Comcast Over/Under 3d and the 3D-XL?
I thought the specs on the 3D-XL is it accepts , Frame packed (bluray), SBS and Over Under... does it not work with over under?
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post #902 of 1727 Old 03-12-2011, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jadeezra View Post

This company claims to have some, but its the weekend and you cant call.

http://www.cutratebazaar.com/pa-optbg3dxl.html

I havent heard of them before and the only info I found was from the amazon store, the ratings arent good with only 55% positive feedback. Has anyone every ordered from that site?
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post #903 of 1727 Old 03-12-2011, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectdark View Post

whats the problem with Comcast Over/Under 3d and the 3D-XL?
I thought the specs on the 3D-XL is it accepts , Frame packed (bluray), SBS and Over Under... does it not work with over under?

Correct- Those all are part of the HDMI 1.4a specs. But the Comcast Side by side and over/Under (aka: Top/Bottom) 3-D broadcasts are all standard HDMI 1.3. While the 3DXL has a manual Side By Side switch (for HDMI 1.3 SBS souces) there is not a manual switch to go to the above/below mode.

So at this point: Above/below HDMI 1.3 sources and the 3DXL= No can do.
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post #904 of 1727 Old 03-12-2011, 06:21 PM
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Now that I've had a chance to watch several films, let me update my review.

I solved my HDMI woes by getting an extender. When I want to watch 3D, I plug the cables into the 3DXL box and when I plan to do anything else, I just plug the two cables directly into the extender instead.

I had stated that there was a greenish tinge to the picture, and I have since noticed that only Open Season is affected. All other movies look great in terms of color.

My only complaint now is that there is no detail in blacks. This is especially noticeable on Grand Canyon Adventure. If I adjust the brightness of the projector up, that detail becomes visible, but then everything appears too gray.

I have a GT720 projector shooting onto a 119" 1.1 gain screen. The projector is rated at 2500 lumens in Bright mode. Is that asking too much of the projector in terms of brightness?

I'm considering ordering a pair of RealD CrystalEyes 5. They claim a 5000:1 contrast ratio and 40% transmittance compared with the 1000:1 contrast ration of the included Optoma pair. i cannot find information concerning the light transmittance of the Optomas at all.
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post #905 of 1727 Old 03-12-2011, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike35_70_DLP View Post

My only complaint now is that there is no detail in blacks. This is especially noticeable on Grand Canyon Adventure. If I adjust the brightness of the projector up, that detail becomes visible, but then everything appears too gray.

I had problems with Grand Canyon too. I changed the gamma and all is good. i sometimes have to change the gamma setting for whatever I watch. Try that before you mess with the brightness.
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post #906 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregK View Post

Correct- Those all are part of the HDMI 1.4a specs. But the Comcast Side by side and over/Under (aka: Top/Bottom) 3-D broadcasts are all standard HDMI 1.3. While the 3DXL has a manual Side By Side switch (for HDMI 1.3 SBS souces) there is not a manual switch to go to the above/below mode.

So at this point: Above/below HDMI 1.3 sources and the 3DXL= No can do.

Then there is a mjor problem here..... as Optoma's specs clearly state it does Over/Under

3D Compatibility Side-by-Side:1080i50, 1080i60
Frame-pack:1080p24, 720p50, 720p60
Over-Under: 1080p24, 720p50, 720p60

http://www.optoma.co.uk/projectordet...nment&PC=3D-XL
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post #907 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 07:12 AM
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Dual frame packed 1080p/24 is often referred to as "Over Under'
As compared to 720p/60 Top-N-Bottom.
AFAIK All Comcast locations use HDMI 1.4a 1080i Side by Side format for all standard 3D broadcasts except for ESPN-3D for which they use HDMI 1.4a 720p/60 TnB. In no case do they use the packed double frame over/Under format used by 3DBR disk players.
see:

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/
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post #908 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 07:14 AM
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interesting.... in Canada we are all 720p SBS hdmi 1.3a no boexes are 1.4 and our cable companies don't even have 3D content yet, just 3D preview channel playing a loop of short videos
1 of our satellite companies is launching a ppv 3D channel but thats SBS also
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post #909 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

Dual frame packed 1080p/24 is often referred to as "Over Under'
As compared to 720p/60 Top-N-Bottom.
AFAIK All Comcast locations use HDMI 1.4a 1080i Side by Side format for all standard 3D broadcasts except for ESPN-3D for which they use HDMI 1.4a 720p/60 TnB. In no case do they use the packed double frame over/Under format used by 3DBR disk players.
see:

http://hdguru.com/3d-hdtv-and-hdmi-explained/1336/

If thats correct for all areas, how did they make my 4 year old scientific atlanta SA 8300HD go from a 1.3 to a 1.4 output?

Not trying to be smart just want to know how thats possible.

Wake me when HD gets Here!
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post #910 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chezbrgr2 View Post

If thats correct for all areas, how did they make my 4 year old scientific atlanta SA 8300HD go from a 1.3 to a 1.4 output?

Not trying to be smart just want to know how thats possible.

because its not possible

Side-By-Side and Over-Under are both HDMI 1.3 which is why all SA boxes work for 3D.. I am a Headend Technician for a local Cable Company and this is what we use S-B-S and the rare O-U and both are 1.3 HDMI half resolution which is why it doesn't take anymore bandwidth to add these mpgs to our current QAMs

"when it comes to airing 3D content over cable/air, Side by Side 3D and Top and Bottom 3D are proving to be a popular choice as they are backwards compatible with HDMI 1.3 systems." quote from http://www.best-3dtvs.com/what-is-ov...and-bottom-3d/
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post #911 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectdark View Post

Then there is a mjor problem here..... as Optoma's specs clearly state it does Over/Under

3D Compatibility Side-by-Side:1080i50, 1080i60
Frame-pack:1080p24, 720p50, 720p60
Over-Under: 1080p24, 720p50, 720p60

http://www.optoma.co.uk/projectordet...nment&PC=3D-XL

The web site neglected to mention that those formats are only supported over HDMI 1.4a. The manual that comes with the 3D-XL has a table listing the supported formats for HDMI 1.4a and the suported formats for 1.3. For 1.4a, it lists all the formats listed on the web site. For 1.3 it only lists frame-compatible SbS format.

As you pointed out in another post, a 3D signal can be transmitted over 1.3 by squeezing it half and stacking two signals either side-by-side (SbS) or top-and-bottom (TnB). I hadn't thought about the point you raised in your other post: using frame-compatible SbS or TnB formats allows the cable companies to transmit 3D without any equipment upgrades.

Comcast in the US is using both formats. They currently have two 3D channels: XF3D and ESPN3D. XF3D so far has mainly been showing SbS and it works fine with the 3D-XL. ESPN uses both formats. Comcast's on-demand programming is also a mix of both formats. You don't know which format the on-demand content is until it begins and there is a short video telling you which format to select.

With 1.4a, the HDMI signal itself tells the receiver what the format is so there is no need to set it on your TV. With 1.3, you need to manually set the format. 3D TVs have setting for both SbS and TnB. The 3D-XL only allows you to specify SbSn, not TnB.

The 3D-XL does recognize 1.4a and sets the format appropriately. With 1.3, you need to set the format and that is where the problem comes in. Optoma could fix the problem with a simple firmware update that allows both SbS and TnB. I have alredy sent an online support request asking if they will be adding TnB support. I will post their response as soon as I hear back. I would encourage anyone else to whom this is important to contact them as well. Perhaps if they hear from enough of us, they will add TnB support.

Joe
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post #912 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Linn View Post

The web site neglected to mention that those formats are only supported over HDMI 1.4a. The manual that comes with the 3D-XL has a table listing the supported formats for HDMI 1.4a and the suported formats for 1.3. For 1.4a, it lists all the formats listed on the web site. For 1.3 it only lists frame-compatible SbS format.

As you pointed out in another post, a 3D signal can be transmitted over 1.3 by squeezing it half and stacking two signals either side-by-side (SbS) or top-and-bottom (TnB). I hadn't thought about the point you raised in your other post: using frame-compatible SbS or TnB formats allows the cable companies to transmit 3D without any equipment upgrades.

Comcast in the US is using both formats. They currently have two 3D channels: XF3D and ESPN3D. XF3D so far has mainly been showing SbS and it works fine with the 3D-XL. ESPN uses both formats. Comcast's on-demand programming is also a mix of both formats. You don't know which format the on-demand content is until it begins and there is a short video telling you which format to select.

With 1.4a, the HDMI signal itself tells the receiver what the format is so there is no need to set it on your TV. With 1.3, you need to manually set the format. 3D TVs have setting for both SbS and TnB. The 3D-XL only allows you to specify SbSn, not TnB.

The 3D-XL does recognize 1.4a and sets the format appropriately. With 1.3, you need to set the format and that is where the problem comes in. Optoma could fix the problem with a simple firmware update that allows both SbS and TnB. I have alredy sent an online support request asking if they will be adding TnB support. I will post their response as soon as I hear back. I would encourage anyone else to whom this is important to contact them as well. Perhaps if they hear from enough of us, they will add TnB support.

Joe

good suggestion

disapointing to hear about the O-U TnB ... i thought the 3D-XL would have had a button like the SBS .. i guess i just assumed it did .... this really is terrible, but like you said a simple firmware upgrade should resolve this
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post #913 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 04:43 PM
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1.4a vs. 1.3. Just so people don't get confused between cabling and electronics. If it's cable or pass through on a receiver, it's a measure of specification throughput. If it's a measure of electronics signal recognition, then it's what the international specification has stated the signal type(e.g. 1.4a) is capable of processing. 1.4a did have increased resolution and over/under specifications added to it. So electronics that recognize it must be compliant to it. BUT, cabling and receivers are basically pass through devices that meet the spec by having the capability to handle the increased signal requirements. SO, 1.3 cables and receivers can pass through 1.4a, but some don't. What Joe is talking about is the 3DXL electronics, not the cabling or your receivers. So how do PCs work then with mostly 1.3 cabling and normal blu-ray as 3D players, well it's all about the software players such as PowerDVD Ultra and TMT5 that does the heavy lifting to convert the signals to watchable 3D--ie. frame sequentional 120hz--what the 3DXL should be doing.
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post #914 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 05:18 PM
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I just posted the question "why" Over-Under doesn't work on the 3D-XL when the specs say it should on Optoma USA's Facebook WALL.. I suggest others do the same as Optoma will then need to respond since its public

http://www.facebook.com/OptomaUSA?sk=wall
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post #915 of 1727 Old 03-13-2011, 06:34 PM
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Actually I was talking about the protocol, not the electronics or cables. HDMI is a protocol, a set us standards for devices to communciate, like TCP/IP.

For two devices to communicate, they need to exchange a handshake in which they agree to how that communication will take place. With HDMI 1.3, there are commands to agree on content protection, resolution, audio format, and so on. Since it pre-dates 3D, there are no commands for the devices to agree on 3D format.

HDMI 1.4a added 3D so it added commands for the sender to tell the receiver that it was going to send an over/under signal or a side-by-side signal. Because of this, with HDMI 1.4a, there is no need to set the receiving devices to the right 3D format.

With HDMI 1.3, since the protocol itself cannot tell the receiving device what format is coming, you need to set it manually. You need to set the 3D format to over/under or side-by-side.

With HDMI 1.4a, the 3D format gets set automatically.

The 3D-XL works fine with HDMI 1.4a. The 3D format gets set automatically and you don't have to worry about it. It can display all the formats under HDMi 1.4a. It can display over/under or side-by-side when it knows that is what it is receiving.

The 3D-XL has a button to tell it that an HDMI 1.3 signal is in side-by-side format. There is no way to tell it the signal is over/under.

This would be a very simple programming change for Optoma to make to the firmware. The device can already display all the formats. They just need a way for you to tell it that an HDMI 1.3 signal is in over/under format. They could do that by changing the functioning of the SBS button. Currently, the button toggles SBS mode on and off. By changing a few lines of code, they could have the button toggle from off to side-by-side to over/under.

That's the change we need to ask them to make.

Joe
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post #916 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectdark View Post
I just posted the question "why" Over-Under doesn't work on the 3D-XL when the specs say it should on Optoma USA's Facebook WALL.. I suggest others do the same as Optoma will then need to respond since its public

http://www.facebook.com/OptomaUSA?sk=wall
Good idea! I added a reply to your post echoing what you said.

Joe
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I am using an HD66 with the 3D-XL on a 100" screen using bright mode with Xpand 102 glasses. Some movies are a little too dark. I would like to boost the brightness some if I could. My screen is a matte white 1.0 gain. Any projector settings would be appreciated. Thanks.
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post #918 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 08:07 AM
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The factory offered blaze mode is pretty blazing on these.
I'd be inclined to tell you to move to a screen with higher gain.

When you say some movies? Got some specific examples? Like A Christmas Carol for example is pretty dark in 2D on my regular 2D display. It's by the film makers intent.
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post #919 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchilty View Post

I am using an HD66 with the 3D-XL on a 100" screen using bright mode with Xpand 102 glasses. Some movies are a little too dark. I would like to boost the brightness some if I could. My screen is a matte white 1.0 gain. Any projector settings would be appreciated. Thanks.

This has been a concern of mine, too.

Can you tell us a couple of things:

1. Which movies?
2. Do the same movies look too dark when you view them in 2D, or just in 3D?
3. If you take off the glasses while in 3D (I know it will be blurry looking), do you see more shadow detail (i.e., is it still too dark)?

You might want to try some glasses that have a higher transmittance. I read somewhere that the Xpands only have like a 15% transmission factor. That seemed almost unbelievably low because some others transmit 30-40%. That won't solve the problem, but it may mitigate it--theoretically by up to 25%. I'd also play with the contrast, but that's to be assumed.
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post #920 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchilty View Post

I am using an HD66 with the 3D-XL on a 100" screen using bright mode with Xpand 102 glasses. Some movies are a little too dark. I would like to boost the brightness some if I could. My screen is a matte white 1.0 gain. Any projector settings would be appreciated. Thanks.

Now i don't have the 3D-XL yet

but i've watched Legends Of The Guardians and Resident Evil Afterlife via my Laptop and sterescopic player. I have the Ultra Clear Heaven DLP Link glasses, Optoma HD66 and the picture was fine. not too dark at all.
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Originally Posted by jadeezra View Post

This company claims to have some, but its the weekend and you cant call.

http://www.cutratebazaar.com/pa-optbg3dxl.html

I contacted them before ordering via e-mail over the weekend and this was their reply today:

Dear Customer,
Thanks for your inquiry, this item got discontinued and our inventory is sold out.

Thank You
www.CutRateBazaar.com
Shop More, Pay Less


Oh well...
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post #922 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 12:22 PM
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Go figure....... The soap opera continues.
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post #923 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchilty View Post

I am using an HD66 with the 3D-XL on a 100" screen using bright mode with Xpand 102 glasses. Some movies are a little too dark. I would like to boost the brightness some if I could. My screen is a matte white 1.0 gain. Any projector settings would be appreciated. Thanks.

I had brightness issues as well.

First, I have the the Xpand 102 glasses and they don't let much light through. They work great for DLP RPTVs but for the HD66, I wouldn't recommend them.

I have a pair of Viewsonic PGD-150's and they are much better and brighter. These glasses also have a invert sync option right on the glasses so you can invert the 3D without having to go into the projector menus.

The glasses was the first step. I then started looking at the brightness and contrast controls. By boosting the contrast a bit, I was able to overcome some of the brightness issues. The only problem with that is that you lose a bit of detail in the picture. Overall though, its not too bad and boosting the sharpness helps as well. I also notice there is a bit of focus drift on the HD66 so after the projector has fully warmed up, you may need check the focus ring to make sure you still have a nice clear picture.

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post #924 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gotchacovered View Post

I read somewhere that the Xpands only have like a 15% transmission factor. That seemed almost unbelievably low because some others transmit 30-40%. That won't solve the problem, but it may mitigate it--theoretically by up to 25%. I'd also play with the contrast, but that's to be assumed.


Gotcha -

Do you remember the brand of the DLP glasses with the high transmission factor? I haven't heard of these yet. I have got the ultra clear dlp, HD66, and 3dxl and with a movie like "A Christmas Carol" the brightness really suffers since it is mostly photographed with dark scenes. But the glasses seem to be a big factor here. I will try other brands if the specifications look promising.
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post #925 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 02:52 PM
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Anybody have a suggestion as to where to order now, either in terms of shorter wait (more coming) / paying only when it ships or still in stock. Thx
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Ah, the golden question. If only somebody knew, I dont even think the retailers do. Everybody is being left in the dark.
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post #927 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HTFAN007 View Post

Gotcha -

Do you remember the brand of the DLP glasses with the high transmission factor? I haven't heard of these yet. I have got the ultra clear dlp, HD66, and 3dxl and with a movie like "A Christmas Carol" the brightness really suffers since it is mostly photographed with dark scenes. But the glasses seem to be a big factor here. I will try other brands if the specifications look promising.

Per the specs I've read, the Xpand X101's are 15%, X102's are 34%, Cystal Eyes 3's are 35%, Xpand X103's are 37%, the the ones that Palme sells are 38% +/- 2%, and the Crystal Eyes 4's and 5's are 40%. Some others that were anywhere from 25%-30%.

These are trasmittance rates for the clear state (while the opaque state is 0%, obviously, or should be). Of course, there's also a certain extent to which the shutter action affects transmittance overall, and Xpand claims that they have faster shutter speed, which optimizes transmittance, but vendors make all kinds of claims, so I usually go based on (1) hard specs, and (2) live comparisons.

On that note, which ones are you using? I'd love to hear some input on how some glasses compare to others on this.

I forgot to mention that Viewsonic makes a PGD-250 that boasts a 65% transmittance, which is obviously a leap ahead of the competition on that factor, but I've read several bad reviews from people saying that it loses sync too easily and too often.
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post #928 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Linn View Post

Good idea! I added a reply to your post echoing what you said.

Joe

Here is Optoma USA responde to Over-Under

OptomaUSA Dear Ian - Yes, we have found this problem with the timing. 3D-XL only support over-under HDMI 1.3, and we are finding a solution for over-under HDMI 1.4a at the moment.
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike.
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Originally Posted by perfectdark View Post

Here is Optoma USA responde to Over-Under

OptomaUSA Dear Ian - Yes, we have found this problem with the timing. 3D-XL only support over-under HDMI 1.3, and we are finding a solution for over-under HDMI 1.4a at the moment.
5 hours ago · LikeUnlike.

Well, I thought 1.3 over/under is what cable provides--now I'm really confused.
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post #930 of 1727 Old 03-14-2011, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perfectdark View Post

Here is Optoma USA responde to Over-Under

OptomaUSA Dear Ian - Yes, we have found this problem with the timing. 3D-XL only support over-under HDMI 1.3, and we are finding a solution for over-under HDMI 1.4a at the moment.

I don't know what is meant by Over-Under HDMI 1.3 means. Does it mean that only thier current 720p PJs with HDMI 1.3 receiver chips support 720p/60 frame sequntial 3D which is sometimes called Over-Under and is what is outut by the 3D-XL? Or does it mean that the 3D-XL can not properly process the HDMI 1.4 Packed double 1080p frame format from 3D BR disk players as input?
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