3D Passive Display Gaming for the PC - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 29 Old 06-23-2011, 05:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Anyone that's ready to game in 3D for pc games, this is the place I am going to respond to others about questions you may have on gaming and so on.

The first thing you want to do when playing games in 3D is get your games installed and ready to play on your computer. This is important because there is a 30 day trial on IZ3D drivers and if you can at least see how games play in 3D, then you will know whether it is worth buying the IZ3D license to play games.

WARNING: Playing games in 3D may make you stop playing games in 2D, hehe

Ok now that's out of the way, go to my guide at
http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=5205

Tip for Vizio users, use the Zalman output
everyone else, LG and Toshiba should use Interleaved, Horizontal Optimized.

Shutter display users, if requested I will add supplement notes to run, but I do not have this display to test so I'm I can't help troubleshoot these types of display.
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post #2 of 29 Old 07-17-2011, 09:32 PM
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This may be a noob question... But why is it necessary to purchase 3rd party software to play games in 3d on a 3d native tv? Shouldn't this option be included in the nvidia or ati drivers? Or are they not supporting those options yet? And will future 3d games need this software? Thanks in advance and for the guide. I'm about to pick up a 55lw5600 and am just reading up on what it's going to take to get this working.

Also just curious if you know. Are there even any 3d ps3 games yet? Or will they be more popular in the future?

Thanks again sky

EDIT: I guess the driver thing I was referring to was "NVidia 3DTV Play software." Can't you just set the video card to output to a 3d capable tv through 1.4 hdmi?
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post #3 of 29 Old 07-18-2011, 01:48 AM
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Nvidia 3DTV play does not provide you the best quality on passive displays : it's stuck with hdmi1.4 resolutions (720p when gaming).

Nvidia could provide a native interlaced picture, but they don't want to because they want to promote their own 3D display technology and shutter glasses.
ATI does not provide 3D drivers that convert the games into 3D, they don't have the resources to develop it and even with lots of resources it's still full of bugs and issues that can't be resolved. Their policy then is not to make a 3D conversion driver and let game developers make their games natively 3D. It may be a rough approach but it's what makes the most economical sense and that's what gives the best 3D quality and the best performance.
No matter how many Nvidia 3D Vision ready games have been released in the last two years, the best 3D experience on PC is still Avatar the game (it's a mediocre game but has amazing 3D) and it has been able to drive these passive displays from day 1 natively without any help from Nvidia, ATi, or third party drivers.

Passive 3D, forever !

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post #4 of 29 Old 07-18-2011, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slmhofy View Post

[snip]... Also just curious if you know. Are there even any 3d ps3 games yet? Or will they be more popular in the future?...


there are many PS3 games in 3D, with more on the way.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1322350

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1245864

Also, check the Playstation Store for downloadable 3D games.

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post #5 of 29 Old 07-18-2011, 03:54 PM - Thread Starter
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The drivers power the video cards only render the 3d environment, it doesn't actually send 3d images composed of left and right images to the screen. That's where you need a software approach that takes the z-buffer information and renders two camera to create the 3d depth image. Nvidia uses a closed system approach in that it requires their specified 3d monitor and shutter glasses.

If you buy a passive screen, you remove the need for using shutter glasses and bypass any problems with lcd refresh rates and shutter sync problems. Since the internal tech is now on the tv itself, the only thing you have to watch out for is the viewing angle. So without companies that push stereo 3D like Sony PS3, everyone has to rely on 3d drivers to play games, and at least you can play most games easily in 3D now instead of waiting for the software developer to code the 3D path in games.

Shutter glasses do have technical advantages such as full resolution per eye.
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post #6 of 29 Old 07-19-2011, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slmhofy View Post

This may be a noob question... But why is it necessary to purchase 3rd party software to play games in 3d on a 3d native tv? Shouldn't this option be included in the nvidia or ati drivers?

Because people will pay for it and companies are REQUIRED by law to make a profit for their shareholders. It's really just that simple.

Edit: From what I understand, the full explanation will probably have something to do with accounting rules. It's why Apple used to charge for iOS releases, then one day they said they found a way to account for the revenue without charging.
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post #7 of 29 Old 07-20-2011, 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

The drivers power the video cards only render the 3d environment, it doesn't actually send 3d images composed of left and right images to the screen. That's where you need a software approach that takes the z-buffer information and renders two camera to create the 3d depth image. Nvidia uses a closed system approach in that it requires their specified 3d monitor and shutter glasses.

If you buy a passive screen, you remove the need for using shutter glasses and bypass any problems with lcd refresh rates and shutter sync problems. Since the internal tech is now on the tv itself, the only thing you have to watch out for is the viewing angle. So without companies that push stereo 3D like Sony PS3, everyone has to rely on 3d drivers to play games, and at least you can play most games easily in 3D now instead of waiting for the software developer to code the 3D path in games.

Shutter glasses do have technical advantages such as full resolution per eye.

What kind of PC set up do you have? What is your top resolution/framerate on your passive set? I have the Panny VT30 and building a high-end gaming PC. I was told due to hdmi code restraints my top Res/FPS will be 1080p@ 24 FPS, or 720p@ 60FPS on my active 3d set, sucks... I plan on getting the GTX 590. I thought it was just plug and play for 3d? 590 GPU also supports 3d surround on 3 screens simultaneous via DVI.

3d gaming rocks!!
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post #8 of 29 Old 07-20-2011, 03:57 AM - Thread Starter
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I have a 5870 video card using IZ3D drivers, I can run most outputs on my tv which includes Side by Side, Interleaved, Checkerboard, Frame Sequential, and AMD HD3D 1.4a Frame-packing mode. If I use HD3D, then I can only play at the same resolutions you can. With Interleaved, I can play at 1920x1080 at 60 fps because the bandwidth is really only using 1920x540 pixels due to the FPR layer of the tv and I can play at all resolutions the game runs at by using the IZ3D "scaling" function to upscale all games to native resolution in case I have frame rate problems.

The IZ3D drivers support Nvidia or AMD videocards, only catch is IZ3D does not support SLI or Crossfire and dual cards like the nvidia 590 cards. 580 is ok though.

With the Panasonic tv you have, you can run IZ3D in Side by Side mode but there will be mouse cursor placement problems in those mouse heavy usage games. In that case, the best gameplay wise for you on that tv is Nvidia 3DTV play at 1280x720 at 60 fps.

Yeah, 3D gaming is the next revolution for 3DTVs and its available and working now.
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post #9 of 29 Old 07-20-2011, 07:51 AM
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As you're clearly an advocate for the iZ3d solution, can you provide your viewpoint about iZ3d relative to the Tridef (DDD) software?
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post #10 of 29 Old 07-20-2011, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I will need to buy the Tridef drivers at some point but I've been using the IZ3D drivers for 3 years so its just so easy to use now so that's my reason for using these drivers.

I do know with Tridef demo that I used, it has some really good advantages that will help propel 3D usage to casual computers with the use of Virtual 3D. This mode is great for medium performance video cards because it doesn't take a performance impact compared to rendering two frames at the same time that IZ3D and Nvidia uses but the 3D quality will not be as accurate. This should thereby increase market penetration of 3D awareness into more devices and help grow the 3D market at the same time.

I've seen how Tridef renders each scene of 3D at 3 different viewing frustrums to help manage overseparation of 3d objects and minimize eye strain. The only thing I don't like is having to point games to the Tridef launcher to play games, I don't have to do that with IZ3D. Also I had some problems with Steam and Sonic Racing for Tridef and was never able to get it working in a 3D output except anaglyph. Games that were supported worked fine though. I remember Tridef used to charge users for each game profile but now they do not do that anymore.

IZ3D does not have a separation or depth limit so I can set the 3d as high as I want and it also has profiles that I can switch between if games use sudden depth changes I can accommodate for.

If you are an nvidia user, then you have more options and you can use 3DTV play. Of course, as a AMD user you do have AMD HD3D support but that one I'm still working out problems with it.

One hint I wanted to forward though is the 3D vision drivers supported the Zalman line interleaved monitors at one point so if someone knows how to access these drivers I'm linking to use then you have just opened up 3D vision native drivers without using 3rd party drivers for passive tv users.

Here's the link.
http://www.nvidia.com/object/stereo-...96-driver.html
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post #11 of 29 Old 07-20-2011, 10:58 PM
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Thanks for all the great info SkyGuy. U really know your 3d tech.
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post #12 of 29 Old 07-21-2011, 03:01 AM
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One more question for you Skyguy3d. Since you are pretty knowledgable with computers. I am building my first gaming PC. Which CPU do you think is better for 3d gaming?(or about the same) The i5 2500k 3.3ghz or the i7 2600k 3.4ghz? I've been reading the performance benchmarks for both and some the i7 scored higher and others the i5 higher. I believe the main difference in the two is the i7 has hyperthreading, and only a 0.1ghz increase. But when over-clocked the i5 has been able to get up to 4.9ghz(stable) and the i7 only 4.8. I already purchased the i5 but contemplating exchanging for the i7. Thanks.

Sorry off topic.
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post #13 of 29 Old 07-21-2011, 04:34 PM - Thread Starter
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In 3D, you really want to get the best single video card possible because the card has to render two views at the same time. With both of those 4 cores, it won't matter which one you choose, usually for gaming a faster cpu will be better but .1 will make very little difference, maybe 1 frame advantage in games. Very few games take advantage of all cores, GTA4 is a good example. Just get the best single graphics card becuase that will truly increase your framerate substantially.
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post #14 of 29 Old 07-21-2011, 05:11 PM
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Great. Thanks SkyGuy!
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post #15 of 29 Old 07-21-2011, 05:18 PM
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I tried playing Battlefield: Play4Free in 3d with IZ3d but I get kicked by Punkbuster. I contacted PunkBuster support and got treated like ****. I don´t think it is ever going to work. So just Playstation 3 for 3d gaming and me for now.

edit: scratch that I´m still interested in single player 3d gaming. And even more interested now that I see you have the same graphics card that I have. I thought Radeon 5870 doesn´t have HDMI 1.4 and that it therefore can´t support 3d output to 3dtv. (I was using 3d with cheap red and cyan glasses on my monitor)

But are you saying I can output 3d to 3dtv with this card? That´s surprising. Does any of this apply to tvs with active shutter glasses?

edit: reading all of the thread it seems I would be better off with Nvidia card. Oh well. Thanks for the info anyways!
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post #16 of 29 Old 07-21-2011, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Punkbuster is not good for 3d gaming that's for sure, you can look in the IZ3D forums to see if they can fix that though.

Your videocard is fine for 3d gaming, just depends on what TV you have. The only limitations with Shutter is you cannot ever get maximum resolution with 60fps using frame-packing mode. You can achieve this only with Side by Side, Checkerboard, Line-Interleaved using Tridef or IZ3D drivers. The very strength of shutter glass full resolution HD per eye is also its Achilles heel because it hit its max bandwidth attainable by HDMI 1.4a standards at 24 fps.

Just to be clear, 1280x720 frame-packing mode works at 60 fps.
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post #17 of 29 Old 08-15-2011, 10:22 AM
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Alright skyguy,

I've got another question that I just thought of and think you may be able to help me out. I was planning on getting a Denon AVR 1612 that has 3d passthrough and connecting ps3, computer and maybe hd cable through and running just the one cable to the tv. But am I going to run into a problem with wanting to assign different settings for the ps3/cable/computer while running them all into one input on the back of the tv?

Say if I set your recommended settings for the pc input which has the reduced lag already from LG for playing computer games, but then later want to watch a bluray movie or netflix from the ps3 which should have different settings, is there a button on the remote that will change over the video settings while still in the same hdmi port on the back?

I was going to go this hdmi receiver passthrough route to kill all the cables that I've been wanting to do for a long time.
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post #18 of 29 Old 08-15-2011, 09:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi slmhofy

Seems like an easy solution on this tv. There a 4 to 5 video settings on this tv. Since I am primarily using the Standard video, you could customize the Cinema, Game, and ISF Expert modes for Netflix and PS3 separately and change it on the fly whenever you want while still connected to one HDMI port into the tv. The only factor I can't test is how much latency you lose for input response when you connect through a 1.4a receiver.

Also I need to point out that the mode I used was on the PC label input which disables a lot of video processing and so then you may want that for watching movies or sports so you would need to change the input label to blank to fix this.
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post #19 of 29 Old 08-15-2011, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

Hi slmhofy

Seems like an easy solution on this tv. There a 4 to 5 video settings on this tv. Since I am primarily using the Standard video, you could customize the Cinema, Game, and ISF Expert modes for Netflix and PS3 separately and change it on the fly whenever you want while still connected to one HDMI port into the tv. The only factor I can't test is how much latency you lose for input response when you connect through a 1.4a receiver.

Also I need to point out that the mode I used was on the PC label input which disables a lot of video processing and so then you may want that for watching movies or sports so you would need to change the input label to blank to fix this.

Awesome, just what I was looking for. The ability to change video inputs with just one hdmi port. Appreciate it. I'm sure I'll be back here eventually
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post #20 of 29 Old 10-18-2011, 06:52 AM
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Hello skyguy3d. Since you are very knowledgable in PC and hd 3dtv connections maybe you can help me with my stuttering in PC gaming problem.


A couple games that really push my GPU like Crysis 2, Metro 2033, & Witcher 2 all at max setting, where FPS in 50s, is where I noticed the stuttering problem(because all other games I have keep the FPS locked at 60 with my GTX 590)

(During games running FRAPS to see fps) when my rate during play onscreen is maxed at 60fps everything is smooth as butter during movement. But when framerate drops below 60 I get some bad constant stuttering during movement, very noticeable when panning slowly left or right. Now this happens right below 60FPS, starting at 59 FPS and below I get this stutter effect (with Vsync on). It makes it look like framerate in 20s & teens.

This what it looks like while panning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgM2O...eature=related

I've been working on this problem for weeks and tried everything that anyone can think of. I built a entirely new PC with different brand components and same stutter, tried 3 different GPU (GTX590, amd 6990, GTX560)different monititors and cables. I've updated all drivers and tried adjusting every GPU setting possible.

It feels like a timing issue where the frames are rendered uneven with framerate in the 50s and worse the lower the FPS get. While 60 FPS is perfectly synced with my Panasonic VT30 and monitor tested. Is there anything that you know of on high-end plasma TVs that can be adjusted to help with this stuttering/ timing of frame display? Thanks.



My System
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post #21 of 29 Old 10-18-2011, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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It sounds like a v-synch synchronization problem that I will post here

http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=5272

If you are using any of the frame-packing modes this is usually when I see this problem where the frames that don't stay in sync together and the eyes swap at a fast rate.

On the IZ3D drivers, I used Side by Side instead of the framepacking mode to fix this but I have to ask you this, is it only a problem in 3D or do you have this problem in 2D?

If it's a 2D problem, try enabling triple buffering in the drivers.
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post #22 of 29 Old 10-18-2011, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

It sounds like a v-synch synchronization problem that I will post here

http://forum.iz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=5272

If you are using any of the frame-packing modes this is usually when I see this problem where the frames that don't stay in sync together and the eyes swap at a fast rate.

On the IZ3D drivers, I used Side by Side instead of the framepacking mode to fix this but I have to ask you this, is it only a problem in 3D or do you have this problem in 2D?

If it's a 2D problem, try enabling triple buffering in the drivers.

Thank you for response. Im sorry, I should have stated this was a 2d problem. I'm only able to get 720p in 3d so my FPS have been locked @ 60 with the games I've played so I haven't noticed at stuttering in 3d.

This does feel like a synchronization problem, but unfortunately I get this stuttering when Vsync is disabled also. It is just harder to see the stuttering because there is a lot of screen tearing also when Vsync is off. The stuttering does seem less with Vsync is off and the stuttering starts in the high 40fps and below vs high 50s and below with Vsync enabled.

I'm at work but will try the triple buffeting when I get home. Thanks.
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post #23 of 29 Old 10-21-2011, 02:59 AM
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Sorry been working a lot. So the stuttering problem is the same in 2d and 3d & triple buffering did not help stutter. Smooth at 60fps and stuttering in 50s. Now I tried a different monitor and tested Crysis 2. At first it locked the max framerate @ 50fps. 50fps was perfectly smooth and then when in dips right below in high 40s I get bad stutter. Next I changed the max FPS to 60FPS, and 60=smooth, below 60=stutter. So it seems that the correlation is that I only get smooth gameplay when at max set framerate, if it goes right below it the system has problems and stutters. I've exchanged every PC components of my build except the CPU(i5 2500k). Could the CPU be faulty? It passed Mark3d tests. I've been struggling with this for over a month. Thanks for the help.
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post #24 of 29 Old 10-22-2011, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm not too familiar with those setups but it seems more of a microstutter issue for dual video cards like your 6990 and 590. The 560 unless it was in SLI would not have any microstutter that I know of.

Google that term and see if it helps.
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post #25 of 29 Old 10-22-2011, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skyguy3d View Post

I'm not too familiar with those setups but it seems more of a microstutter issue for dual video cards like your 6990 and 590. The 560 unless it was in SLI would not have any microstutter that I know of.

Google that term and see if it helps.

Yes the 560 had the same stutter also at any framerate below max cap of 60fps. Also the 590 has the stutter when sli disabled so that ruled out microstutter due to SLI. I'm stumped. I guess I'll just exchange out CPU, to rule it out, just in case, I've done everything else I can think of.
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post #26 of 29 Old 10-08-2012, 05:10 AM
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Just ordered a panasonic L55ET5B and will be using it as my main pc monitor.
As the iz3d drivers license is no longer able to be bought what other options do i have for 1080@60fps on my passive screen?

Thanks,

Mark.
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post #27 of 29 Old 10-11-2012, 06:59 AM
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DDD Tridef ignition is the other solution for 3D on PC. Just like iZ3D's solution, it is universal, so it works both with ATI and Nvidia graphics cards.
I switched over to thei solution a few months ago and it works very well. There are some games that work better, some games that work less well, but it's mostly for the better. Indeed since iZ3D hasn't been updated for over a year.

Passive 3D, forever !

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post #28 of 29 Old 10-11-2012, 09:32 AM
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After talking with someone else I think the acer hack and use 3d vision to use interleaved mode is the best way to go.
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post #29 of 29 Old 09-05-2013, 07:08 AM
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i just bought this monitor, have an nvidia 560.

the 3d button already does a pretty good job, but im guessing its not real 3d when playing games.

the nvidia site says i need a 120hz screen. but this one only goes to 60hz in the settings.

am i just stuck with the fake 3d?

edit: no worries all fixed. nvidia 3d vision works fine. monitor drivers make movies work with potplayer
AlekseyV is offline  
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