Sony HMZ-T1 HMD Owner's dedicated thread - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillymonster View Post

Thanks for this information. I have it set at 50 percent and have always used the Stereoscopic Player to set the depth as much as I like. I also set the depth to the max on PowerDVD (which is much better than the included WINDVD in my opinion). But I set it to 100 and I'll see if I notice any difference.

That setting only effect games BTW, and does nothing for movies. Power DVD does have a slider for 3D depth. Make sure to put it all the way to the right.
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post #362 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillymonster View Post

I can guarantee you the "pop" isn't as good as it is on the Vaio F 3D. I have taken 3D videos with different 3D cameras. In the videos, I am holding a knife to the lens. When watching it through the Vaio F or even the EVO 3D, I am downright frightened! With the HMZ-T1, the knife looks clearer and doesn't give me as much of a headache. It's coming right at me, but not killing me as it is on the other devices.

That said, the 3D depth on the HMZ-T1, as well as the overall 3D experience, easily outdoes any device I have used.

I don't know why that made me LOL for like 5 minutes. Just seeing you filming a Knife like that and just watching it over and over frightened of being stabbed. Hopefully your not to traumatized
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post #363 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I was just about to suggest a lens pen. My guess is that there's the potential for liquid cleaners to get inside the HMD, which would probably be very bad.

Yeah, I couldn't figure out if the no liquid instruction was to avoid stripping away a special coating (if there is any), or as you mentioned, potential 'leakage' into the device.
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post #364 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 08:44 PM
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I thought DJ88 had a very good explanation of 3D a few pages back, but now I'm confuse as to how one display can appear to have more "pop" than another.

Can anyone help me undo my confusion
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post #365 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by axdenied View Post

Besides Coraline and Beauty and the Beast, which 3D movies would you recommend to watch on the HMD ?

Also, from reading the thread I understand that the PS3 isn't the best device to watch 3D Blu-rays with the HMZ-T1. Unless I'm wrong.

If not, anyone has a blu-ray drive to recommend for a PC ?

I don't have a blu-ray drive for my PC but LiteOn has always been a reliable brand for me.

I thought 3D is only dumbed down (by default) in games and not movie playback, can anyone confirm? Seems like Sony is doing a huge disservice to 3D film fans if they dumb down 3D settings in their playback software.
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post #366 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 09:01 PM
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Sorry for the multiple posts, but for anyone who's heard great things about the TV series "Firefly" but have not had the chance to watch it (like me...which I will be watching on the HMD when it arrives ), Amazon is selling the complete series on blu-ray for $19.
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post #367 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudVII View Post

Sorry for the multiple posts, but for anyone who's heard great things about the TV series "Firefly" but have not had the chance to watch it (like me...which I will be watching on the HMD when it arrives ), Amazon is selling the complete series on blu-ray for $19.

And you can eat some ice cream while watching it, Cub Foods has buy one get one free on Eddy's.
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post #368 of 3382 Old 11-13-2011, 10:44 PM
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+1 for firefly. Best show that ever got cancelled before the first season ended. BUY IT.
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post #369 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 12:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillymonster View Post

With the HMZ-T1, the knife looks clearer and doesn't give me as much of a headache. It's coming right at me, but not killing me as it is on the other devices.

How far away does the knife appear to be ?

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post #370 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 12:52 AM
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Seeing how youtube lets you upload 3D now, do you mind uploading that video with the knife for us?
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post #371 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I don't know why that made me LOL for like 5 minutes. Just seeing you filming a Knife like that and just watching it over and over frightened of being stabbed. Hopefully your not to traumatized

As was mentioned earlier there is nothing about the display panels themselves that can affect pop. Each eye receives the image as prescribed on the disc. With zero ghosting, this is even more true!

However, there is an element that I think may be overlooked here. Let's imagine you are in a large IMAX theatre. The screen occupys almost your entire vision. Additionally, there is still a large distance between you and the screen. Let's say you are sitting 40 feet away from the screen. That means when an object pops out it can pop-out 1 foot, or 40 foot. There is a huge range that the object can be placed within. Now lets think of a TV at home. It doesn't occupy as much of your peripheral vision and there is only 10 feet distance. This means that an object that would have come out 20 feet on the IMAX screen, now only comes out 5 feet. If you go right up to the TV so that it occupies the same relative amount of your peripheral vision as the IMAX, perhaps that same object now only pops out 2 feet. I have tried these experiments and believe me there is something about the relative distances and your brains ability to still comprehend "true" distance vs "virtual" distances that affects popout considerably. Now as the HMZ-T1 is an "optical illusion" I am wondering if something along these lines is affecting the experience. If so, then I don't believe it to be curable but an intrinsic limitation of such devices.
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post #372 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 02:26 AM
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I think you could be right Jon. There are a bunch of people saying that 3D effect shouldn't be intrinsic to the screens but I have played with these twice and agree that the 3D is flatter than some other solutions I've seen. I'd imagine 'virtual' screen size, the real distance from the screens and the optics would play a large part in this.

The 3D was still good enough for me to want to buy one though, and that is without playing any PC games on it.
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post #373 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 02:44 AM
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I was thinking along the same lines. Basically, people who talk about an amazing amount of pop from their current setup (sans HMZ-T1) are talking about 40-150" setups which they are only sitting 4-6' away from. The HMZ-T1 is meant to be akin to being in the middle of a small movie theatre - effectively much further away. While it may fill a similar amount of your vision, your focusing distance is much further away and thus the pop will be from that further distance.

i.e.
Effective Viewing Distance
YOU -------------<<<<<<<<<<<< LCD DISPLAY WITH "POP"
YOU --------------------------------<<<<<<<<<<<< HMZ-T1

<<<< = where the external 3d or "pop" reaches relative to your vision

So they are displaying the same amount of 3D, but the perceived level of 3D may be lower due to the greater distance that you are focusing.
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post #374 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CloudVII View Post

I don't have a blu-ray drive for my PC but LiteOn has always been a reliable brand for me.

I thought 3D is only dumbed down (by default) in games and not movie playback, can anyone confirm? Seems like Sony is doing a huge disservice to 3D film fans if they dumb down 3D settings in their playback software.

Could be because they don't want people with LCDs (which Sony sells) or plasma 3DTVs complaining about crosstalk. This is why the PS3 games are so tame. Because the stronger you set things, the more you reveal the limitations of LCD and plasma when it comes to 3D crosstalk.
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post #375 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul33993 View Post

Could be because they don't want people with LCDs (which Sony sells) or plasma 3DTVs complaining about crosstalk. This is why the PS3 games are so tame. Because the stronger you set things, the more you reveal the limitations of LCD and plasma when it comes to 3D crosstalk.


Ghosting will appear equally with strong depth or strong popout. You are right that TVs will show more ghosting with increased 3D effect. However I honestly don't think they are intentionally dumbing down. Newer TVs are already getting closer to the point where it becomes a non-issue.

Movie directors have intentionally opted NOT to use much popout as it is seen as a gimmick and detracts from the intention of the film. Instead the use of 3D is to add depth almost at a sub-conscious level where you have to close one eye and re-open it before you realise just how good a difference it makes. More gimmicky films, primarily aimed at kids, such as Spy Kids 4 might use more popout effects. Additionally IMAX films use strong popout and depth to increase immersion. These films are normally limited in run-time as it can cause headaches for some people with continued watching. So the recommendations above to test with titles such as "Under the sea" are absolutely spot-on for a greater perceived 3D effect.
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post #376 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Ghosting will appear equally with strong depth or strong popout. You are right that TVs will show more ghosting with increased 3D effect. However I honestly don't think they are intentionally dumbing down. Newer TVs are already getting closer to the point where it becomes a non-issue.

Movie directors have intentionally opted NOT to use much popout as it is seen as a gimmick and detracts from the intention of the film. Instead the use of 3D is to add depth almost at a sub-conscious level where you have to close one eye and re-open it before you realise just how good a difference it makes. More gimmicky films, primarily aimed at kids, such as Spy Kids 4 might use more popout effects. Additionally IMAX films use strong popout and depth to increase immersion. These films are normally limited in run-time as it can cause headaches for some people with continued watching. So the recommendations above to test with titles such as "Under the sea" are absolutely spot-on for a greater perceived 3D effect.

Good posts, but I think this is revealing of an issue here.

Pop out, or negative parallax, is being used in this thread as a sort of metric of quality. At least one person considered returning the HMZ-T1 due to perceived lack of negative parallax. This is the entirely wrong way to judge!

I have been advocating the quality of the 3D experience based on positive parallax, or depth, as a metric. The 3D is truly expansive in the positive parallax range; citing games such as Wipeout and Resistance for their immersive 3D. As has been stated quite a number of times, source material -- including games -- makes a far greater use of positive parallax, and the HMZ-T1 shines in this regard. Also, studies show that negative parallax is fatigueing; almost every article I read on 3D parallax noted the issue of fatigue, particularly -- as you point out -- in long-run movies.

And you are also right that modern filmmakers primarily use 3D for depth to create immersion. In the past attempts at 3D (the '50s and the '80s), negative parallax -- or "pop" as it's called in this thread -- was the standard technique. And what happened? Both times, 3D failed (and they used similar polarized 3D technology as today, even in the '50s!). People didn't want to pay for pop!

So with all these things going against negative parallax ("pop") -- including the complete failure of 3D as a medium in the '50s and '80s! -- why is pop the only metric we're using for judging 3D? It shouldn't be! The immersive aspects of GT5 or Resistance or Avatar or Monsters vs. Aliens all rely on positive parallax -- or depth. And the HMZ-T1 reproduces this depth better than any 3D I've seen. One poster called it "discrete 3D." and for me that's the perfect description of the HMZ-T1 3D experience!

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post #377 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by axdenied View Post

Also, from reading the thread I understand that the PS3 isn't the best device to watch 3D Blu-rays with the HMZ-T1. Unless I'm wrong.

Do you have a citation for that? I didn't get this impression at all! Not even a hint.

The only thing mentioned is that the screen size setting seems to affect 3D. But this is similar to the slider in Power DVD.

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post #378 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EatingPie View Post

Do you have a citation for that? I didn't get this impression at all! Not even a hint.

The only thing mentioned is that the screen size setting seems to affect 3D. But this is similar to the slider in Power DVD.

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Ideally you want to set the screen size on the PS3 such that it does NOT mangle the 3D in any way. I can't recall the default (100 inches?) but there will be a value that does not "shift" the images right/left to compensate for screensize. This can result in reduced image quality due to scaling, or cropping, depending on the implementation.
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post #379 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 07:34 AM
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Do any UK users know anywhere that has a demo unit? I just spoke to the Tottenham Court Road Sony Centre and they're not expecting a demo unit until the end of the month.
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post #380 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spanky Deluxe View Post

Do any UK users know anywhere that has a demo unit? I just spoke to the Tottenham Court Road Sony Centre and they're not expecting a demo unit until the end of the month.

Try Harrods
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post #381 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 07:47 AM
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Default is 40 inches
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post #382 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spybreaka View Post

I was thinking along the same lines. Basically, people who talk about an amazing amount of pop from their current setup (sans HMZ-T1) are talking about 40-150" setups which they are only sitting 4-6' away from. The HMZ-T1 is meant to be akin to being in the middle of a small movie theatre - effectively much further away. While it may fill a similar amount of your vision, your focusing distance is much further away and thus the pop will be from that further distance.

i.e.
Effective Viewing Distance
YOU -------------<<<<<<<<<<<< LCD DISPLAY WITH "POP"
YOU --------------------------------<<<<<<<<<<<< HMZ-T1

<<<< = where the external 3d or "pop" reaches relative to your vision

So they are displaying the same amount of 3D, but the perceived level of 3D may be lower due to the greater distance that you are focusing.

This might be right if the hmz was equivalent to sitting that far away from the screen but my measurements show it equivalent to sitting 7 ft away from my 82 inch Mitsubishi vs the 10 ft I normaly sit. (pretty much equivalent to the 90 inches 45 degree fov that nvidia tests it at). That is the opposite to your example. I see effectively the same pop on both devices with the same depth and convergnce settings for material that has good pop.

Furthermore, at least with pc games, you could increase convergence/pop out to make the arrows in your example equivalent. With Blueray and other devices with less control I expect the screen size setting may be the only way to equalize the arrows.

You can't put your hand out and touch it like you can w a screen but it's looks like equivalent pop to me. Optical illusions may play a part In people's perception. No screen edge, no references like being able to put your hand out (mentally or actually) to touch the knife coming out to you.

That said, I wish too as mentioned below, that pop was not the end all, be all for 3d discussions.
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post #383 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillymonster View Post

I also set the depth to the max on PowerDVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

Power DVD does have a slider for 3D depth. Make sure to put it all the way to the right.

Never found a 3D depth control in Power DVD for the "CyberLink PowerDVD 11" software.

Edit: Under the title: 3D scene depth (TrueTheater 3D), there is one but it's when in TrueTheater 3D mode [that in itself confuses me *(see note)], which can't be done with NVIDIA video mode, and also it says it is for watching "2D media in 3D ...... "3D scene depth to help your eyes."

*Note:
Enable hardware acceleration (NVIDIA(R) Pure Video(R)
When hardware acceleration for video decoding is enabled, TrueTheater is not available.

Could somebody please show me where I can find a 3D depth control for media that doesn't need conversion from 2D and using NVIDIA acceleration?

Much appreciated,

Paul
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post #384 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 08:38 AM
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Anyone play a FPS or TPS on this yet? how does it play? I get mine tomorrow so I will add to the reviews!
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post #385 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EatingPie View Post




In the past attempts at 3D (the '50s and the '80s), negative parallax -- or "pop" as it's called in this thread -- was the standard technique. And what happened? Both times, 3D failed (and they used similar polarized 3D technology as today, even in the '50s!). People didn't want to pay for pop!

So with all these things going against negative parallax ("pop") -- including the complete failure of 3D as a medium in the '50s and '80s! -- why is pop the only metric we're using for judging 3D? It shouldn't be!

-Pie

That may be but "3D Prison Girls" was a hoot.

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post #386 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 09:02 AM
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Re: The 3D setting is defaulted @ 15% and must be changed manually to "100% Max"
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Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

That setting only effect games BTW, and does nothing for movies.

Can you provide a source to how you know this?

Thanks
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post #387 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 09:43 AM
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I think there is quite a many people who have planned to buy these from somewhere else they live themselves. So I`m suprised anybody haven't answered to my question. It would be nice for pricing too, if instead of 900 you could get it for 550 or what do you think guys, you, who live in Europe? I think my question is very relevant and really hope that somebody maybe could give us some information. My question was: Because japanese 120V 50/60hz unit worked fine in european 230V / 50Hz power outlet could it be possible that despite of different models they all have the same autoadjustable 100-240V 50/60hz power supply?

Many thanks for advises,

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post #388 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

Let's say you are sitting 40 feet away from the screen. That means when an object pops out it can pop-out 1 foot, or 40 foot. There is a huge range that the object can be placed within. Now lets think of a TV at home. It doesn't occupy as much of your peripheral vision and there is only 10 feet distance. This means that an object that would have come out 20 feet on the IMAX screen, now only comes out 5 feet.

I don't think this is correct.

In an Imax theatre while the screen is large & the distance large - the objects are also equally large. So a knife that comes out 5' when watching from 10' away will seem to come out 20' when watching on IMAX 40' away - as long as the FOV is the same.

Since FOV of HMZ is larger than many watching 3D at home - it should give a better immersive effect than small TVs at home (equivalent to watching a 10' wide screen from 10' at home).

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post #389 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lorenzow View Post

That may be but "3D Prison Girls" was a hoot.

Lots. Of. Pop!



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post #390 of 3382 Old 11-14-2011, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EatingPie View Post

I have been advocating the quality of the 3D experience based on positive parallax, or depth, as a metric.

Again - like many of the 3D critics - you are confusing issues.

A good 3D display should handle both +ve & -ve parallax. Just like a good stereo should be able to place objects on the sound stage both behind and infront of the speaker plane.

How that -ve parallax is used, is a different question. While cheap "pop" out thrills are one way to use it - the other way is to make the experiance truly immersive - like I said earlier - showing sand on the beach or water in the sea stretch from right before your eyes until the horizon. In real life you don't have emptyness all around you for 20 ft and then stuff suddenly appears.

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