Am I seeing crosstalk / ghosting? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I just got my first 3d hdtv - Sony BRAVIA KDL46EX720 - 46". Well the first night I watched Captain America in 3d and it looked great I couldn't notice any problems. Then yesterday I changed the settings in my room since at first the hdtv was in the corner of the room, so I changed everything in my room and now the hdtv is infront of the wall directly infront / center to the seating area about 7-8 ft. away. The tv is a little bit lower to the floor since I changed the entertainment center it's on but, it's at eye level from the seating area.

Well since last night I was trying to watch Pirhanna in 3d and it looked like I couldn't focus on the 3d there is some blurryness around the images, it feels like I'm cross-eyed. It got to the point where I turned it off since I couldn't watch it, was giving me a headache and frustrating me, kept trying to blink thinking it's my focus. I thought maybe the glasses aren't fully charged, so I put them on charge and just now put on Transformers 3d and the blurryness is still there, I tried to adjust some settings like sharpness, edge, motion flow, depth and nothing really seems to make a difference, I think adjusting the depth from 0 to -2 or -1 seemed to help a bit but, not much so I just reset it back to default settings.

What could it be? How come it was working fine just the other day and not anymore? Am I seeing cross-talk / ghosting? When characters move I don't see there image after they move but, I see a constant blurryness around the edge of everything, text, pictures, again the best way to explain it is like if I was cross-eyed and can't focus.
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post #2 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it might be my eyes since this time I was adjusting the depth on all the settings for a bit, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2 this time in the negative it was getting worst and on +2 it didn't seem too bad but, I still saw the lines/blurryness outside of the images/characters, and then after a bit I put it back to 0 and the blurryness around the images/characters went away. Before it would get blurry on the depthness it seemed like when there was 3d images, it felt like I couldn't see the 3d properly.

I'm not sure if this is for sure an issue but, I know for sure I paid close attention and there was no blurryness at all around the images, I looked at the heads of the characters and it was sharp, not blurry.

So, if it is my eyes that need to adjust to it, is there a 3D disc or something I can watch that can help calibrate or get my eyes used to the 3d before I start watching a 3d movie?

I don't know how come I didn't have this issue the first time but, I am having this issue now.
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post #3 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 02:33 PM
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FYI: BD 3D = Bluray 3D official spec anywhere I write it below.

BD 3D comes with both eye views already hard-coded and you need to see them as they are with no corrections.

You never need to adjust depth settings [distance between the L & R images] or change them to anything other than 0 unless you are having the TV convert a regular 2D movie to 3D by generating the other eye view.

Also, FYI, the other case where you can get a serious headache when watching BD 3D [and you have changed no settings on your TV] is where you are watching a BD 3D movie where the left eye is NOT being sent first and instead, its sending the right-eye first.
You can always tell when this is happening by looking through your glasses after flipping them L --> R and you see a 3D image properly rendered.
The solution is to reverse the sync on the glasses for that movie.
The most famous instance of this is the movie Rio.

You might want to do some in-depth reading on how BluRay 3D is implemented so you can answer these q's yourself otherwise you will always be blindly following people's advice.

I read a lot and once you understand the principle of how it works, no snake oil or other bad advice will detract you from making mistakes.

I dont mean the above in any negative sense, just trying to help a fellow human being and this applies to anything technical.
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post #4 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 02:42 PM - Thread Starter
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ok thanks for the info, can you tell me where I can find info on how to to "reverse the sync on the glasses" ? from a quick google search it seems that it's supposed to be a setting on the tv? the thing is that i don't think i have that on my sony bravia - KDL46EX720 hdtv, so what can I do?
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post #5 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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i just spoke with sony support they said there are no syncing options available in the tv, so what do I do now? I have to return the tv and get one that does have it? the only reason I bought it was for 3d, since I already had a decent regular hdtv
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post #6 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 04:11 PM
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If you bought if for 3D and can return it, I would. The Sony EX720 series is notorious for having very poor 3D performance; almost every review I've read commented on how bad it is. Many other Sony 3D sets have good 3D, but I think maybe not as good as some other brands.

If you want an LED set that is virtually crosstalk free, check out a passive set (LG, Vizio, Toshiba, Panasonic all make them now). Or, look at plasmas or even DLP.
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post #7 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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It was actually difficult for me to make the decision between passive and active but, I had read something about the passive ones "leaking" picture that's not 1080p or something and went with active instead. I should have gone to the store and viewed them before making a decision like this, just took my chances I guess. Even though I had found deals on the LG costing less than the Sony. Actually I'll probably not be able return it or it will be too costly and a hassle since I bought it online (amazon) will probably have to sell it locally then buy another one.
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post #8 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 04:20 PM - Thread Starter
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The thing is that without the blurryness / cross-eyed effect, I was really impressed and satisfied with the 3d picture when I first saw Captain America 3d. Actually even now earlier when I was watching transformers after I got it working it was looking good but, if it can get any better I'm definately interested in that, anyway after seeing the 3d on the 46" I want a bigger hdtv like a 55" or 60ish it makes me want to see a bigger picture so this is a good opportunity for me to sell this one and get the bigger one that I want.

So passive is really the way to go? Actually I probably should just go to the store and see for myself.
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post #9 of 14 Old 05-01-2012, 04:46 PM
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If you want the best possible 1080 3d picture then check out active DLP..and yes you heard right passive 3d is not 1080 it's 540 this doesn't bother some people if you sit back far enough from it.
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post #10 of 14 Old 05-03-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post

If you bought if for 3D and can return it, I would. The Sony EX720 series is notorious for having very poor 3D performance; almost every review I've read commented on how bad it is. Many other Sony 3D sets have good 3D, but I think maybe not as good as some other brands.

If you want an LED set that is virtually crosstalk free, check out a passive set (LG, Vizio, Toshiba, Panasonic all make them now). Or, look at plasmas or even DLP.


...True, I had a 40EX720 a couple of months ago and returned it cause the 3D is terrible. The tv's refresh rate is too low causing the crosstalk issue. Look it up and you will see that Sony has refused to do anything about it. Sad, cause for 2D it's really a nice series but for 3D, BEWARE!
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post #11 of 14 Old 05-03-2012, 06:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ingramba View Post

...True, I had a 40EX720 a couple of months ago and returned it cause the 3D is terrible. The tv's refresh rate is too low causing the crosstalk issue. Look it up and you will see that Sony has refused to do anything about it. Sad, cause for 2D it's really a nice series but for 3D, BEWARE!

Is that what I'm seeing it's called crosstalk? It's still happening but now it's not as bad as it was for some reason but, not as good as it seems it should be like it seemed the first time I saw Captian America 3d. Now, what happens is that I see the depth in 3d fine but, when the 3d has that effect that it's "coming at you" like snowing, or paper flying around or whatever etc. then all of a sudden I lose focus. I can't tell if it's just my eyes that can't focus on the 3d or if it's the tv itself. I'm going to hopefully go to the store next week and compare to see if it's just me or if I can find a tv with good 3d.

What are the downsides of plasma, is it only the burn-in issue? The thing is that it seems that I could get an even bigger size plasma hdtv for about the same price (actually even less if I look for a deal) that I got this sony led and a LED in a 55" size can cost about double or more than a plasma. So, I'm thinking to go that route but, I'll have to go the store to compare. I don't play video games so burn-in shouldn't be an issue and I just bought a 21" monitor for my desk and I have slingbox which I watch day time tv on, I decided to keep the 3d hdtv only for evening or movies so that I don't overuse it and burn something out, so trying to limit the use to moderate and so if I'm able to do that, I'm thinking I might be ok with plasma, plus I'm fine with updating my tv every few years I'm not really the type of person to keep it for 10 years or thinking it needs to last me that long, I usually like to upgrade and stay up to date with tech so I think it might last enough for me, plus again if I'm paying half price than a LED then even if it lasts me half as long is fine with me.
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post #12 of 14 Old 05-04-2012, 05:01 PM - Thread Starter
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well I went to the store today to see the hdtv's and I think it is my eyes since I noticed the same thing on their hdtv's and I saw two different ones, panasonic and lg, they had a sony and samsung but, I already have a sony so didn't need to check it and the samsung wasn't working.

i believe with the lg (passive) it was a little less but, it was still there I don't have problem seeing depth but, when the 3d is supposed to "come at you" or look like it's coming out of the screen is when my eyes lose focus I don't know maybe I'm new to it (even though it didn't happen the first time I saw a 3d movie) that I guess my eyes/brain can't tell what to focus on when the 3d happens and maybe my brain gets confused lol that's the reason I start feeling like I'm cross eyed.

The only thing is that I've never liked the picture on an LG, we have 2 LG's here (non-3d) and I don't know why the image looks a little more pixelated or something to me, all the other hdtv's look like they have a cleaner image than LG to me.

also I couldn't really notice much difference in picture quality from brand to brand (except LG) or even LCD, LED and plasma, only thing I noticed was that LED/LCD seems to have a brighter image than plasma. Plasma seemed a little darker, I thought it might be the tv settings at best buy but, then I went to target also and noticed the same thing, maybe they have it at default settings and don't have brightness turned up, I'm not sure would have to research it to see if other people are saying the same thing.

So, I guess unfortunately I can't watch 3d i'm convinced it's my eyes, I kept trying to stand in different positions to the LG and try to to see it correctly without getting "cross-eyed" when the 3d comes out but, I just couldn't get it. If it happens slowly I seem to adjust but, if it's fast or even normal movement is when I notice it.

Only thing I would say about the LG is that the glasses were much more comfortable since I guess because they're passive (not powered) they're lighter and easier to keep on for long periods of time, the sony active ones I have now start to kind of hurt my nose after a while have to keep adjusting them. If I can find a Toshiba passive 3d somewhere on display I'd like to see that, maybe if the picture is better than the LG then I might consider that for 3d, I'm going to try to see what happens if I watch 3d once in a while if I'll be able to watch it like I was able to when I saw it the first time with Captain America.

This is off topic but, I was wondering instead of making glasses can they not make a screen with the same material that you could put infront of your tv at a certain distance to see the 3d then you wouldn't need to wear these glasses?
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post #13 of 14 Old 05-04-2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abcd426 View Post

i believe with the lg (passive) it was a little less but, it was still there I don't have problem seeing depth but, when the 3d is supposed to "come at you" or look like it's coming out of the screen is when my eyes lose focus

That's not crosstalk, and yes, that is the sort of thing your eyes will at least partially learn to cope with after practice. Crosstalk is when you actually see ghost images because light is leaking -- crosstalk will be visible even with one eye closed, the effect you speak of won't happen with one eye closed.

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I guess my eyes/brain can't tell what to focus on when the 3d happens and maybe my brain gets confused lol that's the reason I start feeling like I'm cross eyed.

That is is it in a nutshell. Except... you feel cross-eyed because you are. Practice allows you to not feel cross-eyed, and to learn not to try to change your eye focus trying to track a pop-out. Adjusting the "3D viewpoint" can optimize comfort-versus-popout by changing how far away the whole scene feels (unlike depth which changes how deep the image in, but can only be used on generated content like 2d->3D or games). You will need to adjust 3D viewpoint when you rearrange the living room in a way that moves how far away you are from the screen, or when you "level up" and can handle more pop-out.

Quote:


This is off topic but, I was wondering instead of making glasses can they not make a screen with the same material that you could put infront of your tv at a certain distance to see the 3d then you wouldn't need to wear these glasses?

There are lenticular based screens, but you have to keep your head really still, even more than with the glasses, and there are only a certain number of seating spots.
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post #14 of 14 Old 05-04-2012, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that, at least there's an explanation I started feeling like maybe it's just me lol it's strange that I didn't notice this the first time I saw a 3d movie, I guess it could be since it was my first time to experience it so I wasn't that much focused on the popouts and what-not like I am now. I think that probably does happen to me that my eyes are trying to track the pop-out.

About the 3d viewpoint, I wasn't exactly sure what you meant, you mean to just change the settings around and find different seating postions? I do try that, I've already changed the setting again in my room so that the tv is farther away, sometimes I'll try sitting up, sometimes on the floor, I even tried almost laying down, standing to the side, trying everything I can. The one thing is that when I saw the first 3d movie where I didn't have any problems it was on an entertainment rack that's a little higher than what it's on now but, it's at eye level to the seating area, should it be higher up and at an angle? I'm thinking to get it installed on the wall. I wonder if that would help.

EDIT: just googled "3d viewpoint" real quick, it looks like it's a setting on LG hdtv's? well my sony doesn't have that. so maybe i should get an LG then if they are the only ones that have it? i wonder if panasonics have them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zkidz View Post

That's not crosstalk, and yes, that is the sort of thing your eyes will at least partially learn to cope with after practice. Crosstalk is when you actually see ghost images because light is leaking -- crosstalk will be visible even with one eye closed, the effect you speak of won't happen with one eye closed.



That is is it in a nutshell. Except... you feel cross-eyed because you are. Practice allows you to not feel cross-eyed, and to learn not to try to change your eye focus trying to track a pop-out. Adjusting the "3D viewpoint" can optimize comfort-versus-popout by changing how far away the whole scene feels (unlike depth which changes how deep the image in, but can only be used on generated content like 2d->3D or games). You will need to adjust 3D viewpoint when you rearrange the living room in a way that moves how far away you are from the screen, or when you "level up" and can handle more pop-out.



There are lenticular based screens, but you have to keep your head really still, even more than with the glasses, and there are only a certain number of seating spots.

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