Keep 3D active or make switch to Passive 3D TV - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 04:32 PM
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So, you must not want what you don't have?

You'd rather not think about it because you'd have to back up much of what you've said. How about trying it as a thought experiment, the merits, or demerits of a 4k passive 3D TV, when the price comes down and they're affordable? You're practicing intellectual dishonesty by avoiding it.

Many many people, both current passive and current active owners, want 4k 3D TVs, because of all the limitations with current passive 3D TVs we've been discussing here.
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post #272 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 04:36 PM
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Sure, you can keep doing that. You can sit your tv anywhere you want. It's your tv, knock yourself out. It's hilarious though, you're complaining about the results you get from it when you're not even using it properly.
No, what's hilarious is your recital of a manual from a company who publishes conflicting advice on viewing distances on their website. And THX recommendations are based on a calculation that adapts to your screen size and living space. The end result should always be a 36 degree viewing angle if you want an experience optimized for peripheral immersion, especially important with 3D content.
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I'm pretty sure someday you'll set up an awesome surround system, with speakers hung on the walls (even behind your seat) and you'll laugh at all of this.
Oh, I'll set up a surround sound system one day. But I'll also get a larger screen that supports 4K so that I can again enjoy my movie content regardless of dimensionality at a THX-approved viewing distance with acceptable clarity.

I'm using my TV wrong according to you. Great. Millions of us must be, or else we wouldn't be complaining about aliasing on passive FPR. I'll also let you in on a secret. I don't take 15 minute breaks every hour. I know, it's a shame. I don't deserve to own this TV. Would anyone be gracious enough to take it off my hands?

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post #273 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Airion View Post

So, you must not want what you don't have?

You'd rather not think about it because you'd have to back up much of what you've said. How about trying it as a thought experiment, the merits, or demerits of a 4k passive 3D TV, when the price comes down and they're affordable? You're practicing intellectual dishonesty by avoiding it.

Many many people, both current passive and current active owners, want 4k 3D TVs, because of all the limitations with current passive 3D TVs we've been discussing here.
You're, way, way off. Of course I'll be interested in a 4k tv someday (as I said, when they come down in price). That has absolutely nothing to do with current passive tvs being as good as current active tvs.
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post #274 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 05:01 PM
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You're, way, way off. Of course I'll be interested in a 4k tv someday (as I said, when they come down in price). That has absolutely nothing to do with current passive tvs being as good as current active tvs.
Will you ever want a bigger screen than 55"? Better not, or else according to LG you'll have to sit back further. You wouldn't want to misuse your TV.

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post #275 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 05:06 PM
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You're, way, way off. Of course I'll be interested in a 4k tv someday (as I said, when they come down in price). That has absolutely nothing to do with current passive tvs being as good as current active tvs.
Will you ever want a bigger screen than 55"? Better not, or else according to LG you'll have to sit back further.
You're so stuck in that LG recommendation. Tell you what, I'll put my tv where I want it. If I have issues with it, then I'll look at where the manufacturer said to put it.

It's so funny you think you're being clever with your "burns" about manufacturer recommendations. I'm laughing at you the whole time, because we both know it would actually work right if you did listen to the experts in this case.
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post #276 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 05:41 PM
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Of course I'll be interested in a 4k tv someday

And why will you be interested, if your current TV is flawless?
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post #277 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 05:56 PM
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Of course I'll be interested in a 4k tv someday

And why will you be interested, if your current TV is flawless?
Well apparently your reading comprehension isn't flawless, because I never said my tv was flawless. I said my tv is just as good as an active.
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post #278 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:27 PM
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Boy the ego on you....
So you think that was entirely directed at you, and I haven't been discussing anything in this thread with anyone else?
Look, if you want to use your tv as a computer monitor, don't act like the tv is flawed because it wasn't meant to be used that way.
You lecture me about being ignorant and saying I don't belong in this forum (because I'm not using my tv as a computer monitor) and then you go on to admit what I already knew: you don't have a surround sound setup.
Don't tell me about duplicating the theater experience or how I don't know anything about it until you setup a surround system. Because when you do, your 4 feet away from the tv is probably not going to work very well.
I've had a surround system for years, which means I haven't been sitting as close as you for years now. And my tv looks just fine at the distance I sit at.
I also attempt to recreate the theater experience, that's why I'm here, that's why I have surround sound, and that's why I have a 3d tv. Just because I don't do it the same way as you doesn't mean I'm not into the home theater experience or I don't belong on this site. I just have more space (apparently), surround speakers hung on the walls, and a bigger screen.

I'm curious what your surround sound system is dictating in terms of seating distance... I had a hefty surround setup when I was a projector (it's in boxes now due to a move) and I was 6-8 feet from a 110 inch screen... with proper delay and gain control on each speaker I never had a problem with my surround... and imagine I could have moved closer and still adjusted apporpriately...

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post #279 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:32 PM
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I contacted LG. I told them I sit 5 feet away, but they recommended I sit 6.5 feet away. The ONLY reason that insisted this was because they claimed I would be seeing distorted 3D. I explained that while the 3D does look relatively flat at DEFAULT settings from 5 feet away, it looks great with a viewpoint setting tweak (a convergence adjustment that simulates pushing the image further back). After a little "nuh-uh" "yuh-huh" bs, the rep left the chat.

Anabel: Hello **** ****. Welcome to LG Electronics U.S.A. Support only. How may I provide you with excellent service today?
**** ****: is it ok to watch 3D content on my 42 inch TV from 5 feet away?
Anabel: Let me see what I can do to assist you with this.
Anabel: I would like to please place you on a brief hold while I research that for you, will that be alright?
**** ****: sure
Anabel: thanks
Anabel: No, the minimum should be 6.5 ft to 32.8 ft
**** ****: is it different for 2D content?
Anabel: yes because you need some space to be able to have a better perception of the 3D
**** ****: the reason i ask is because i've had no problem at 5 feet watching 2D Blu-rays in the past, but when I watch 3D content I can notice a drop in resolution, and I have to sit about 7 feet away to make it tolerable.
Anabel: yes, the 3D has a lower resolution
Anabel: and you need to have more space than watching 2D
**** ****: for depth perception, i know about how depth can flatten as you sit closer but I've had success adjusting the depth slider.
**** ****: i know it doesn't increase the strength, but it can simulate sitting further away from a larger TV
Anabel: you need to sit further away to have a better picture, also you need to place the tv in a dark room
**** ****: for what it's worth, i've had no qualms about the depth when sitting 5 feet from my TV- it's just the resolution that bothers me that close.
Anabel: yes, you shouldn't sit so close
Anabel: is not the same
Anabel: and we do not suggest it, it wont have the same effect
**** ****: the sense of depth looks great to my eyes from 5 feet
Anabel: yes but the picture wont look the same
**** ****: could you be more specific about the picture?
Anabel: that's the recommended setting, at least 6 ft away
Anabel: if you sit closer you wont be able to see the picture correctly
**** ****: i heard that, but i was wondering what specifically about the picture "won't look the same."
**** ****: what do you mean by "the picture?"
Anabel: it might look distorted
Anabel: what ever you have in 3D
**** ****: the dimensionality, you mean? it doesn't when i compensate by adjusting the viewpoint on the tv menu
Anabel: the image might look distorted
Notice: Anabel has exited the chat session.
**** ****: hello?
Notice: I'm sorry, your Chat Agent has ended the session. If you would like to chat with another Agent, please click the LogOut link below and open a new chat from the LG Service website.

She couldn't expound on anything I requested her to; she just kept repeating the same things over and over, insisting that I was seeing distortion, when I clearly am very happy with the 3D in fact.

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post #280 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by HowlinWolf View Post

Well apparently your reading comprehension isn't flawless, because I never said my tv was flawless. I said my tv is just as good as an active.

Good is a very subjective and broad term... I think cakefoo thinks his passive is better than any active... doesn't mean that he doesn't see the inherent flaws though...

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post #281 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:49 PM
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Good is a very subjective and broad term... I think cakefoo thinks his passive is better than any active... doesn't mean that he doesn't see the inherent flaws though...
Exactly. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages, so to simply say one is "just as good" as another would be overlooking a lot of crucial subjective categories.

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post #282 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:49 PM
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Well apparently your reading comprehension isn't flawless, because I never said my tv was flawless. I said my tv is just as good as an active.

What would you say are the flaws then in your TV that a 4k passive TV would improve on, in terms of 3D viewing?
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post #283 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:50 PM
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Boy the ego on you....
So you think that was entirely directed at you, and I haven't been discussing anything in this thread with anyone else?
Look, if you want to use your tv as a computer monitor, don't act like the tv is flawed because it wasn't meant to be used that way.
You lecture me about being ignorant and saying I don't belong in this forum (because I'm not using my tv as a computer monitor) and then you go on to admit what I already knew: you don't have a surround sound setup.
Don't tell me about duplicating the theater experience or how I don't know anything about it until you setup a surround system. Because when you do, your 4 feet away from the tv is probably not going to work very well.
I've had a surround system for years, which means I haven't been sitting as close as you for years now. And my tv looks just fine at the distance I sit at.
I also attempt to recreate the theater experience, that's why I'm here, that's why I have surround sound, and that's why I have a 3d tv. Just because I don't do it the same way as you doesn't mean I'm not into the home theater experience or I don't belong on this site. I just have more space (apparently), surround speakers hung on the walls, and a bigger screen.

I'm curious what your surround sound system is dictating in terms of seating distance... I had a hefty surround setup when I was a projector (it's in boxes now due to a move) and I was 6-8 feet from a 110 inch screen... with proper delay and gain control on each speaker I never had a problem with my surround... and imagine I could have moved closer and still adjusted apporpriately...
Where did you put your rear speakers? Per THX, they're supposed to be on the back wall.

I guess it all comes down to the size of the room, but unless you're in something super small life a jail cell, 7.1 will need more than 4 feet of space (where he said he had his tv) from the tv for an ideal setup.
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post #284 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:57 PM
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Where did you put your rear speakers? Per THX, they're supposed to be on the back wall.
I guess it all comes down to the size of the room, but unless you're in something super small life a jail cell, 7.1 will need more than 4 feet of space (where he said he had his tv) from the tv for an ideal setup.
Distance from my TV and front speakers, to the rear wall is 10 feet. I absolutely could have a proper surround sound setup sitting 5 feet from my TV.

You've been distorting my room dimensions and viewing distance this entire conversation, I don't know why I tolerate it...

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post #285 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 06:59 PM
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I contacted LG. I told them I sit 5 feet away, but they recommended I sit 6.5 feet away. The ONLY reason that insisted this was because they claimed I would be seeing distorted 3D. I explained that while the 3D does look relatively flat at DEFAULT settings from 5 feet away, it looks great with a viewpoint setting tweak (a convergence adjustment that simulates pushing the image further back). After a little "nuh-uh" "yuh-huh" bs, the rep left the chat.

Anabel: Hello **** ****. Welcome to LG Electronics U.S.A. Support only. How may I provide you with excellent service today?
**** ****: is it ok to watch 3D content on my 42 inch TV from 5 feet away?
Anabel: Let me see what I can do to assist you with this.
Anabel: I would like to please place you on a brief hold while I research that for you, will that be alright?
**** ****: sure
Anabel: thanks
Anabel: No, the minimum should be 6.5 ft to 32.8 ft
**** ****: is it different for 2D content?
Anabel: yes because you need some space to be able to have a better perception of the 3D
**** ****: the reason i ask is because i've had no problem at 5 feet watching 2D Blu-rays in the past, but when I watch 3D content I can notice a drop in resolution, and I have to sit about 7 feet away to make it tolerable.
Anabel: yes, the 3D has a lower resolution
Anabel: and you need to have more space than watching 2D
**** ****: for depth perception, i know about how depth can flatten as you sit closer but I've had success adjusting the depth slider.
**** ****: i know it doesn't increase the strength, but it can simulate sitting further away from a larger TV
Anabel: you need to sit further away to have a better picture, also you need to place the tv in a dark room
**** ****: for what it's worth, i've had no qualms about the depth when sitting 5 feet from my TV- it's just the resolution that bothers me that close.
Anabel: yes, you shouldn't sit so close
Anabel: is not the same
Anabel: and we do not suggest it, it wont have the same effect
**** ****: the sense of depth looks great to my eyes from 5 feet
Anabel: yes but the picture wont look the same
**** ****: could you be more specific about the picture?
Anabel: that's the recommended setting, at least 6 ft away
Anabel: if you sit closer you wont be able to see the picture correctly
**** ****: i heard that, but i was wondering what specifically about the picture "won't look the same."
**** ****: what do you mean by "the picture?"
Anabel: it might look distorted
Anabel: what ever you have in 3D
**** ****: the dimensionality, you mean? it doesn't when i compensate by adjusting the viewpoint on the tv menu
Anabel: the image might look distorted
Notice: Anabel has exited the chat session.
**** ****: hello?
Notice: I'm sorry, your Chat Agent has ended the session. If you would like to chat with another Agent, please click the LogOut link below and open a new chat from the LG Service website.

She couldn't expound on anything I requested her to; she just kept repeating the same things over and over, insisting that I was seeing distortion, when I clearly am very happy with the 3D in fact.
LG support is pretty worthless. I had a terrible time with them trying to get the android app working correctly. Had a few other bad experiences with them as well.
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post #286 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 07:13 PM
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Where did you put your rear speakers? Per THX, they're supposed to be on the back wall.
I guess it all comes down to the size of the room, but unless you're in something super small life a jail cell, 7.1 will need more than 4 feet of space (where he said he had his tv) from the tv for an ideal setup.
Distance from my TV and front speakers, to the rear wall is 10 feet. I absolutely could have a proper surround sound setup sitting 5 feet from my TV.

You've been distorting my room dimensions and viewing distance this entire conversation, I don't know why I tolerate it...
You said you sit 4 feet away from the tv. That is what I said.
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post #287 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 07:18 PM
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I think that website just general info, not specific to any particular tv. The manual was made for that specific tv.
But common sense would tell me, if you're sitting way closer than the manufacturer says to sit, and you're complaining about the lines, the first thing you should do is move back to the recommended distance.
I could simply sit farther back, but that would decrease the size of the screen and therefore make it more difficult to appreciate detail and decrease the immersive qualities of 3D.

So you DO agree that FPR tech results in a loss in resolution that must be hidden by moving further away. This is the problem with current 1080p FPR sets in a nutshell, you just don't personally experience them because you're more satisfied with a small screen view whereas I desire a big field of view like in the theater. You're on an AV enthusiast website, so keep in mind there are more people like myself and fewer like yourself. Except I didn't invest a lot in my setup- I just have a humble 42 inch that I sit 4 feet away from.

So you sit 4 feet away from your tv, right?
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post #288 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 07:18 PM
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You said you sit 4 feet away from the tv. That is what I said.
You've been saying "3 feet" in past posts in reference to how far away you don't sit (your way of exaggerating my complaints). And you have disregarded to inquire as to the distance from myself to the back wall of my room, you've simply assumed all this time that I wouldn't be able to do proper surround.

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post #289 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 07:25 PM
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Yeah I was just talking about what the manual says. I think mine says at least 2 meters when I hit the 3d button too, but the manual said 8 feet if I recall correctly.
And of course I follow the manufactured recommendations. That's why I'm getting good picture quality while everyone else is missing out. It's not like sitting 3 feet closer would give a drastically more immersive experience.
I would suggest you try it at about 9 feet. You might be surprised.

Actually sitting 3 feet away does give a much more immersive experience... I used to sit 8 feet from my 110' screen for this exact reason and I even sat 3 feet from my 55 lg last night watching a 3D movie... the experience was very good outside the obvious resolutino scan line issues.

On my 42 inch LG I also sat closer and the picture was great and better for it...

Manufacturers ratings are like tire inflation recommendations from the car maker... they recomend underinflation because it makes the ride softer... TV makers suggest sitting furthe rback to curb their risk of any type of eye damage from being too close and to do exactly what you are talking about - help maks any pq issues...

I would suggest you try stiting close to a 3D movie at some point.... 1.5 x screen width with something like Prometheus. Do it on both passive and active and I would be surpris if you didn't come away feeling that it's better close.
This is where the 3 feet came from. It wasn't just my way of exaggerating your distance (even though it's only 1 foot difference).
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post #290 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 07:26 PM
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So you sit 4 feet away from your tv, right?
yes...

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post #291 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 07:33 PM
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This is where the 3 feet came from. It wasn't just my way of exaggerating your distance (even though it's only 1 foot difference).
Ohhhh, ok. Forgive me, when I participate in a thread I try to read all the posts that aren't mine but there's only so much I can do. The difference between 3 and 4 ft may only be 1ft difference but my legs would be cramped if I had to sit that close. Field of view at that distance would increase from 42 degrees to 54. At about 60 degrees I begin to question if I'm too close. But again, with such a small TV I have to sit 2.5 feet away to get the max tolerable viewing angle, and that just wouldn't be physically comfortable on my legs since I wouldn't be able to kick them out.

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post #292 of 408 Old 12-12-2012, 10:11 PM
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Where did you put your rear speakers? Per THX, they're supposed to be on the back wall.
I guess it all comes down to the size of the room, but unless you're in something super small life a jail cell, 7.1 will need more than 4 feet of space (where he said he had his tv) from the tv for an ideal setup.

On the back wall... it was a fairly small living room but even if it wasn't I could move the screen into the middle of the room if I wanted.

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post #293 of 408 Old 12-14-2012, 09:16 AM
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Was it active or passive 3d? I didn't think Sony made any passive 3D sets yet and seems odd they would start with this one...

its definitely passive - I think its related to the technology used in the set (again, supposed to be same as movie theaters use). Its their only passive set.
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post #294 of 408 Old 12-14-2012, 09:38 AM
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Was it active or passive 3d? I didn't think Sony made any passive 3D sets yet and seems odd they would start with this one...

Passive:

http://store.sony.com/c/S_4KTV/en/c/S_4KTV

3D on a grand scale.

There's 3D, then there's 3D with 4K1. Larger-than-life images emerge from the massive 84" (diag.) screen with realism that makes your heart race. The level of detail is absolutely stunning—it's the closest thing to a 3D theater in your living room. Light, comfortable, passive 3D glasses offer superb image quality and a noticeable step above anything you've ever experienced at home 5.

Twice the fun: 2-player games with no split screen.

Say goodbye to split screen. Now you and a friend can both experience your own big-screen view of the action as you play nail-biting games. SimulView™ gaming presents two separate Full HD pictures: each player watches independently through light easy to wear glasses that don't need batteries. There's already a growing choice of SimulView game titles available for PlayStation® 3 system7.
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post #295 of 408 Old 12-14-2012, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by twarren View Post

its definitely passive - I think its related to the technology used in the set (again, supposed to be same as movie theaters use). Its their only passive set.

I wonder when they say that is it really like it is in theaters (ie each frame is polarized at the source and so each eye gets a full frame) or if they are just using it in the generic (and I feel inacurate) sense that they both use polarized glasses....

If the screen itself polarizes the entire image frame by frame that would be awesome but seems every expensive/difficult...

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post #296 of 408 Old 12-14-2012, 11:15 AM
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here is my take on it without reading all the other post, and let me first say I am a DUAL PROJECTION guy so I like my PASSIVE at full resolution. I do however own an LG passive TV and as a test before buying I stood back about 8 feet and put on a pair of dual play glasses with a 2D 1080p picture. The dual play glasses will cut out half of the horizontal lines even in 2D since the film is built into the display. I could just barely tell a difference and it only came into play with thin horizontal lines.
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post #297 of 408 Old 12-14-2012, 12:17 PM
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I wonder when they say that is it really like it is in theaters (ie each frame is polarized at the source and so each eye gets a full frame) or if they are just using it in the generic (and I feel inacurate) sense that they both use polarized glasses....
If the screen itself polarizes the entire image frame by frame that would be awesome but seems every expensive/difficult...
They're specifically referring to "level of detail" you get in a theater, and that's easier to appreciate with the bigger screen size and higher resolution. But when you consider that active has been doing full 1080p per eye for ages (and without scanlines), Sony's claims become less accurate. That's assuming the hardware is 1080 lines per eye. The truth about FPR resolution has been getting stretched for ages, so it's safe to assume they're being disingenuous now as well.

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post #298 of 408 Old 12-15-2012, 12:29 AM
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here is my take on it without reading all the other post, and let me first say I am a DUAL PROJECTION guy so I like my PASSIVE at full resolution. I do however own an LG passive TV and as a test before buying I stood back about 8 feet and put on a pair of dual play glasses with a 2D 1080p picture. The dual play glasses will cut out half of the horizontal lines even in 2D since the film is built into the display. I could just barely tell a difference and it only came into play with thin horizontal lines.

But the real test is a 3D image... remember in a 2D image you are experiencing the scanline issue... add a seperate parallax image for the other eye and you get image disparity between the eyes on top of the scanlines....

The result is that the effect becomes MORE pronounced because now you don't just get the aliasing as a result of the scanlines you have two sets of aliasing that are slighting different in each eye so you get that very noticeable moire effect (for lack of a better term) that almost makes the aliasing sparkle.

Try it... scenes with computer screens do a good job... chech out MI Ghost Protocal and do and set it to 2D-3D conversion... when you see their laptop screen (which has very thin lines and writing on it) the scanlines do that weird mismatch dance.

This also comes into effect in 3D scenes where a horizontal surface or line exists in one eye but not the other... this is why the arguments based around the numbers don't work... its more than the numbers, its' a lot how the human mind and eye work/percieve.

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post #299 of 408 Old 12-15-2012, 08:49 AM
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Also, how big is that tv youre sitting 8ft away from? probably not big enough to fill your view like a projector screen or theater screen can.

if you cant sit close enough for that immersive experience you wont see the flaws but you also will not be able to maximize full 1080p detail in 2D either.

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post #300 of 408 Old 12-17-2012, 01:14 PM
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Was talking to someone yesterday about this and actually thought of something that helps illustrate the point that resolution is not the end all of the discussion in the case of FPR:

With current FPR it's often said each eye sees 540p... but thats actually not true... each eye is seeing 1080p but it's seeing 540 lines of black as part of that.

When the terms 480p, 720p and 1080p are thrown around it's assumed they exist in an environment in which pixel spacing is reasonable and unintrusive... the difference with FPR "540p" is that it does not conform to this as it's has a massive vertical pixel spacing issue.

That's why the theory behind 540p +540p =1080p falls apart... becuase really FPR is 1008p+1080p but with a massive image infidelity introduced into both.

It is often suggested that this infidelity is removed by the brain "fusing" the two images but a simple test to see that this only works in low contrast complex areas (and even then just works better than high contrast areas, not necessarily works per se) is to simply walk up close to the screen with normal 3D glasses on and any content. You will notice with both eyes open at about 1 foot away that you see distinctly an image that is 1 line of image, then one black line, then 1 line of image again... your brain does not fuse this like a dinterlacer would do in the computer world (sliding each image line inbetween the lines of the other eye) but rather matches each black line up with each other black line and thus also matching each image line up with each other image line. This is of course incorrect as each eye is seeing a seperate field that shold not overlap.

This is ust how the human brain works.

Of course as you back up, eventually you will fail to resolve the black lines in each eye and in effect they will play roughly the same role as actual pixel spacing does on a normal display with the one caveat that the spacing is actually the size of a full pixel... no current display I can think of today (other than billboard stuff like at baseball games) has pixel spacing equivalent to an entire pixel...

What this means is that once you are back far enough to not resolve the black lines, you are back far enough you cannot resolve a single pixel height... and this is in it's strongest form (ie if the black bars were only grey or a light shade of a color you would lose the ability to resolve at a closer distance as the contrast would be less).

I was playing some Call of Duty Black Ops 2 Last night (a game I got specifically to test out the 3D gaming as they are promoting it with LG 3D) and interestingly enough even on areas where there is no parallax (ie 2D text on scoreboards and lobby screens) there is still noteable scanlines. If the fusion theory were true, this wouldn't happen because in a 2D image, you are truly seeing all originaly 1080 lines of data at the same time and properly spaced relative to each other... so why would there still be scanlines? The reason is that how fusion ACTUALLY works is your brain moves lines AWAY from their proper location and stacks them on each other due to the black lines in between each line.

This is also noticeable in the small wave signal at the lower right of BLOPS2 that sometimes shows up as a sort of loading bar... as it crawls along there is significant interlacing apparent in what should be a solid 2D line.

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