Please don't die 3D!? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 06-24-2013, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello everyone, hope I'm posting this in the right forum... I am a novice home theater enthusiast. I currently own a Samsung Pn50b650 plasma which (for me) is absolutely stunning. Obviously, as my interest in AV grows, so does my desire to get a new panel. (Also need to upgrade audio but that's for another time) ... I spent all of last year researching what you guys had to say about some of the sets that fit my budget. For what it's worth, I'm in the 1500 to 2100 dollar range. Here's the deal... I ABSOUTELY love, LOVE the waxy plasmas' look. Maybe things have changed but a couple years ago, I bought (and promptly returned) a Sammy LCD. My wife and I just couldn't hack watching movies like Star Wars with the often described as "soap opera" effect. I tweaked the judder and everything else you guys suggested but finally came to the conclusion that Plasma was the way for us. So why am I posting this in the 3D section? Because I'm one of the few (it seems) people out there that love 3D! Here is my dilemma...

Is 3D going away? I don't mean, this year or next... But more like... Are manufacturers giving up on it? I ask because I read a popular magazine and web site that reviews tv's and when it came to the 3d portion of the review it said... "Who cares!, nobody watches 3D at home" now this disturbed me because all I have ever wanted was to be able to kick back, and watch a nice movie on the couch and be wowed! So, now my dilemma comes into play... What do you recommend? To be fair, I have never owned or watched a 3d film at home. The closest I came to was viewing Avatar on a Panny last year at my local BB magnolia section. So, my interest has been focused on the P60ST60 ... Problem with that is most reviews state that the 3d performance is "ok" at best and kinda dim. My room although not extremely bright isn't light controlled so brightness is a factor... Especially as we can't not stand a "dim" picture. As stated above, my current tv is plenty bright. I understand 3d naturally dims your picture so... What do you guys recommend? Should I just "deal with it" and start looking at LED's (recommendations?) or are there better performing 3d capable sets in my price range that are plasma? Thoughts? Am I wasting my time? Truthfully, I am probably only going to be watching a film a week in the 3d setting anyway.... But that's a wait and see type of thing...

I hope I posted this in the proper place as I said, if not, could someone repost this where it might get the attention of the questions I'm asking? I want to close with, you guys are all(mostly) awesome! I spend a lot of time here reading but don't post so much and it's really nice to see that there are like minded folks out there that actually care about picture quality! Thank you SO much.... chad
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post #2 of 16 Old 06-25-2013, 05:25 AM
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If you can't control the light in your viewing room, stay away from projectors, especially 3D. However, LED Passive 3D panels will work fine in a fully lighted room. Passive glasses are not as dark as active and are less tiring for some people than passive glasses. Also much lower cost.

Is 3D dead? Who cares? Questions have been answered ad nauseum. The first question is ignorant at best. 'nuf said. The second question is most important- Who cares? Answer here seems to be those writers who feel threatened by the latest innovations in 3D stereography for home viewing and movie theaters. Those of us who love it for it's entertainment value, don't care what the 3D haters emotional discord is. Were have fun with 3D and they are the miserable ones. Movie directors seem to embrace the tool as a way to expand their art as well as expand their revenue stream. Use of 3D is growing all the time and more TV makers are adding 3D to their line of setws with some planning to offer all sets they make being 3D capable. What's really important in this question is whether YOU care? If you love 3D the debate is over. Go for it. If you can live without it, then decide if you want to live without it and move on.

If you love 3D-
The real question today is do I wait for 4K Passives to come down more in price or settle with a 1080p model. Do I look for 240Hz or 120 Hz model. Passive or active.
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post #3 of 16 Old 06-25-2013, 08:17 AM
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I actually really love 3D in thoery, but in reality its a bit of a letdown for me. I have an Epson 3020 Projector and even in total darkness its lackluster.

Reasons I dont like 3D:
  • Darkened picture
  • Colors, contrast get thrown off
  • Eye strain
  • Ghosting on different planes of the 3D image



IF the industry could overcome these things Id be 100% all in. I dont even mind wearing glasses.
Hopefully we'll see a day when these issues are fixed

Maybe there are Projectors that can do a better job and I just dont know it. If so, if they are reasonably prices, Im in!

Flan's Theater!

Xbox Gamertag: Darth Flan
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post #4 of 16 Old 06-25-2013, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mflanagan View Post

I actually really love 3D in thoery, but in reality its a bit of a letdown for me. I have an Epson 3020 Projector and even in total darkness its lackluster.

Reasons I dont like 3D:
  • Darkened picture
  • Colors, contrast get thrown off
  • Eye strain
  • Ghosting on different planes of the 3D image



IF the industry could overcome these things Id be 100% all in. I dont even mind wearing glasses.
Hopefully we'll see a day when these issues are fixed

Maybe there are Projectors that can do a better job and I just dont know it. If so, if they are reasonably prices, Im in!

My sentiments exactly.

That said, all my kit are 3D compatible (Panasonic 50GT50/Denon AVR-3313) but I don't have glasses and not sure when Panasonic will have stock again of them. Therefore, I haven't actually watched a 3D film.

Yet. wink.gif

The glasses are the biggest issue though; eye strain and fatigue.
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post #5 of 16 Old 06-25-2013, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mflanagan View Post

Reasons I dont like 3D:
  • Darkened picture
  • Colors, contrast get thrown off
  • Eye strain
  • Ghosting on different planes of the 3D image

As you alluded to, these are almost all display problems rather than problems with 3D itself.

If you want a brighter picture, get a high gain screen. Or get a a passive flat panel.
For contrast, if I remember correctly your particular projector only has a 1000:1 contrast ratio in 3D mode.
For eye strain, there's a lot of factors that go into this. Passive solves it for some, for others it's just a matter of getting used to 3D images.
For ghosting, this is clearly a display problem. With a DLP or any number of better 3D displays, there is no ghosting.

Displays that don't have these problems already exist, and for the most part aren't particularly expensive.
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post #6 of 16 Old 06-26-2013, 09:07 AM
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Airion is correct. I have two projectors here. Due to a short life Philips bulb recently I had to revert to my spare projector which is an Epson. It did have a harsh 2D picture that I just could not correct in the color advanced setups or presets. While the Epson is plenty bright and less than half the price of the Sony it just does not have the same image quality. When my new OSRAM bulb finally arrived I put it in my Sony VPL-VW90ES and what a difference! The Sony image quality is as good as any I have seen in the Real 3D theaters, plus it is a bit brighter. It's true that the Sony Projectors are considerably more expensive, but you can't blame poor image quality on the technology of 3D. It is in the quality of the display. AND, this holds true for both 2D and 3D but in 3D, being a more critical requirement, the quality really becomes an important issue.

As for higher gain screens, you do have to be careful here as many of these screens will have hot spotting and cause uneven image brightness across the width of the screen,. I would not spend the money for a screen until I saw it in person. There is no rating system to compare hot spotting and uneven brightness.
The LG and Sony Passive panels look very good too but passive does have one disadvantage in that you have to view vertically centered as if you stand up you will lose 3D depth and see double images.
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post #7 of 16 Old 06-26-2013, 06:54 PM
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Oops, just repeated what everyone else said, nevermind...

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A movie with good 3D does not necessarily equal a good 3D movie!

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post #8 of 16 Old 06-27-2013, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Airion is correct. I have two projectors here. Due to a short life Philips bulb recently I had to revert to my spare projector which is an Epson. It did have a harsh 2D picture that I just could not correct in the color advanced setups or presets. While the Epson is plenty bright and less than half the price of the Sony it just does not have the same image quality. When my new OSRAM bulb finally arrived I put it in my Sony VPL-VW90ES and what a difference! The Sony image quality is as good as any I have seen in the Real 3D theaters, plus it is a bit brighter. It's true that the Sony Projectors are considerably more expensive, but you can't blame poor image quality on the technology of 3D. It is in the quality of the display. AND, this holds true for both 2D and 3D but in 3D, being a more critical requirement, the quality really becomes an important issue.

As for higher gain screens, you do have to be careful here as many of these screens will have hot spotting and cause uneven image brightness across the width of the screen,. I would not spend the money for a screen until I saw it in person. There is no rating system to compare hot spotting and uneven brightness.
The LG and Sony Passive panels look very good too but passive does have one disadvantage in that you have to view vertically centered as if you stand up you will lose 3D depth and see double images.

The king of high gain screens is still the DaLite HighPower to me. No hotspotting on that one, very flat screen type picture. Placement of the projector is critical though...

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post #9 of 16 Old 07-03-2013, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillychad View Post

Is 3D going away? I don't mean, this year or next... But more like... Are manufacturers giving up on it? I ask because I read a popular magazine and web site that reviews tv's and when it came to the 3d portion of the review it said... "Who cares!, nobody watches 3D at home" now this disturbed me because all I have ever wanted was to be able to kick back, and watch a nice movie on the couch and be wowed!

I too am a big 3D enthusiast and have been disappointed in the way the industry has handled 3D at the theaters and for home viewing. In corporate America if a product or service doesn’t make a huge profit quickly it is considered a failure and after the disjointed launch of 3D TV by most of the TV manufactures and slip shod marketing in retail its not surprising 3D TV viewing has kind of faded from the public’s eye. It’s really sad now that there is so much great content out there now.

Anyway I think the main problem is that 3D enthusiasts have no real voice in the industry except our sales figures. The only voices that most consumers hear are from 3D hating critics who’s goal appears to be to end 3D even though no one is forcing them to view it. Add that to the lack luster marketing the studios do on their 3D releases and you have a sad situation for those of us who enjoy 3D content at home. For example it appears that Disney is souring on 3D as they are shutting down their ESPN3D channel and their promotion and release of the 3D bluray of their best 3D feature OZ was just thrown away. They didn’t even bother to have the overpriced single disc release on the shelves at Best Buy or Walmart on release day. And not long ago Best Buy stopped displaying all the 3D releases in one rack, mixing them in with the DVD and bluray releases. To new consumers it’s out of sight out of mind.

I think 3D will stick around and grow slowly but it would help if there were more positive voices out there to encourage other viewers to give it a try and to let our corporate masters know we would like more.
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post #10 of 16 Old 07-04-2013, 11:39 AM
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Yea sell that Epson and get a Benq W1070. Then you will really enjoy proper 3D
Quote:
Originally Posted by mflanagan View Post

I actually really love 3D in thoery, but in reality its a bit of a letdown for me. I have an Epson 3020 Projector and even in total darkness its lackluster.

Reasons I dont like 3D:
  • Darkened picture
  • Colors, contrast get thrown off
  • Eye strain
  • Ghosting on different planes of the 3D image



IF the industry could overcome these things Id be 100% all in. I dont even mind wearing glasses.
Hopefully we'll see a day when these issues are fixed

Maybe there are Projectors that can do a better job and I just dont know it. If so, if they are reasonably prices, Im in!
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post #11 of 16 Old 07-05-2013, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by l88bastard View Post

Yea sell that Epson and get a Benq W1070. Then you will really enjoy proper 3D

The problem with many of the DLPs is the DLP-link for 3D. DLP-link really hurts the contrast (on/off). If you want rally good 3D you'll pobably have to spend more money and go for a DLP with IR or RF 3D emitter and glasses or an Epson 5020 or Sony HW-50 (they have minimal ghosting with a bright 3D image and lots of pop).

See post 4389 for an example of the difference between DLP-link and DLP with IR or RF emitter and glasses.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/sony-hw50-benq-w7000-epson-5020-jvc-rs55-jvc-rs-46-jvc-rs4810-jvc-rs56-mini-shootout-2012-2013/4380
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post #12 of 16 Old 07-05-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

The problem with many of the DLPs is the DLP-link for 3D. DLP-link really hurts the contrast (on/off). If you want rally good 3D you'll pobably have to spend more money and go for a DLP with IR or RF 3D emitter and glasses or an Epson 5020 or Sony HW-50 (they have minimal ghosting with a bright 3D image and lots of pop).

See post 4389 for an example of the difference between DLP-link and DLP with IR or RF emitter and glasses.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1434826/sony-hw50-benq-w7000-epson-5020-jvc-rs55-jvc-rs-46-jvc-rs4810-jvc-rs56-mini-shootout-2012-2013/4380
Cross-posting my reply:

That color cast is nowhere near as noticeable when the glasses are powered on, just as the double images become one. Maybe there IS a color cast/contrast downgrade with DLP Link flash, but it's going to take a glasses-on comparison to really prove it.

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post #13 of 16 Old 07-06-2013, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakefoo View Post

Cross-posting my reply:

That color cast is nowhere near as noticeable when the glasses are powered on, just as the double images become one. Maybe there IS a color cast/contrast downgrade with DLP Link flash, but it's going to take a glasses-on comparison to really prove it.

I'm not sure about the red DLP link flashes, but I have experience with the white DLP link flashes and having seen both DLP link and IR with the same projector I'd avoid the DLP link if possible -- it makes a very noticeable degradation to contrast. I've done a direct comparison and was very disappointed with DLP link. I now have two DLP link glasses gathering dust.
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post #14 of 16 Old 07-06-2013, 03:36 PM
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I really hated the white flash dlp link because of washing out contrast. I now have a Benq W1070 with the red flash dlp and to my eyes, the contrast seems at least as good as my Acer h5360 with ir glasses. With that being said, I still would prefer ir or rf glasses because I still can see red in blacks once in a while, especially if I tilt my head a little.

Also don't forget that some glasses are better at blocking the flash than others.
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post #15 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 04:48 PM
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I believe there's been some confusion on the internet with people taking pictures of projectors in DLP-link vs IR/RF mode without the glasses, and of course DLP-link looks washed out in that case. The DLP-link flash is not supposed to make it into the image you see with the glasses on.

One problem however is cheap DLP-link glasses that don't fully block the flash. In that case, of course, you'll get reduced contrast. If your projector uses a red DLP-link flash and you can see reddish blacks, that means the glasses aren't doing their job. It shouldn't be a problem with high quality glasses.

The only other reason I can think of for reduced contrast with DLP-link is if your room has a lot of light reflections. The extra light output of the DLP-link flash on the screen could slightly light up your room and slightly reduce contrast. Otherwise I'm not aware of any technical reason for why DLP-link should reduce contrast given a good room and good glasses. But if I'm missing something, I'm eager to hear it.
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post #16 of 16 Old 07-10-2013, 06:07 PM
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So my question between the DLP Link and RF/IR glasses is the refresh rate. The W1070 and HD25 both claim 144 Hz refresh rate with DLP Link. Would that mean the VESA RF/IR would also have that refresh rate?
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