Can't locate a passive 3D monitor. Why? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 21 Old 03-14-2015, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Can't locate a passive 3D monitor. Why?

I'm desperately looking for a passive 3D monitor to be used for stereo vision testing (not gaming or video). The software that I want to purchase was written and tested for passive 3D display. Unfortunately, most passive monitor I looked at have been discontinued. Please advice where I may be able to find one. Also, if I must go with an active monitor then what would be the differences? Would an active 3D still provide side by side or top bottom display? Any active monitor utilizes circular or horizontal polarization?


I'm a very naïve poster and audience for this subject so please provide detailed answers. Many thanks!
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post #2 of 21 Old 03-14-2015, 02:25 PM
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If you're using side-by-side or top-bottom, it's compatible with any 3D monitor. Active or passive only describes what it outputs, not what it inputs.

No active displays use polarization of any kind for 3D. That's passive only.

Given that passive displays are in the minority, I find it very odd that you've found software that only supports one type. If you dig into it, I think you'll find that it works with any 3D display. Or, the company making it is completely bass-ackwards in regards to current technology and you need to source your software from somewhere else. Do you have a link to the software's website?

Welcome to Rivendell, Mister Anderson.
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post #3 of 21 Old 03-15-2015, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for responding. I can't post the link. Please go to Konanmedical.


I'm particularly interested in the stereo vision part. I was instructed to buy a circular or horizontal polarized 3D monitor although they "think" an active monitor "might" work. The concept of stereo vision here is based on both eyes fused together.


Would much prefer to send you a PM but it seems that I would have to post 15 messages before I can do so.
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post #4 of 21 Old 03-16-2015, 03:12 PM
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The system on the Konan Medical site uses LG 3D passive monitor; all these monitors could accept both an HDMI 3D signal (which is compatible with all modern active 3D displays) or row-interleaved signal (which is accepted by a limited number of active 3D TVs). Without knowing more about the output signal, it is risky to get an active display.

Passive displays are now common in 3D TVs, for sizes 40" (less common; older models) and up. I believe they accept both HDMI 3D and row-interleaved signal. You may want to consider and research that as an option.
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post #5 of 21 Old 03-16-2015, 04:33 PM
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My guess is that their software outputs an interlaced picture for FPR type passive polarised displays.
The polarised film on the screen is designed to make even and odd rows of pixels output with a different rotating polarisation, the glasses filter the polarised light to only show the correct rows of pixels in each eye.
The difficulty here is that the software must be designed to output the exact number of rows to match the display, usually 1080p, but it isn't always the case, especially when using monitors that use a 16:10 ratio instead of the 16:9 ratio used by TVs. And finally the computer must be configured to maintain the perfect pixel alignment without scaling (usually easy but you shouldn't forget it otherwise the rows will be mixed up)

Passive monitors are becoming rare, partly because of the war Nvidia lead against them to promote it's 3D vision solution (uses active shutter glasses), and partly because monitors have a very narrow vertical field of view for viewing stereoscopic 3D content.
FPR is a polarising film added on top of an existing LCD monitor (it's not embedded inside the pixels), looking at the screen at an angle results in the film no longer lining up with the pixels, light intended for the other eye bleeds through the wrong polarized row, and the left and right eye picture are mixed up (crosstalk).

Bigger screens tend to have larger pixels and are viewed for farther. This help both increase the viewing angle and reduce the angle variation between viewers.
I own a Zalman 22" FPR monitor, I sit about an arm's length away from it, and using it for stereoscopic 3D viewing requires me to systematically readjust the monitor tilt angle, and then make sure I stay still to not change height, or my eyes will drift outside of the ideal viewing angle and loose stereoscopic vision due to the screen's crosstalk.
With a big TV using similar technology, and sitting a few meters away, you can set the tilt angle once and it will fit almost anyone sitting on the couch/chair, no matter how tall they are. So passive 3DTVs based of FPR technology is still quite popular.
I recommend you use a bigger TV rather than a small monitor.

FPR displays are almost all standardized to match the polarisation of RealD-3D glasses used for cinema, if you buy these glasses you should get circular polarisation with a horizontal filter in both eyes however there are some glasses that use linear polarisation filters for other types of polarised displays but they are usually mentionned specifically.
Finally, a word of warning : the FPR row order isn't standardized across TV brands, I have seen displays with odd field for the left eye as well as displays with even field for the left eye, so stereosopic software designed to work with these displays usually have a function for swapping the left and right eye views, this way, the users can set the left and right eye views correctly if the rows are set incorrectly.
The first time you use your test software, you'll have to make sure the eyes are correctly assigned or you'll get a bad surprise.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 03-16-2015 at 04:47 PM.
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post #6 of 21 Old 03-16-2015, 05:53 PM
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I also have a Zalman Trimon, and it has native support in 3Dvision, so I'm not sure how Nvidia lead the war against them. In fact with a little software tweaking you make most passive HDTV's believe they are Zalman's and work with 3Dvision software.
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post #7 of 21 Old 03-16-2015, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurkor View Post
I also have a Zalman Trimon, and it has native support in 3Dvision, so I'm not sure how Nvidia lead the war against them. In fact with a little software tweaking you make most passive HDTV's believe they are Zalman's and work with 3Dvision software.
The Zalman is the only one they support, they flat out refuse to support any other passive monitors for absolutely no reason (I imagine the Zalman support was added before they realized how much money they could make on the 3D Vision hardware). I'm sure they'd drop the Zalman in a heartbeat if they could, it probably irks them to no end that players (like myself, with an Asus passive display, LG panel of course) can play 3D Vision games without purchasing the extra hardware. Also irks a few NVidia fanboys that think I'm cheating NVidia by playing 3D Vision for "free".

Welcome to Rivendell, Mister Anderson.
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post #8 of 21 Old 03-16-2015, 06:45 PM
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Frame packing became the designed by committee holy grail of 3d gaming. Nvidia complied with the standard by creating 3dtv-play, and the rest is history. I'm not going to knock Nvidia for continuing to support a device which is no longer even being produced. Also intriguing to me are recent reports of new high end Samsung HDTV's working with the old standard.
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post #9 of 21 Old 03-19-2015, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi2016 View Post
The Zalman is the only one they support, they flat out refuse to support any other passive monitors for absolutely no reason (I imagine the Zalman support was added before they realized how much money they could make on the 3D Vision hardware). I'm sure they'd drop the Zalman in a heartbeat if they could, it probably irks them to no end that players (like myself, with an Asus passive display, LG panel of course) can play 3D Vision games without purchasing the extra hardware. Also irks a few NVidia fanboys that think I'm cheating NVidia by playing 3D Vision for "free".
Zalman paid Nvidia for driver support. A certification fee per monitor model + a royalty fee per monitor sold.
We do not know how much it costs, but the amount is significant enough for Zalman to stop the deal at the second monitor generation, and for Samsung to stop the deal after their original Nvidia 3D vision montior (2233RZ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurkor View Post
Frame packing became the designed by committee holy grail of 3d gaming. Nvidia complied with the standard by creating 3dtv-play, and the rest is history. I'm not going to knock Nvidia for continuing to support a device which is no longer even being produced. Also intriguing to me are recent reports of new high end Samsung HDTV's working with the old standard.
After extensively testing all the currently available formats, I am sad to tell you that hdmi frame-packing is actually the best standardized stereoscopic 3D format. It's not the simplest or the most loved (that's side by side), it's not the one manufacturers push into high performance (that Nvidia 3D vision), but it's the only one that actually does things right.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #10 of 21 Old 03-24-2015, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice.

BlackShark, I think your idea of getting a passive 3D TV is great. Does it mean I have to connect (or be able to connect) the TV to a computer where I can download this software? I'm a naive audience so please advice the best way to make it work with the TV.

Thanks!
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post #11 of 21 Old 03-27-2015, 11:07 AM
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For the software I thought you wanted to run Konan Medical's software.

In order to display a stereoscopic picture on a 3D enabled TV, you have a choice :
-Show an interlaced picture with the left and right eye views split between the odd and even lines of pixels, so that the lines in the picture matche the lines of the FPR filter embedded in your TV, you'll have to make sure the scaling in the computer and the TV and the sharpness settings are properly configured to make sure the lines are not mixed up by any picture "improvement" feature between the original picture and what the TV is showing. (i think that's what Konan Medical uses)
-Show a side-by-side picture with the left and right eye views squashed in half and stacked horizontally (left half and right half of a regular full-screen picture). Then you'll have to use the TV remote to navigate the menus and tell the TV it should convert the side-by-side input into stereoscopic 3D. "Side-by-side" is a very popular stereoscopic picture format because it fits in the same size as any regular 2D picture, but the TVs can't recognize it, so almost all 3DTVs have a way to do this conversion somewhere in their menus.
-Show a top-over-bottom picture with the left and right eye squashed in half and stacked vertically (top half and bottom half of a regular full-screen picture). This is similar to side-by-side, but less popular, not all 3DTVs have this mode. However on a FPR 3DTV, it will be more precise since the number of rows for each eye will match the number of rows of the FPR pattern.

Then to send the picture to the TV there are many solutions :
-you can connect it directly to a computer with an Hdmi cable
-you can use a wireless home broadcast Hdmi receiver (like google's Chromecast) and drive the TV over WiFi from a computer, an ipad, and iphone, an android tablet or even an android phone
-If your TV has a USB port or an SD card reader you can store images and/or videos on a USB key or an SD card, and play movies directly from them. Not all TVs have this feature but it's becoming more and more common.

If you don't use Konan Medical's software, you may want to create your own stereoscopic pictures. There are plenty of stereosopic pictures on the internet, but I am not an Ophtalmologist so I don't know what kind of test picture you want to show for your diagnostics, but if you want to create one you can use any picture editing software you know(anything from Windows's Paint to Photoshop), you'll just need to create your Left and Right eye pictures separately (the hardest part is to keep stuff lined up).
Then you can use the free program Stereophoto-maker to assemble your left and right eye views and convert them into any stereosopic 3D format you wish : interlaced, side-by-side, top-over-bottom, or convert from one format to an other.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


Last edited by BlackShark; 03-27-2015 at 11:11 AM.
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post #12 of 21 Old 03-31-2015, 03:54 AM
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I use an HP 2311gt passive 3D 23" with an Nvidia GeForce GT 640 that work well together. I had to use a hack, installing the Zalman driver for the monitor to get it to work properly with the video card. Steam 3D games work great as well as 3D movies using Stereoscopic Player. There are a few issues, you have to be at a very specific height and angle while viewing for it to work properly without crosstalk. The glasses are proprietary, regular 3D passive glasses from my Toshiba 3D TV or movie theater glasses do not work with it. Text on the screen looks a bit choppy due to the interlaced lines with the glasses, so I only use them when using the 3D. I still love it and use it frequently for 3D games and movies.

Thank You
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http://www.curemode.com

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post #13 of 21 Old 08-20-2015, 02:07 AM
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Hi,

I am maybe responding to an old post.

I have bought a Philips 278G4 couple of months ago. It's an passive 3D with IPS panel and works with the Real3D glasses from the cinema.
As I 3D enthousiast, I can tell you the 3D looks stunning. The colors and brightness is super great.

I mainly use it for looking at my own 3D holiday pictures and 3D home video's. Do not use it for gaming.
I also have an Alienware laptop with active 3D(NVidia lightboost), whilst being active and double the resolution, I enjoy watching on the Philips monitor a lot more.
This because of the brightness and super colors.

The Philips monitor has a kind of a raster, it's the passive 3D screen. You will notice it in the beginning, but you will get use to it very soon.
In 2D mode this raster is not visible.
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post #14 of 21 Old 08-23-2015, 08:06 AM
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You got it wrong about the RealD glasses... you don't want to bring those pieces of crap home, it's the other way 'round! Take the much better quality glasses that came with your monitor/TV and take those to the theater! That's what I do, it's way better.. hehe.

Welcome to Rivendell, Mister Anderson.
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post #15 of 21 Old 11-23-2016, 07:22 AM
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Can StereoPhoto Maker create a row-interleaved signal (RIS) from two images: one for the right eye and one for the left eye? Or only active 3D (liquid crystal shutter) or anaglyph (red/blue).

I am looking to create RIS images for vision testing (passive 3D with circular polarized googles and compatible monitor/TV).

Thanks Ron
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post #16 of 21 Old 11-24-2016, 11:09 PM
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I think so.
The software is free, why don't you try it ?

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #17 of 21 Old 11-28-2016, 10:34 PM
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LG D2342 23" Passive 3D monitor
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post #18 of 21 Old 12-09-2016, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldKTM View Post
Can StereoPhoto Maker create a row-interleaved signal (RIS) from two images: one for the right eye and one for the left eye? Or only active 3D (liquid crystal shutter) or anaglyph (red/blue).

I am looking to create RIS images for vision testing (passive 3D with circular polarized googles and compatible monitor/TV).

Thanks Ron
Ron, you can use stereophoto maker to create an MPO file (contains Left/Right images combined in one file). Then your monitor should be able to see it in 3D, but the interlaced viewer in Stereophotomaker can be out of alignment when viewing. The better software I use is: http://3dmedia.com/products/3dcomposer-page.html

The viewer for free. It will automatically switch your passive 3D monitor into interlaced mode for MPO files. The editor version is great as it allows you to combine and correct some 3D alignment issues as well, and it's cheap.
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post #19 of 21 Old 12-10-2016, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
The better software I use is: http://3dmedia.com/products/3dcomposer-page.html
The viewer for free. It will automatically switch your passive 3D monitor into interlaced mode for MPO files. The editor version is great as it allows you to combine and correct some 3D alignment issues as well, and it's cheap.
Bob, can you tell us what does 3D composer program have that StereoPhoto Maker program is missing? On the other hand, from the description of the program, I can see plenty of things which are certainly missing in 3D composer (which StereoPhoto Maker have).

You also mentioned that interlaced viewer in Stereophotomaker can be out of alignment when viewing. I did not experience it. If interlaced viewer does not show correct depth (but instead showing pseudo pictures), you should select "SWAP L/R when in Interlaced mode" in Preferences (under tab "View").

By the way, I know that StereoPhoto Maker results with automatic alignment are not always perfect. Concerning AUTOMATIC ALIGNMENT, Sony Movie Studio (or Vegas Pro) is certainly the best and, as I already mentioned some time ago, also Edius can't hold a candle to Movie Studio or StereoPhoto Maker (or StereoMovie Maker). But I digress and this is entirely different subject...

Damir
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post #20 of 21 Old 12-10-2016, 10:27 AM
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Damir, 3D Composer simply works with MPO files and allows you to change the parallax, improve contrast and color and save as new file. You are right, it does not have all the features of Stereophotomaker, but it's very easy to use and serves as a good 3D viewer as well. The pro version does allow you to move objects in the 3D plane from one location to another, which is interesting to do. What I mean about miss alignment is if you create an interlaced file and try to view it using Stereomaker, it causes some missing lines to display on a passive monitor since it's not using the 3D monitor display function to show the image. Yes, I use those video editing programs as well and do automatic alignment but more for 3D video than stills.
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post #21 of 21 Old 05-04-2017, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnghi121 View Post
Thanks for responding. I can't post the link. Please go to Konanmedical.


I'm particularly interested in the stereo vision part. I was instructed to buy a circular or horizontal polarized 3D monitor although they "think" an active monitor "might" work. The concept of stereo vision here is based on both eyes fused together.


Would much prefer to send you a PM but it seems that I would have to post 15 messages before I can do so.
Chart2020 (no longer distributed by Konan Medical USA) now supports Stereo testing on Polarized or Normal monitors. The software includes an anaglyph to monitor calibrator which allows you to setup the exact colors for the screen, for your particular screen and anaglyphs. This sets up the best cancellation from each eye separately, and creates the 3D effect. There is support for both Red / Green or Red / Blue anaglyphs. A 21 day trial version is available from chart2020.com/standardized-stereo-testing/

The Polarized stereo testing is of course preferable and easier on the eyes for the patient, compared to color separation methods. However polarized monitors are hard to find in the retail space. There are a few options for medical monitors but these are costly. The only retail options for polarized screens in the retail space, are passive 3D Tv's mostly available by LG. These are generally too big for use in eye care medical facilities.
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