Does H-SBS or H-OU matter with 4K TVs Passive 3D - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 14 Old 11-06-2016, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Does H-SBS or H-OU matter with 4K TVs Passive 3D

Hello,

This is my first thread here and I hope I can get an answer to a question that has been bugging me ever since I decided to buy the LG 55UH8500, which is 4K TV with Passive 3D capabilities.

Almost all 3D materials available, that is not in original bluray, come in either Half-Side-By-Side (H-SBS) or Half-Over-Under (H-OU) formats. H-SBS videos have the horizontal resolution halved (960x1080), while H-OU videos have the vertical resolution halved (1920x540). Choosing one format over the other matters with FHD Passive 3D TVs, as, by design, the vertical resolution is halved in order for the TV to display the two images simultaneously. Since the vertical resolution of a H-OU has already been halved, a FHD Passive 3D TV will display a H-OU 3D video as it is. However, if the video is in H-SBS format, the TV further reduces the vertical resolution for an effective resolution of 960x540, which is obviously less than the 1920x540 for H-OU videos. This might give an edge of the perceived picture quality to H-OU videos over H-SBS on FHD Passive 3D TVs.

With 4K Passive 3D TVs, the TV has enough pixels to display either format in its entirety. The question now is: "Will one format look better than the other, assuming everything else is the same ?" As I currently don't own a 4K Passive 3D TV, I am unable to answer the question. I'm currently thinking of something that I'm not sure about. If we display a H-SBS content on a 4K TV, the horizontal resolution gets upscaled by 4. Similarly, if we display a H-OU content on a 4K TV, the vertical resolution gets upscaled by 4. Does it matter what gets upscaled ?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 14 Old 11-07-2016, 11:18 AM
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Sorry I don't have a straight forward recommendation:
Top-Bottom 3D vs. Side-by-Side on Passive Display
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post #3 of 14 Old 11-07-2016, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roussi View Post
Sorry I don't have a straight forward recommendation:
Top-Bottom 3D vs. Side-by-Side on Passive Display
Yes, but that thread doesn't mention anything about 4k, which is exactly what this thread is all about. You can see that I included paragraph 2 just to imply that I know the difference between H-SBS and H-OU on FHD Passive 3D TVs. It's "what happens when the TV is 4k " that I' interested in.
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post #4 of 14 Old 11-08-2016, 08:49 AM
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What matters is your source. If you're referring to Blu ray 3D on a passive 4K display, you'll get full 1080p to each eye the same as active 1080p.

If the source is a single frame (squeezed) either t/b or sbs it doesn't make any difference at 1080p since the overall pixel resolution is the same (1million pixels/eye), however I have been experimenting with t/b 4K3D and it is superior to SbS 4K3D on the same passive 4K 3D display. I don't know what happens on active displays that are 4K, supposedly 2014-15 Samsung sets were 2160p in 4K albeit half width so equal pixel resolution to an LG 4K 3D, you'd just have to feed it SbS not sure on other models, never tried.

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post #5 of 14 Old 11-08-2016, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
If the source is a single frame (squeezed) either t/b or sbs it doesn't make any difference at 1080p since the overall pixel resolution is the same (1million pixels/eye),
I understand that the overall pixel count is the same in either case. In the case of H-SBS, the TV needs to upscale the horizontal resolution from 960 to 3840. In the case of H-OU, the TV has to upscale the vertical resolution from 540 to 2160. The point I'm trying to make is the TV is working with a higher starting resolution in the case of H-SBS and so the upscaled picture might be a little bit sharper on the same screen size. It's like the difference between upscaling (by 2x) a 50x50 picture and a 1000x1000 picture. Even though the resolution of both images has been doubled, the 2000x2000 picture will look much better as it had more pixels to begin with. I hope you get the point I'm trying to make.

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. . . however I have been experimenting with t/b 4K3D and it is superior to SbS 4K3D on the same passive 4K 3D display . . .
Should it be obvious that t/b 4K3D on Passive 4K should be superior to SbS 4K3D for the same reason that t/b 3D is superior to SbS 3D on FHD3D ?
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post #6 of 14 Old 11-10-2016, 06:26 AM
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If you're referring to upscaling alone, no I can't see why that would make a difference. You need the native resolution to begin with, even a really good upscaler isn't going to make what's already there better.

I've experimented with 1080p on a 4K monitor. Looks exactly the same as 1080p on a 1080p monitor. And with t/b and sbs you're only expanding half the horizontal or width resolution to the entire screen resolution so it would only be a half improvement of something that no one would notice.

In theory t/b should be superior to SbS on a passive 4K 3D TV but it depends on the display. Sony models I don't believe will accept a t/b 4K source you have to use line alternate mode as I was told so t/b won't work on those, only LG. And active, in theory should receive a SbS signal but I don't know what happens when you display a 2160 full height file as I've never attempted. Supposedly Samsung models from -14 and 15 would see the full resolution as it has been attempted with 4K gaming. Other models may not display the full height so it really comes down to the hardware first. Some 4K PJ's won't accept a t/b signal higher than 1080p as has been reported here however they can do internal upscaling, but that's not the same as native resolution which will look noticeably better.

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post #7 of 14 Old 11-10-2016, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medwatt View Post
The point I'm trying to make is the TV is working with a higher starting resolution in the case of H-SBS and so the upscaled picture might be a little bit sharper on the same screen size.
Why is the resolution higher with SbS? The resolutions are exactly the same. If you send a 1920x1080 signal it doesn't matter if it's t/b or sbs the overall resolution is equal, what matters is the display at that point. On a 1080p passive you need to send a t/b or the signal will get further cut down if you use SbS which is why I made a post awhile back that Youtube 3D is wrong for using SbS. The default 3D mode should be T/B so that among 1080p screens the resolution will be equal as it doesn't matter what mode you send an active screen. However, either no one notices the difference or no one really cares as SbS is the main 3D mode on YT still. Some upload in T/B like myself and I also upload in SbS so it's Flash player friendly but it isn't that big of an issue to most it would seem on YT at least. Content and what you're searching for is most important, a slight improvement in visual quality among passive screens doesn't interest many.

On 4K passive screens it now doesn't matter either as it can play both 1080p t/b or SbS in native resolution same as 3D Blu ray. For 3D movies here locally I have switched from SbS to T/B although it doesn't matter on my main viewing screen which is active PJ, but the resolution will be equal on my older passive 1080p screen.

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post #8 of 14 Old 11-10-2016, 10:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Why is the resolution higher with SbS? The resolutions are exactly the same.
I know that when you consider both the vertical and horizontal resolutions the pixel count is the same. I meant the horizontal resolution is higher on SBS (960) vs the vertical resolution on T/B (540). I'm asking whether the 4K TV will upscale the SBS content better as 960 is larger than 540. I'm asking this because even though both SBS and T/B have the same pixel count, there's a larger difference between the horizontal and vertical resolutions on T/B content (1920 - 540 = 1380) vs SBS content (1080 - 960 = 120). Do you see the point I'm raising. I really hope you have the same content encoded in both format so that you can test whether there's a visible difference on 4K passive TVs.
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post #9 of 14 Old 11-10-2016, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by medwatt View Post
I know that when you consider both the vertical and horizontal resolutions the pixel count is the same. I meant the horizontal resolution is higher on SBS (960) vs the vertical resolution on T/B (540). I'm asking whether the 4K TV will upscale the SBS content better as 960 is larger than 540. I'm asking this because even though both SBS and T/B have the same pixel count, there's a larger difference between the horizontal and vertical resolutions on T/B content (1920 - 540 = 1380) vs SBS content (1080 - 960 = 120). Do you see the point I'm raising. I really hope you have the same content encoded in both format so that you can test whether there's a visible difference on 4K passive TVs.
Yes, SbS has greater horizontal resolution compared to t/b but t/b has greater vertical resolution, so they equal out. Again, depends on your display though. I've tested both t/b and SbS content on my passive 1080p and again on my active PJ, the results are that t/b is superior on the passive screen (which it should). Active it looks identical. Active can show the same amount of resolution whether it's encoded into SbS or t/b.

I'm not sure how you're calculating the difference between them. If you're using a single 1920x1080p frame there are only 2073600 pixels of resolution total and either way you divide it SbS or t/b it is the same to each eye which is half. There is no advantage to either so long as you have the ability to display all the pixels such as an active screen or 4K screen, passive you need t/b of course.

As for showing 1080p on a 4K screen, it's just upscaling it which I've never considered upscaling to improve picture quality and when you're talking about half the resolution that's being upscaled whether it's the vertical or horizontal it would be half as noticeable.

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post #10 of 14 Old 11-10-2016, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medwatt View Post
If we display a H-SBS content on a 4K TV, the horizontal resolution gets upscaled by 4. Similarly, if we display a H-OU content on a 4K TV, the vertical resolution gets upscaled by 4. Does it matter what gets upscaled ?

Thanks.
If you're just asking if it makes any difference which way it's upscaled, no. SbS or t/b are the same on a 4K TV and same on active. It's only ever matter on a passive screen which t/b would look better. But with 4K I use t/b since the passive screen is limited to 1080p for each eye and then I can get 3840x1080p per eye which is half 4K3D but noticeably better than 1080p. If I render 1920x2160 it will discard the extra resolution so it would only use 1920x1080p, again this is 4K resolution. 1080p I don't see any difference on my 1080p active PJ or my 4K LG passive so you can use either.

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post #11 of 14 Old 11-10-2016, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
If you're just asking if it makes any difference which way it's upscaled, no. SbS or t/b are the same on a 4K TV and same on active. It's only ever matter on a passive screen which t/b would look better. But with 4K I use t/b since the passive screen is limited to 1080p for each eye and then I can get 3840x1080p per eye which is half 4K3D but noticeably better than 1080p. If I render 1920x2160 it will discard the extra resolution so it would only use 1920x1080p, again this is 4K resolution. 1080p I don't see any difference on my 1080p active PJ or my 4K LG passive so you can use either.
Thanks for replying to my posts. Let's end this with a final question. Please not that I'm talking about:
1. 4K Passive 3D TVs, not FHD Passive 3D TVs.
2. FHD 3D movies (1920x540 and 960x1080), not 4K3D.

Can you tell a difference between a similarly encoded H-T/B and H-SBS on a 4K Passive 3D screen? I can send you some test files if you like.


PS: I've already placed an order for the LG 65UH8500 and it won't be delivered until the end of the month.
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post #12 of 14 Old 11-13-2016, 11:00 AM
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Does H-SBS or H-OU matter with 4K TVs Passive 3D

I read you use T/B for blu ray movies and SBS for 3D movies on cable. I follow that depending on what I'm watching


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post #13 of 14 Old 10-02-2017, 06:03 PM
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I read somewhere that people are more sensitive to vertical resolution than horizontal. So Half SBS should be slightly better.
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post #14 of 14 Old 10-03-2017, 03:33 AM
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I wanted to chime in some time ago. Now it's time to express my opinion.
If you start from "low-resolution files", like 1920x540 or 960x1080, there should not be large differences concerning the 2D resolution, but over-under format offers slight advantage. Higher horizontal resolution of 3D files also means 2x better gradation of 3D depth in the final 3D picture. Therefore, the "depth" should be more smooth in over/under version. Since we are talking about 3D videos, overall, over/under version wins.
However, if you come upon full side-by-side or full over-under version of the movie in HD or higher resolution, it's more than obvious that you should make 4K over-under version (3840x1080 per eye) in order to enjoy the highest quality on passive 3D screens.

So, the short answer is: stick to over/under version.

Damir
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