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post #61 of 110 Old 07-07-2017, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
For Vuze VP 13 might work but might have to upgrade to 14, not sure, I haven't worked with the VR stuff. I think you're limited to 3840x1920 render max, the source file is 3840x3840 square AR? Yes, I recall when I used my VR goggles the images were square, I didn't really care for it at the time and haven't used them since. The screen door effect was really awful and the square image. I might check out the 4K goggles here at some point, reviews suggest they do pretty good to remove screen door effect that lower resolution goggles produce. Really, 13 should be able to at least edit the files, since it can handle up to 4096x4096 but render output you can't go that tall.

For 3D (not VR 3D), pairing in 4K is really the same as before. I set project properties to 3840x2160 and use t/b. I pair files on the timeline after they've been aligned for two camera rig.

Media offline, I recall you had that problem, I think it has to be either VP doesn't like the files or you have low system resources.
Tom the VR pixel ratio is too complicated to discuss here in one post, but simply stated it doesn't have to be square, in fact, I use 2:1 ratio. The raw images look like little circles. The 3D is 4 circles. But when viewed in flat screen it is equirectangular 2:1 AR where the left and right sides are adjacent in a 360° circle. That just for starters. The editor like Vegas Pro can edit the equirectangular 2:1 image but titles and transitions won't work. A good VR editor uses equirectangular presentation for the slice and dice and then you switch to the flat screen window view to judge the result. In addition to that, you can connect real VR goggles with hdmi connection to see how the goggles view will work. This does not work with the cheap Google Cardboard or other smart phone goggles since there is no hdmi connection. So, while Vegas can technically slixe and dice the VR camera stitched images, it can't do much else. PD15, and Adobe Premiere Pro are the editors to use wuth Adobe Premiere Pro offering all you need now to edit VR.

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post #62 of 110 Old 07-07-2017, 06:50 AM
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4K with 3D displays, whatever is in stores right now will be it. Once they're gone, you'll only find them used or closeouts next year. The smallest LG is 55" which use to be around $1200 then the 65" which was $1800, the OLED's ran about $3500-$6K a few models were more if you needed those couple extra inches. They used to have a 49" which I have, I really didn't want to go any bigger because of where it is and what it's for.

4K goggles would be the cheapest way to view but I don't know how it will display on those since it isn't in VR 3D format. Not sure how the goggles display per eye if it's 3840x1920 then the image will be squashed (if viewing a regular 4K 3D image not VR 3D).

Actually, there's the glasses-free flat panels which run about $6K and they render 3D up to 2160p or so they say but for the most part by this time next year all the major manufacturers will not have any 3D models. Projectors, I know Benq just released some new 1080p models with 3D so they're not done yet, but no 4K DLP so I'll likely stick with what I have.
Tom, I saw one report recently that LG is manufacturing 1000 3D 4K TV sets per day now. As I said it's not that they aren't being made, it's only that you won't find them in US B&M stores ( for now) When the fools who sell electronics learn what 3D is and get a sales attitude as opposed to claiming it is too hard to deal with as opposed to 20th century technology, then you will need to go to Asia or Europe for buying the 3D TV's.

Your opinion on how VR is displayed needs to be educated. You really don't understand the concept. You keep thinking in flat environment while VR is viewing the image from the center of the inside of a spherical globe. What you see is the same as you normally see the world around you. The key advantage is that you can turn your head up down and all around and your field of view follows it. There is nothing squished. The big problem is since you are only viewing a fraction of the surface area of the inside of a sphere at a time, the resolution is limited. I may get the new iphone for my cheap goggles if it is true 4K screen as rumored to be, but I won't spend the big bucks on real VR goggles until they are 8K screens minimum so the viewing window is at least 2K in resolution.

Anyway, I won't be getting a 3D 4K TV here until next year when I budget for a new updated computer to do 4K 3D editing. And all this expense is based on a continued robust stock market as I have no other way to pay for it. This is an expensive hobby! And your work with the twin AX100's has me curious to build a twin AX53. More $$!

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post #63 of 110 Old 07-07-2017, 08:23 AM
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Your opinion on how VR is displayed needs to be educated. You really don't understand the concept. You keep thinking in flat environment while VR is viewing the image from the center of the inside of a spherical globe. What you see is the same as you normally see the world around you. The key advantage is that you can turn your head up down and all around and your field of view follows it. There is nothing squished. The big problem is since you are only viewing a fraction of the surface area of the inside of a sphere at a time, the resolution is limited. I may get the new iphone for my cheap goggles if it is true 4K screen as rumored to be, but I won't spend the big bucks on real VR goggles until they are 8K screens minimum so the viewing window is at least 2K in resolution.

Anyway, I won't be getting a 3D 4K TV here until next year when I budget for a new updated computer to do 4K 3D editing. And all this expense is based on a continued robust stock market as I have no other way to pay for it. This is an expensive hobby! And your work with the twin AX100's has me curious to build a twin AX53. More $$!
As I said, I don't work with VR and haven't spent any time learning about it. Personally, I think it's far more niche than 3D and don't like wearing the headset. Not really sure if I'll get into it or not, right now I'll just stick with regular 3D, till they get better resolution like you said at least.

Dual AX53's might work, really since you can't get genlock just pushing both start buttons would be same result, might be able to zoom sync with the app for longer distances, I don't think Sony has zoom indicators other than a bar so that would be important to get them right. Just have to stay away from faster moving subjects or at least keep more distance.

Only problem I have is I can't have I.S. on or it will wobble the frames for 3D as they're not in sync so that has to stay off always so really have to keep cameras stable by hand. But all the other camera settings stay in perfect sync which has really good results so they're the same in both eyes, like gain auto shutter white balance and ND filters, of course you can always lock in on manual. Nothing compares with the ease of just using the Z10k or other 3D camcorder but the visual results with 4K is beyond comparison so I want to shoot everything in 4K and it sucks because it's eating up a lot of storage space, oh well.

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post #64 of 110 Old 07-07-2017, 08:35 AM
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Well, I mentioned the LG 55" LED and 65" but it seems Best Buy no longer has those in stock, just OLED models. Looks like Amazon still has them, so you can still get them. Using the older 49" here it's a little smaller, I have to be about 5 feet back for 3D on it when editing so 55" model would require a little more room probably 6 feet at least, also you can't have display set to 4K in VP for 3D while editing, it won't display 3D right if you do so it's just for viewing 3D after it's rendered.

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post #65 of 110 Old 07-09-2017, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Maybe I didn't make my self clear about 4K 3D anaglyph. I was talking about taking two 4K L/R stereo files and creating one 2D 4K anaglyph file--and yes each frame would simply be a 4K image in anaglyph. But it should represent a fairly good 4K representation to the eyes. And yes, red will be a problem, but you might be able to change the red channel to a slight grey-red as in Dubois anaglyph so the red still shows up. The best method is yellow/blue for color and you get the glasses from Amazon. Problem with this method is your projector has to have a lot of lumens to pull it off. I tried with a yellow/blue 3D converter that I have, but it's dark. The colors seem to be better, though. Yes, poorman's 3D, but when all else fails and you have a 2D 4K projector, then....
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post #66 of 110 Old 07-09-2017, 08:12 PM
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Maybe I didn't make my self clear about 4K 3D anaglyph. I was talking about taking two 4K L/R stereo files and creating one 2D 4K anaglyph file--and yes each frame would simply be a 4K image in anaglyph. But it should represent a fairly good 4K representation to the eyes. And yes, red will be a problem, but you might be able to change the red channel to a slight grey-red as in Dubois anaglyph so the red still shows up. The best method is yellow/blue for color and you get the glasses from Amazon. Problem with this method is your projector has to have a lot of lumens to pull it off. I tried with a yellow/blue 3D converter that I have, but it's dark. The colors seem to be better, though. Yes, poorman's 3D, but when all else fails and you have a 2D 4K projector, then....
That's what I assumed you meant. I have viewed this in VP before just setting project to anaglyph and enabling full screen on my 2D 4K ASUS monitor, but haven't rendered anything in 4K anaglyph output for the reasons I mentioned. I'll render out something and upload it. I only have the red/blue glasses.

I was doing this before I added my 4K passive screen, but just for editing purposes not output and yes the detail is all there in 4K, just looks ugly color-wise.

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post #67 of 110 Old 07-10-2017, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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I was doing this before I added my 4K passive screen, but just for editing purposes not output and yes the detail is all there in 4K, just looks ugly color-wise.
I have tinkered with anaglyph stills and noticed that making slight changes to the color wheel can pseudo enhance colors to bring them into reasonable representations. See these: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4172617
Click on a pic and choose full screen to fill up your monitor.
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post #68 of 110 Old 07-10-2017, 09:58 AM
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Nice! The Fuji is my favorite 3D still camera.

You have a passive 4K LG, right? I think on those the built in YT app will play the 4K files. On my older 2014 model it will only allow 720p because it's not VP9 compatible so I have to use web browser and send it to screen to play anything over 720p. You should be able to play top/bottom format in 4K, might have to manually enable top/bottom mode.

Here's a direct comparison between the two formats:

Sample 4K3D clips in anaglyph:

Sample 4K3D clips in top/bottom:

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post #69 of 110 Old 07-11-2017, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I didn't get a chance to watch these on my 4K tv, but the T/B in full color wins on my 1080p monitor, no contest...interesting subject matter...
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post #70 of 110 Old 07-17-2017, 04:59 AM
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"BenQ will update the W11000/X12000 (firmware update by the end of this year) and make them HDR and 3D."


BenQ X12000

"It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiased opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiased opinion is always absolutely valueless." Oscar Wilde
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post #71 of 110 Old 07-17-2017, 10:16 AM
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So the X11000 and x12000 are both only half 4K resolution with pixel doubling and cost $8k and $12k? The Optoma UHD60/65 does the same thing and is priced at 2000-2500, not 3D but still. At that price they should be true 4K.

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post #72 of 110 Old 07-17-2017, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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So the X11000 and x12000 are both only half 4K resolution with pixel doubling and cost $8k and $12k? The Optoma UHD60/65 does the same thing and is priced at 2000-2500, not 3D but still. At that price they should be true 4K.
Tom, agreed, but if they can do 3D using the TI-chip, then so can Optoma--and that's what we should be pushing for.

However, Optoma and TI would argue that the TI-chip is true 4k(8meg pixels) as far as eye perception is concerned, and this seems to bear out well in this Sony vs. Optoma projector comparison.
For the price, of course. Hopefully, Optoma will work out 3D for the chip and include it in the future. Having another company do that should be an incentive...well I can hope....

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post #73 of 110 Old 07-20-2017, 09:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Art has posted his review of the Optoma UHD65: http://www.projectorreviews.com/opto...jector-review/

He does make a good point that due to the large pixel size of the TI-chip used, the effective 8meg image cannot be as sharp as a native 4K projector such as the Sony, with smaller pixels. So it's really not 4K in a true sense--that we knew, but the effective pixel size is a new issue maybe that says the Epson 5040UB, might still be a good option if they ever get the crosstalk issue with 3D resolved.

My dream was/is to have a 4K 2D projector along with a 1080p 3D projector for the best of both worlds. Well, I was able to purchase a returned UHD65 from a dealer for cheap--less than $2k. So I'm going to test it out the next week and see if it's worth having two projectors. If not, I might return it. One concern is that reviews say it isn't bright enough for big screens. I have a Dalite Highpower 2.5 gain, so I'll see quickly if that's an issue. For 3D 2200 lumens would just not work, but for 2D should be okay, as my old projector was rated at 2200 lumens and that was bright enough for 2D.
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post #74 of 110 Old 07-20-2017, 02:46 PM
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The thing about these half resolution 4K PJ's is that a few years from now, they won't exist and if you did buy one you'll want to upgrade again to true 4K. They will all be true 4K and why would you want something that's half 4K? For the price I would sooner pick up the Optoma vs the 8-12k BenQ but I will keep waiting until the prices are under 2K for a true 4K projector. I'm in no hurry. For movies 1080p looks fine to me, I still pick up a lot of Blu rays, I don't buy UHD discs yet accept where it's bundled with the 3D disc. I'm not even watching movies on my 4K LG.

A half resolution 4K projector would be like sending a 720p single on a 1080p screen when you have the option of sending 1080p as well.

For crosstalk, I think DLP is the way to go, LCD PJ's probably aren't going to come close and the 3D option is likely going away on most 4K PJ's.

JVC DLA-X550R this one is old now, 2015 model, it supports 3D, it's not true 4K either, basically boosting the image to 4K on alternating chips, not direct 4K but can be picked up for 2000 now. So if you want one that does both in one projector this would be one, but it's fairly old now.

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post #75 of 110 Old 07-20-2017, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Tom, I'm one of those people that has to tinker, so I will be looking that the Optoma UHD65 as a tinkertoy . If I like it I will keep it, but without 4K programming other than bluray and some YouTube, it seems a little premature for me since I already have a nice 3D projector. But, I'm always curious...dang that cat in me.... That said, I can't afford myself, so I won't be doing anything bigger than this for a long time.
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post #76 of 110 Old 07-23-2017, 03:56 AM
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Bob, my story is similar to yours where I had the BenQ 1075 and was blown away by the 3D picture, I never really understood why other people didn't love 3D like I did . If I could get an incredible 3D picture on this cheaper projector how good would be on a expensive projector. So I bought the Sony HW40ES after reading reviews saying great 3D. This behemoth of a Lcd projector had a really terrible 3D picture it had bad cross talk like you said if it was the only 3D I had known I would have said it was possibly ok but coming from dlp I knew better, After telling myself for months that it must be just a setting I finally came to the conclusion that it had to go so I sold it.

After digging through many AV threads discovered that crosstalk is a problem that most displays face and only dlp projectors are crosstalk free, but this is not widely talked about. With most people with their LCD displays, thinking that this is the best 3D gets. And most people even enthusiasts saying "I like 3D but I don't really care if it disappears."

And I think this is why 3D failed.




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post #77 of 110 Old 07-23-2017, 04:33 AM
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I was also hanging out for the UHD 60 for quite a long time and was totally gutted to find out that it didn't support 3D.
I know you mentioned this before. The downside with dlp is that due to the way the technology works it can only have a max of around around 2000:1 real world contrast ratio.
So $2,000 for a 2000:1 contrast ratio projector something to think about. With no 3D!
Concerning the resolution if my memory serves I read something about that the UHD 60 only has 2K mirrors but each mirror displays two individual pixels so you get 4K individual pixels on screen. Which is true 4K.
Not sure I understand you about the size of the pixel affecting the display quality ?

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post #78 of 110 Old 07-23-2017, 07:04 AM
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After digging through many AV threads discovered that crosstalk is a problem that most displays face and only dlp projectors are crosstalk free, but this is not widely talked about. With most people with their LCD displays, thinking that this is the best 3D gets. And most people even enthusiasts saying "I like 3D but I don't really care if it disappears."

And I think this is why 3D failed.
I would tend to agree. And I think that the technical challenge of trying to minimize crosstalk is a major reason for very few* of the latest model HDR flat panel displays offering 3D.

In a consumer HDR display, it does not appear to be possible with current technology, and at a reasonable price, to provide the following all at the same time: very bright peak whites, very dark blacks, and ghost-free 3D.

_______

* Notably Panasonic EX780 and Sony ZD9.

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post #79 of 110 Old 07-23-2017, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is my review of the Optoma UHD65 4K projector compared to my Optoma HD29Darbee 1080p projector. The HD29 has Darbee processing to improve the image and that does make a difference, especially for blurays, but not so much for regular TV. The pics I've included are from a YouTube 4K video, which I will explain later.

To set the stage, I have the HD29 mounted on the ceiling and the UHD65 set on the floor almost directly underneath the HD29. Both projectors use full zoom to get the biggest image and set closest to the screen as possible. My screen is a Dalite HighPower 159" 2.5 gain screen. It is retro-reflective--meaning the reflected light tends to reflect back to the source. Since I sit lower than the HD29 and higher than the UHD65, the brightness back to me is about the same for each projector. The UHD65 was set on HDR normal brightness mode, and the HD29 was set on ECO brightness mode. Both are set to about the same brightness and contrast to the eye.

First, I hooked up Xfinity cable to the UHD65 and was surprised by the upscaled image. While it was very clear, it was soft and smooth looking. When standing next to the screen, I could barely see the individual pixels as the dithering caused by the shifting TI chip made the image smoother. I didn't like the image. While I could see more detail, I also lost definition in objects like grass, and peoples faces up close. Where I could clearly see the pores on peoples faces, I could no longer see that with the UHD65. I tried to watch the golf match, but just didn't like the smoothness. I tried to increase sharpness, but that didn't help either. I then tried to watch another channel with a movie, and that was awful as it smeared fine lines. This is probably due to the cable not sending a true 1080p image and the upscaling of the UHD65. I switched back to my HD29 and that was easier to watch. Others might like this smooth image, especially if you never have had a 1080p DLP before, but I did not. So that was the first strike.

I then hooked up a 4K Samsung K8500 bluray player to the UHD65 and a Sony high-end bluray to my HD29. I had a friend, who is not a video fanatic and knows little about projection TV, as a second opinion. We watched several 4K Youtubes on the UDH65 and were wow'd by them. I checked to make sure that the projector was seeing 4K and it was. I then turned off the UHD65 and turned on the HD29, and loaded the same 4K youtube videos, which got downscaled to 1080p/60fps. I had my back turned initially, and my friend said, "I thought you were going to show these on your other projector?" I said, it is on the other projector. I turned around, and was baffled. The video didn't look that much different. There was a slight edging problem with diagonal lines as I've always seen on 1080p projectors, but other than that, the video was as satisfying as the 4K video on the UHD65. I gave that a big, "Hmmm." Strike two.

We then watched some scenes from 4K Passengers on the UHD65, and it was great but smooth looking. Then I switched to a 2D 1080p bluray of Passengers on the HD29. Again, we didn't see that much difference and the UHD65 image came off as too smooth looking for my taste. We then watched Passengers in 3D on the HD29 and were convinced that that was much better than watching the 4K 2D version on either projector. Score one for 1080p 3D!

I then set up a compare of a 4K youtube SpaceStation glide through and took some cellphone pics from my Samsung 8. Because of shooting in the dark, I lost some sharpness, so take that into consideration. I did note that the UHD65 pics showed more color variation than the HD29, so that was one plus for it. The dark contrast was about the same for both, and I did not see any advantage to HDR as well. The first two emblem images below were taken about 1 foot from the screen. It's obvious which is the UHD65 image. You can barely see the pixels, whereas in the HD29 image, they are very prominent. From our seating position of about 16 feet away, the emblems looked the same. Neither were readable at that distance, but looked like they had the same definition. You will see in the two compares where there is an overlay of the schematic of the space station abd the HD29 does a reasonable job of defining the lines as well as the UHD65. Visually from 16 feet, we couldn't tell much difference in the images. There is a lot going on there as well with all the wires and mash of objects everywhere. If you zoom in on the images, you will definitely see there is more detail in the UHD65 images, but at 16 feet, we were not seeing it.

Final conclusion: I'm sending the UHD65 back. I was going to possibly use it for upscaled 1080p along with the HD29 for 3D, but the upscaled 1080p is a waste of money. I have a 60" 4K passive 3D LG in our living room, and it does a much better job of making normal cable look like 4K, possibly because of the size difference in images, but more likely because of the lack of dithering with the TI chip, which must take 1 1080p pixel and divide it into 4 discrete 4K pixels, which, along with dithering the pixels adds an element of smoothness rather than definition. This just proves to me that a true 4K panel like the Sony is the way to go, so I will be waiting for the future of an inexpensive true 4K with 3D projector.

I'm beginning to think the reason Optoma and others have not implemented 3D on the new 4K XPR projectors is the fact the a 1080p 3D image can't be created properly using the x-shift without making the image soft, which would be awful for 3D.
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post #80 of 110 Old 07-23-2017, 04:17 PM
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Great review Bob, thanks so much an unbiased review like this is incredibly valuable to us interested in upgrading .

I'm very surprised that you couldn't tell the difference in resolution between the two and frankly disappointed. I was hoping 4K would be huge jump in quality and hoping it's just the way they have implemented the 4K that is the problem. Like you said.

Also good to confirm no discernible change in contrast.

Looking forward to more 4k options in 2017. But sadly, looks like, no 3D ones.

Bob, why do you believe that 3D is coming back in the near future?




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post #81 of 110 Old 07-24-2017, 06:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Bob, why do you believe that 3D is coming back in the near future?
I'm implying that when companies come up with a cheap true 4K chip, then a better implementation of 3D on these projectors is possible and more likely implemented. We'll see. As I stated, though, my biggest surprise was how the Optoma UHD65 handled cable signal upscaling. Since that just doesn't look as good as it should (to me, anyway), then the only real venue for 4K projectors is 4K bluray, and it's going to take a lot of 4K movies to make that practical as well.
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I'm implying that when companies come up with a cheap true 4K chip, then a better implementation of 3D on these projectors is possible and more likely implemented. We'll see. As I stated, though, my biggest surprise was how the Optoma UHD65 handled cable signal upscaling. Since that just doesn't look as good as it should (to me, anyway), then the only real venue for 4K projectors is 4K bluray, and it's going to take a lot of 4K movies to make that practical as well.
Bob, not spending too much time on internet here while traveling, but did look at your pics you uploaded.

Your red/blue needs vertical calibration on the U65 projector which is why you have the red and blue outlines on the white ZAR in that image. Look for a calibration adjustment in your menu. I think if you do that calibration your U65 will be considerably sharper.

There is also a need for horizontal calib ration too. I see red outline on one side of white and blue on the other.


I had a similar problem with my Sony and that adjustment sharpened up the softness with amazed gentlemen quality improvement.

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Don Landis HT System: Projector Sony VPL VW665ES Players: Samsung UBD K8500 OPPO BD93 Sony BDP S6200 All Regions Player Denon AVR 4311ci, 7.1 JBL Professional series and Klipsch PS3, XBOX360, Dish VIP722K; 3D Edit Suite: Edius7.53, Vegas Pro v13, Power Director15, i7-950, LG 3D TV DM2752

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Tom the VR pixel ratio is too complicated to discuss here in one post, but simply stated it doesn't have to be square, in fact, I use 2:1 ratio. The raw images look like little circles. The 3D is 4 circles. But when viewed in flat screen it is equirectangular 2:1 AR where the left and right sides are adjacent in a 360° circle. That just for starters. The editor like Vegas Pro can edit the equirectangular 2:1 image but titles and transitions won't work. A good VR editor uses equirectangular presentation for the slice and dice and then you switch to the flat screen window view to judge the result. In addition to that, you can connect real VR goggles with hdmi connection to see how the goggles view will work. This does not work with the cheap Google Cardboard or other smart phone goggles since there is no hdmi connection. So, while Vegas can technically slixe and dice the VR camera stitched images, it can't do much else. PD15, and Adobe Premiere Pro are the editors to use wuth Adobe Premiere Pro offering all you need now to edit VR.
FFMPEG has a setting for equi-angular cubemaps which represent the best stereo 360 encoding format, since it has equal pixel density no matter where you look. Equirectangular has enormous distortion near the poles.

The best 3D 360 encoding in theory would account for the fact that in the distance, parallax is practically zero so it would be better to have a left-eye master + delta encoding for the right eye. This will require a new codec but it's being worked on.

I should also say that while people are looking into 6K and 8K video, it's pointless on current VR headsets because they are closer to 11 degrees per pixel which is nearly 4K. Going beyond that is simply wasting pixels and bandwidth better used to increase the bitrate and/or colour depth (10-bit colour encodes better, less noisy / less dithering). Of course then it all comes down to HEVC royalties and here VP9 looks like a better contender for 4K video but for some silly reason people are still using H264 everywhere, leaving half their quality on the table (or paying 2x too much for the same quality).
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post #84 of 110 Old 07-24-2017, 07:23 PM
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Art has posted his review of the Optoma UHD65: http://www.projectorreviews.com/opto...jector-review/

He does make a good point that due to the large pixel size of the TI-chip used, the effective 8meg image cannot be as sharp as a native 4K projector such as the Sony, with smaller pixels. So it's really not 4K in a true sense--that we knew, but the effective pixel size is a new issue maybe that says the Epson 5040UB, might still be a good option if they ever get the crosstalk issue with 3D resolved.

My dream was/is to have a 4K 2D projector along with a 1080p 3D projector for the best of both worlds. Well, I was able to purchase a returned UHD65 from a dealer for cheap--less than $2k. So I'm going to test it out the next week and see if it's worth having two projectors. If not, I might return it. One concern is that reviews say it isn't bright enough for big screens. I have a Dalite Highpower 2.5 gain, so I'll see quickly if that's an issue. For 3D 2200 lumens would just not work, but for 2D should be okay, as my old projector was rated at 2200 lumens and that was bright enough for 2D.

I started a thread about the Epson 5040/6040 crosstalk issue a few months ago. I returned my 6040 and received a brand new one and the problem was solved. I believe that a few were sold that were bad as the Epson technician had said.

...finally retired and spending time in my HT!!!

Equipment consists of: Epson 6040 3D/4K UB Projector(ISFed); 110" 16x9 Dalite HD Progressive Screen; Samsung 3D/4K K8500 Player; Definitive Speakers (Center, Towers, Rears); Earthquake P12 sub; Onkyo 608 A/V Receiver; MX990 Remote; 5 Bello chairs; Coaire Mini-split A/C.
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Bob, not spending too much time on internet here while traveling, but did look at your pics you uploaded.

Your red/blue needs vertical calibration on the U65 projector which is why you have the red and blue outlines on the white ZAR in that image. Look for a calibration adjustment in your menu. I think if you do that calibration your U65 will be considerably sharper.

There is also a need for horizontal calib ration too. I see red outline on one side of white and blue on the other.


I had a similar problem with my Sony and that adjustment sharpened up the softness with amazed gentlemen quality improvement.
I checked that out and it seemed ok. I think what you are seeing is because it's at the end of image and the lens does have flair. Also the dithering of the TI chip seems to cause some of that as well. But you bring up a good issue. I wonder if others have noticed there is a CMS control to adjust color pixels.
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post #86 of 110 Old 07-25-2017, 08:51 AM
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Bob, not spending too much time on internet here while traveling, but did look at your pics you uploaded.

Your red/blue needs vertical calibration on the U65 projector which is why you have the red and blue outlines on the white ZAR in that image. Look for a calibration adjustment in your menu. I think if you do that calibration your U65 will be considerably sharper.

There is also a need for horizontal calib ration too. I see red outline on one side of white and blue on the other.


I had a similar problem with my Sony and that adjustment sharpened up the softness with amazed gentlemen quality improvement.
I checked that out and it seemed ok. I think what you are seeing is because it's at the end of image and the lens does have flair. Also the dithering of the TI chip seems to cause some of that as well. But you bring up a good issue. I wonder if others have noticed there is a CMS control to adjust color pixels.
Bob sorry for the spelling. Hope you understood the instructions on convergence. The iPhone spell checker changed some words. You do need to recalibrate that red and blue for better sharpness. Obvious to me that is your softness problem. Should be home on Friday.
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post #87 of 110 Old 07-25-2017, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Bob sorry for the spelling. Hope you understood the instructions on convergence. The iPhone spell checker changed some words. You do need to recalibrate that red and blue for better sharpness. Obvious to me that is your softness problem. Should be home on Friday.
Thanks, Don. Maybe that would have made a difference, but there were other factors that I just couldn't justify right now. I just didn't think that having two projectors made sense, since my HD29Darbee already does a great job of clearing up common issues with 1080p. Still waiting for 3D video of your latest travels....
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post #88 of 110 Old 07-25-2017, 10:14 AM
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FFMPEG has a setting for equi-angular cubemaps which represent the best stereo 360 encoding format, since it has equal pixel density no matter where you look. Equirectangular has enormous distortion near the poles.

The best 3D 360 encoding in theory would account for the fact that in the distance, parallax is practically zero so it would be better to have a left-eye master + delta encoding for the right eye. This will require a new codec but it's being worked on.

I should also say that while people are looking into 6K and 8K video, it's pointless on current VR headsets because they are closer to 11 degrees per pixel which is nearly 4K. Going beyond that is simply wasting pixels and bandwidth better used to increase the bitrate and/or colour depth (10-bit colour encodes better, less noisy / less dithering). Of course then it all comes down to HEVC royalties and here VP9 looks like a better contender for 4K video but for some silly reason people are still using H264 everywhere, leaving half their quality on the table (or paying 2x too much for the same quality).
I still use h.264 myself. I can't speak for VR work, mainly my Blu ray library and 3D work I do, but I've tested H.265 and it takes about twice as long to render on my 12-core Mac Pro and sometimes the files are unplayable. This is with handbrake app. I've downloaded some sample h.265 files rendered by someone else and they all seem to play ok, but there is sometimes a lag in startup after un-pausing playback. This would be on a i5 dual core mac mini setup for Plex HT, I think h.265 will require a little newer hardware. Based on some results in compression, it did make use of larger space saving, but for now I will stick with h.264 for pretty much everything. I don't mind the larger files and compression time is manageable at least. Don't have to wait so long and listen to the fans kicked up on high on my edit machine.

Off topic, one other thing I've noticed about handbrake is that after compressing output from a Vegas Pro top/bottom 3D file is that it seems to create some weird aliasing that isn't present in the VP output. It doesn't do this with regular 2D files, I've only just noticed it with top/bottom and maybe side by side. I use 100mbit setting for UHD top/bottom output to keep things on par with the XVAC-S files, then a custom h.264 60 mbit render in handbrake to get the bit rate down so it will play smoothly and reduce file size but I've begun to notice aliasing which looks quite bad. Handbrake does a better job of compressing than setting VP output to a lower bitrate but unfortunately it's also mucking up 3D files. I need to do some more comparisons but it seems handbrake isn't going to work, may have to set VP to lower bit rate instead. v.13 doesn't have h.265 would have to upgrade to v.14.

Yes, royalties are going to be a problem with most upgrading, also hardware which my edit machine is fine as long as files are on SSD drive but over my network with slow storage drives, I've already had problems with UHD files in h.264 so I think UHD files will be point of use for awhile. Handbrake has a VP9 setting, I don't see many custom options with it, I'll have to look at it some more and run a few tests with it. I will say the YT uploads look fairly good for about a 10:1 compression scheme.

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You can output TIFFs or PNGs and use FFMPEG to do your H265 encoding for you if handbrake is giving you problems. I worked in a VR film studio for a while and FFMPEG was doing all the heavy lifting (after editing / stitching / compositing steps obviously).

H264 is wasting customer bandwidth and quality. If VP9 is an option, I'd go for that. Or really, have multiple encodes. I know my GTX 960 can barely decode high bitrate HEVC files without dropping frames, so it definitely makes sense to have two tiers during this transition period.
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post #90 of 110 Old 07-25-2017, 01:14 PM
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I haven't used ffmpeg since 10 years ago or so, before h.264 came around, then I switched to handbrake. I'm not sure that it's really wasting quality in my case, h.264 is still very good. If I have rendered files on SSD drive, I can play the camera's 100mbit XAVC-S files back ok without dropping frames but my edit machine is the only machine I have that can do it.

Also of course XAVC-S is a consumer codec and far from what is capable for 4K so I don't think there's that big of a drop. The files are already h.264 8-bit, if they were 200 plus bit rate or h.265 10 bit then yeah, it's going to take a drop in quality. I don't have anything that films in 10 bit yet so I won't worry about it yet.

Most consumer cameras are still 8 bit with the exception of the GH4/GH5, so really it would just be in the professional market right now. H.265 is also more processor hungry vs h.264 so anyone with older hardware really shouldn't use it yet.

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