Ask the Editors: How Can I Reduce 3D Crosstalk From a Projector? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 28 Old 03-17-2017, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Ask the Editors: How Can I Reduce 3D Crosstalk From a Projector?

Matt's Epson Pro Cinema 6010 projector exhibits lots of 3D crosstalk, more than he saw in his previous sample of the same model. What can he do about it?

http://www.avsforum.com/can-reduce-3...r-ask-editors/
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post #2 of 28 Old 03-17-2017, 03:44 PM
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No one else has said it yet so I will

Buy a DLP.

But, in all seriousness, strange that there's such a difference between production models.
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post #3 of 28 Old 03-17-2017, 03:59 PM
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I'd bet the glasses are not working at the same frequency as the projector and therefore are either the wrong type or not compatible. If either eye shutter does not close at the right instant, crosstalk occurs. Try different glasses or get an RF emitter vs. IR emitter. These projectors are just too good for this kind of issue. Other issues might include sitting to close to the screen, too much zoom on the image, causing too much separation of the images--they should be no more than 2.5" apart at infinity to avoid eyes turning out when viewing and other issues. Having fluorescent lights on in the area can cause issues as well, as they flicker like glasses do, but the eyes don't know that, but the glasses will.
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post #4 of 28 Old 03-17-2017, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
No one else has said it yet so I will

Buy a DLP.

But, in all seriousness, strange that there's such a difference between production models.
I owned a DLP, yeeeeeuck, that's why I spent $4000 on this LCD projector.
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post #5 of 28 Old 03-17-2017, 04:12 PM
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I owned a DLP, yeeeeeuck, that's why I spent $4000 on this LCD projector.
Poor black levels?
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post #6 of 28 Old 03-17-2017, 04:16 PM
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I'd bet the glasses are not working at the same frequency as the projector and therefore are either the wrong type or not compatible. If either eye shutter does not close at the right instant, crosstalk occurs. Try different glasses or get an RF emitter vs. IR emitter. These projectors are just too good for this kind of issue. Other issues might include sitting to close to the screen, too much zoom on the image, causing too much separation of the images--they should be no more than 2.5" apart at infinity to avoid eyes turning out when viewing and other issues. Having fluorescent lights on in the area can cause issues as well, as they flicker like glasses do, but the eyes don't know that, but the glasses will.
Point by point:
  • I'm using the supplied Epson glasses.
    RF is not an option, as IR is built in. I am also using the Epson external IR emitter- but in the course of my own testing, there's no improvement when switching between the internal emitter and external emitter.
    Zoom is set to accommodate a 110" screen, 16' from the projector... not and excessive zoom level, I don't think. I could be wrong.
    I sit about 10 ft from the screen. Not unreasonable.
    Zero fluorescent lighting here.

I'm pretty good at troubleshooting, if I may say so myself. Ultimately, I blame the projector, because the crosstalk problem escalated to "Annoying enough that I can't watch 3D anymore" with the replacement for my originally purchased model was dutifully provided under warranty. No other factors changed in the 24 hour cycle - thanks to Epson's excellent overnight replacement program.
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post #7 of 28 Old 03-17-2017, 04:19 PM
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Poor black levels?
Rainbow effect. Jittery image. Will never go back to DLP... tho it was technically sharper., real world experience is that the pixels blend at a reasonable viewing distance.
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post #8 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Buckmasta View Post
Point by point:
  • Zoom is set to accommodate a 110" screen, 16' from the projector... not and excessive zoom level, I don't think. I could be wrong.
    I sit about 10 ft from the screen. Not unreasonable.
    Zero fluorescent lighting here.

.
Hmm, projector is way back in the room and you sit close. Is the crosstalk better or worse as you move further back toward the projector? Does the projector have a 3D separation control? If so, try less separation. My Sony bluray player has a 3D separation control, and also lets me enter the size of the screen so that separation is always controlled according to the size of the screen. Have you tried that? Sorry, don't mean to talk down to you. Sounds like you know what you are doing. Just trying to help.
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post #9 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 06:23 AM
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I was wondering about this with my Sony VPL-HW40ES. I picked up a pair of Sony's Playstation 3D TV glasses as a quick way to test 3D capabilities, and because they are super cheap compared to the official $130 / pair glasses. However, the cross talk is pretty severe. Interestingly though, in the VPL-HW40ES settings there is an option for LCD brightness on the glasses which affects how bright the panels in the glasses get. The default option is as bright as possible, but lowering the brightness actually reduces crosstalk, which makes me think the cheap glasses are a major culprit. This setting does not affect light output from the projector at all, it only affects the LCD glasses. Maybe the official glasses have faster LCD panels? Ultimately I just kind of gave up on 3D though -- it was incredible for gaming but the resolution loss from having to do either 720p framepacked at 60 fps, or significant framerate reduction of 1080p framepacked at 24 fps introduced pretty major drawbacks.
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post #10 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
Hmm, projector is way back in the room and you sit close. Is the crosstalk better or worse as you move further back toward the projector? Does the projector have a 3D separation control? If so, try less separation. My Sony bluray player has a 3D separation control, and also lets me enter the size of the screen so that separation is always controlled according to the size of the screen. Have you tried that? Sorry, don't mean to talk down to you. Sounds like you know what you are doing. Just trying to help.
Crosstalk does not seem to be affected by my viewing distance, unfortunately. I can set the screen size in Oppo's 3D settings, perhaps I can monkey with that a bit (however, it IS correctly set to 110"). There is no "seperation control" available there, but there is a low-med-high setting... but I'm almost positive these settings strictly apply to 2D->3D conversion, which I don't use at all, NOT to native 3D content. AND- remember, the exact same setup worked (nearly) perfectly with my original projector.

I didn't mean to sount like I was putting you in your place, so to speak Rather, I was awkwardly implying that I've already ruled out the sort of general setup factors. What I really want to find is a hidden service menu- something a repair tech, or Epson engineer might use to tweak the settings, beyond what they expose to the user.
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post #11 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 12:37 PM
 
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Some games like the latest Lara Croft have 1080p60 side-by-side 3D modes and looks awesome. Yes, it's half (horizontal) res per eye, but at 60hz per eye you get lots of extra detail that way since temporal sampling rate is higher. Extra framerate is more important than extra res, as you say. Plus 3D SBS (or O/U) can use 1/2 pixel jittered sample offsets for decreased aliasing.

Stereo 3D support in engines is coming back in a major way, if only coincidentally, due to VR. And VR GPU optimisations like single-pass stereo or multi-view rendering directly benefit 3D TVs and projectors too. Plus improvements in forward rendering and MSAA for VR also benefit stereo 3D which has the same issues as screen-space techniques prevalent in deferred rendering engines as VR.

It's 2017, the only reason people should be prevented from having very good 3D quality is due to their own choice.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. When OLED TVs support 120hz again I bet you will see people getting their LCD shutter glasses out of their boxes. All you need for 3D is 120hz native, and ideally a fast pixel response which OLED has in spades so it should deliver full-res, active 3D experience with low crosstalk for those who want it. And there is nothing TV manufacturers can do about it, since it's up to the video processor or PC to decide whether to transmit IR or RF 3D independently.

I do think that stereo aficionados will likely be better served by VR though
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post #12 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 12:49 PM
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I was wondering about this with my Sony VPL-HW40ES. I picked up a pair of LINK as a quick way to test 3D capabilities, and because they are super cheap compared to the official $130 / pair glasses. However, the cross talk is pretty severe. Interestingly though, in the VPL-HW40ES settings there is an option for LCD brightness on the glasses which affects how bright the panels in the glasses get. The default option is as bright as possible, but lowering the brightness actually reduces crosstalk, which makes me think the cheap glasses are a major culprit. This setting does not affect light output from the projector at all, it only affects the LCD glasses. Maybe the official glasses have faster LCD panels? Ultimately I just kind of gave up on 3D though -- it was incredible for gaming but the resolution loss from having to do either 720p framepacked at 60 fps, or significant framerate reduction of 1080p framepacked at 24 fps introduced pretty major drawbacks.
That's an interesting experiment. I actually have some of those PlayStation glasses (@$20/each!), in case I have a few people over- they work perfectly with the Epson as well. They have a slight yellow cast, but don't perform any better or worse than the factory supplied Epson glasses! However, unlike your Sony, the Epson has no LCD brightness setting for the glasses themselves. Amount of crosstalk is identical, and this was true before the projector swap as well (meaning, good before, and bad after, regardless of whether I was using the Epson glasses or the cheap Sonys).
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post #13 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 01:09 PM
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It's 2017, the only reason people should be prevented from having very good 3D quality is due to their own choice.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. When OLED TVs support 120hz again I bet you will see people getting their LCD shutter glasses out of their boxes. All you need for 3D is 120hz native, and ideally a fast pixel response which OLED has in spades so it should deliver full-res, active 3D experience with low crosstalk for those who want it. And there is nothing TV manufacturers can do about it, since it's up to the video processor or PC to decide whether to transmit IR or RF 3D independently.
Fascinating. I always wondered if that would be possible- I figure you'd have to do some initial setup to synchronize the shutters, but otherwise it's simply a stream of alternating L-R images. Unless, perhaps the frame rate occasionally stutters or is slightly variable as presented by the screen itself--which is no problem if the screen is also modulating the shutters in the glasses. A huge problem if there's another device entirely controlling the shutters. *Thinking out loud*

Still, provides hope for a 3D-less TV or gawd-forbid, 3D-less projector future.
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post #14 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Buckmasta View Post
Fascinating. I always wondered if that would be possible- I figure you'd have to do some initial setup to synchronize the shutters, but otherwise it's simply a stream of alternating L-R images. Unless, perhaps the frame rate occasionally stutters or is slightly variable as presented by the screen itself--which is no problem if the screen is also modulating the shutters in the glasses. A huge problem if there's another device entirely controlling the shutters. *Thinking out loud*

Still, provides hope for a 3D-less TV or gawd-forbid, 3D-less projector future.
The "turn your 120Hz 2D display into a 3D display with a simple pair of shutter glasses" strategy is no longer usable since no manufacturer give consumers enough control over the inner working of the hardware to do it.
For this to work, consumers need a way to guarantee a constant input lag in the display, and we need tunable shutter glasses with computer drivers that allow user control which GPU manufacturers apparently don't want us to have (wink* Nvidia 3D Vision wink*). In others words : it used to work with old analog CRT TVs and Monitors. It can't work with modern digital TVs and probably won't work again (you need the manufacturer's involvement to make shutter glasses sync perfectly with the display, even on computer monitors : that's why Nvidia makes 3D Vision certification mandatory, they don't want people to buy hardware and complain it does not work).

As far as building a 3D display or projector from 2D displays. The easiest and most reliable way is the passive dual-display way.
With TVs, you do it with a 50/50 mirror and 2 displays (one standing in front and one laying flat on the floor or suspended above) and large polarisers (LCD TVs are naturally polarized)
With projectors, you do it by overlapping 2 pictures (ideally with lens-shift) and a set of filters : polarizing or narrow-band colour (aka the thing Dolby 3D uses).
That's the technique I've been using since 2011 and I've been enjoying Full Resolution, Full framerate 1080p60 PC gaming on a 2,40m screen ever since. (and the PITA of making it all work)
Sadly this is also the most expensive way of doing stereo 3D. So I don't expect millions of people to suddenly start creating their own DIY 3D dual-projectors setups, only the most hardcore 3D enthusiasts do it.

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Crosstalk does not seem to be affected by my viewing distance, unfortunately. I can set the screen size in Oppo's 3D settings, perhaps I can monkey with that a bit (however, it IS correctly set to 110"). There is no "seperation control" available there, but there is a low-med-high setting... but I'm almost positive these settings strictly apply to 2D->3D conversion, which I don't use at all, NOT to native 3D content. AND- remember, the exact same setup worked (nearly) perfectly with my original projector.

I didn't mean to sount like I was putting you in your place, so to speak Rather, I was awkwardly implying that I've already ruled out the sort of general setup factors.What I really want to find is a hidden service menu- something a repair tech, or Epson engineer might use to tweak the settings, beyond what they expose to the user.
None of the advice the Epson tech support gave you influence crosstalk in any way.

2D to 3D conversion does not introduce crosstalk : it introduces defects. (What is in the picture is signal, not crosstalk)
The 3D depth (yes it's the setting for 2D to 3D conversion) does not change the amount of crosstalk, but it changes the probability of the crosstalk to be annoying (by increasing separation, you increase the probability of high contrast objects in one eye overlapping low contrast backgrounds in the other eye)
Same thing with the recommendation of using other movies or the idea that some movies have crosstalk and others don't. (the movie is the signal, not crosstalk). All movies produce the exact same amount of crosstalk, the only question is whether you are able to see it.

The lens shift, zoom, screen size, throw distance have no effect on crosstalk, but it affects the IR transmitter's effectiveness. All the Epson guy is doing here is cover any potential IR sync transmission issues. If your glasses have good sync, they can't do any better.

The biggest factor for crosstalk by far is the LCD projector itself. More precisely, the LCD response time. (This is why all the gamers' 3D monitors uses the fastest TN LCD panels possible)
Positive crosstalk is caused by the LCD being too slow.
Negative crosstalk is caused by an LCD overdrive being too aggressive which overshoots the assigned colour value of the pixel.

Some displays have a tunable overdrive LCD. (gamers' desktop monitors). I do not know if there is a hidden technical menu in this projector, but if there were one, that would be an ideal candidate for where that LCD overdrive setting would be.

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I owned a DLP, yeeeeeuck, that's why I spent $4000 on this LCD projector.
Unfortunately, DLP is currently the only projection technology capable of single-projector crosstalk-free 3D.

Technically, laser driven projectors could work well (the scanning type, not the laser backlit+conventional imager type).... If implemented properly. (using significantly more than 1 scan per image)

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)


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post #15 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 04:55 PM
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DLP isn't crosstalk free either. I've experience crosstalk on the BenQ 1070 when sitting at 10 ft. When I moved back 3 feet it went away, so distance does matter though it's more to do with the viewing angle and distance of the glasses to the screen which when too close cause cross talk. But usually, I don't see any cross talk, just in very high contrast scenes with a lot of disparity.

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post #16 of 28 Old 03-18-2017, 06:04 PM
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The biggest factor for crosstalk by far is the LCD projector itself. More precisely, the LCD response time. (This is why all the gamers' 3D monitors uses the fastest TN LCD panels possible)
Positive crosstalk is caused by the LCD being too slow.
Negative crosstalk is caused by an LCD overdrive being too aggressive which overshoots the assigned colour value of the pixel.

Some displays have a tunable overdrive LCD. (gamers' desktop monitors). I do not know if there is a hidden technical menu in this projector, but if there were one, that would be an ideal candidate for where that LCD overdrive setting would be.
LCD response time... this is precisely what I figured would be the culprit. I did find some hidden menu once, but there was nothing like that in there. I wonder why there was such a marked difference between the two identical projectors...

I also wonder (regarding the previous commenter with the Sony projector), if the 3D brightness setting *for the glasses* is something of a open vs. closed ratio adjustment. In other words, a shorter "open" duration would cause the image to LESS BRIGHT, but also reduce the likelihood of the previous sub-frame being visible during the transition to the next sub-frame (for the opposite eye). Therefore, in my half-assed theory, 3D brightness is a trade-off between brightness and crosstalk. Am I on to something here?
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post #17 of 28 Old 03-19-2017, 04:24 AM
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LCD response time... this is precisely what I figured would be the culprit. I did find some hidden menu once, but there was nothing like that in there. I wonder why there was such a marked difference between the two identical projectors...
I do not know about this specific model but I remember the story of a computer monitor manufacturer using different suppliers for their LCD panels for different markets : it was called the Samsung 226BW.
Samsung meant to use it's own high quality (faster) panels for the western market, and cheaper (slower) third party AU-Optronics panels for the asian market.
Both monitors had the same case and were sold under the same name. Some clever resellers noticed the price difference, and started importing monitors meant for the asian market into the western market.
PC gamers noticed, and it became a mess to try and make sure you bought the monitors with the correct panels.

I don't believe Epson would subcontract their 3LCD engine for such a high end projector, but they might had had an issue on the production line and change the manufacturing process. With the result of you getting slower panels (resulting in more crosstalk).

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I also wonder (regarding the previous commenter with the Sony projector), if the 3D brightness setting *for the glasses* is something of a open vs. closed ratio adjustment. In other words, a shorter "open" duration would cause the image to LESS BRIGHT, but also reduce the likelihood of the previous sub-frame being visible during the transition to the next sub-frame (for the opposite eye). Therefore, in my half-assed theory, 3D brightness is a trade-off between brightness and crosstalk. Am I on to something here?
Indeed, by reducing the "open" interval, you can make a trade-off to hide some of the transition time for brightness.

On 3D monitors, Nvidia 3D Vision v2 uses this technique to reduce crosstalk, but they do it the other way around : they darken the monitor's back-light through every transition.
And to compensate for the lower brightness, they boost the brightness up through the "open" time. They call their technique "light-boost".
Unfortunately this technique cannot be used by lamp projectors since it requires fast adjustable light source. You'd need a LED or LASER light source for that.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
It's 2017, the only reason people should be prevented from having very good 3D quality is due to their own choice.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. When OLED TVs support 120hz again I bet you will see people getting their LCD shutter glasses out of their boxes. All you need for 3D is 120hz native, and ideally a fast pixel response which OLED has in spades so it should deliver full-res, active 3D experience with low crosstalk for those who want it. And there is nothing TV manufacturers can do about it, since it's up to the video processor or PC to decide whether to transmit IR or RF 3D independently.

I do think that stereo aficionados will likely be better served by VR though
Since you mention OLED TV'S with 3D, well that's the only reason I bought my 65C6. This TV uses passive glasses and I did own a active 3D LCD.
The OLED has the better 3D. So LG has dropped 3D and if the forecasters are right, 2018 should be HDMI 2.1 and 120FPS, with no 3D.
Lots of people are saying, who misses 3D? The only reason I bought my 65C6 is that LG did away with 3D and everyone was saying it will never come back.
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I'm sure passive 3D is better than active shutter glasses (certainly cheaper), not to mention smart because 3D Blurays are 1/2 res so the doing even / odd interlaced polarization on a 4K TV is smart. But using polarizing filters on OLEDs probably cuts down the brightness in half, does it not? That's not a good thing for either HDR nor life OLED expectancy, since they'll have to be run 2X as bright to see the same thing (in 2D).

3D is inevitable to return. TVs are going to become holographic eventually which is inherently 3D. But first they need to work on high framerate content which would make a huge difference to clarity. Put it this way, after HDR, what's next? HFR. Then 3D + HDR + HFR. Or maybe people who are into 3D content just wear their apple AR glasses and TVs don't bother competing in the 3D space and become victims of an Electronics Darwin Award.

I'm OK with active 3D adapters add-ons for 4K @ 120hz TVs which don't officially support 3D. We don't need them to officially support it. And then you get true 4K + HDR + 60hz per eye 3D via active LCD glasses. (for those who want them). Or 120hz for 2D. Which is also super awesome. Win win.
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post #20 of 28 Old 03-20-2017, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I'm sure passive 3D is better than active shutter glasses (certainly cheaper), not to mention smart because 3D Blurays are 1/2 res so the doing even / odd interlaced polarization on a 4K TV is smart. But using polarizing filters on OLEDs probably cuts down the brightness in half, does it not? That's not a good thing for either HDR nor life OLED expectancy, since they'll have to be run 2X as bright to see the same thing (in 2D).

3D is inevitable to return. TVs are going to become holographic eventually which is inherently 3D. But first they need to work on high framerate content which would make a huge difference to clarity. Put it this way, after HDR, what's next? HFR. Then 3D + HDR + HFR. Or maybe people who are into 3D content just wear their apple AR glasses and TVs don't bother competing in the 3D space and become victims of an Electronics Darwin Award.

I'm OK with active 3D adapters add-ons for 4K @ 120hz TVs which don't officially support 3D. We don't need them to officially support it. And then you get true 4K + HDR + 60hz per eye 3D via active LCD glasses. (for those who want them). Or 120hz for 2D. Which is also super awesome. Win win.
Regular LCD displays already have the brightness cut by polarizers... There are filters capable of leverageing the light, but the filters require some thickness. I do not know if these are actually used in TVs.

HDR is quite a big piece to swallow. It brings a lot of room for improvement which current display barely use. It will take years for manufacturers fully master the whole extent of HDR.
I am expecting to see multiple generations of HDR displays with progressively wider and wider gammuts.
We already have HFR capable displays (60Hz), We could perfectly have 48Hz modes for cinema HFR but we miss the content.
We're not going to have a whole new standard for a feature only one movie ever used.

The 120Hz input thing is not for TVs, it's for computers.
The big feature rift between living room displays (TVs and home theater projectors) and computer displays (monitors and gaming projectors) is highly likely to remain for a few years. No Tv and no Movie is produced at 120Hz and there is zero interest for the feature. (they don't even use 60Hz)
The only high refresh rate currently available in the living room is game consoles, but with the push for higher resolutions and the underpowered game consoles currently being sold as "4K" capable, it is more likely that developers will continue the trend of 30fps games, with only a handful of small arcade title ever hitting 60fps.

Only PC gaming has the horsepower to push 120+Hz content, and if any TV/projector manufacturer considered the PC market important enough, we'd have 1080p120 TVs and projectors by now, actually we would have had them 4 years ago.

Holographic displays aren't on the roadmap of any manufacturer. Mainly because there is no way to produce and to play content back cheaply enough.
Also as a side note : holography is not the future of TV : the medium too different.
It's like photography and sculpture : you can take a picture of a statue, you can even sculpt a painting. But you don't get the whole picture.
You cannot replace one with the other.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #21 of 28 Old 03-20-2017, 11:02 AM
 
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There's life beyond 24p, and 3D will never take off until we get beyond 24p because that's the true thing holding it back. I worked in VR filmmaking for a year and the very notion of using 24 fps for stereo VR video would be laughable. It's been tried and it's not convincing.

All the low framerate artifacts are put under a magnifying glass, and doing stereo 3D means there are twice as many hitting your brain all the time. Very annoying. Hence 3D being a failure. Because of low framerates.

This is why I always rip my 3D Blurays to my hard drive and re-encode them to SBS format: so I can interpolate them to 60p per eye. It more than makes up for losing 1/2 their horizontal resolution.

PC gaming is a huge segment of the game industry, people who spend good coin on top hardware, including monitors and projectors, you should read a bit more on the breakdown (PC is close behind PS4 at this point).

If PJ companies think there's no reason to go beyond 60p, they will just lose out on millions of enthusiast gamers' money.

Super high framerates' benefits are amplified on a huge screen, so for gamers, that is approaching nirvana. And even for movie watching, with interpolation, 120 / 144hz looks way, way better than 24p -> 60hz. I watched the same content on my 60hz projector as on my 144hz GSync monitor and on the monitor it's way more lifelike and "present". So I disagree that 120hz isn't important in projectors.

If we go by lowest common denominator thinking, we should be OK with DVDs, edge-lit SDR TVs or even an old 80-pound boob tube sitting in grandma's basement with stacks of Ernest Goes to Jail VHS tapes.

I'd be happy if we even got native 60p video content. There is no technical reason, neither in displays, content pipelines, broadcasting, why 60hz can't be done 100%. But if progress requires fighting inertia against low framerates (both in console games and movies), then that will require either the chicken or the egg to change its mind. And to me, I don't want to wait for "society" to catch up.

I just want displays that let me watch my content the way I want to : in high framerate (interpolated), on a big screen, in HDR, and occasionally - in 3D. Is that too much to ask?

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post #22 of 28 Old 03-20-2017, 11:14 AM
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No one else has said it yet so I will

Buy a DLP.

But, in all seriousness, strange that there's such a difference between production models.

HA! I was going to say the EXACT same thing.

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post #23 of 28 Old 03-20-2017, 12:18 PM
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HA! I was going to say the EXACT same thing.
Agree if you want zero to no crosstalk get DLP. Yes the blacks are not good and I am lucky to see no rainbows. Seeing a double image throws me out of a 3D movies faster than image quality of the blacks not being the best. I have JVC RS-1 and Benq W7000 and prefer the Benq for gaming, sports and 3D (RS-1 can not do 3D).
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post #24 of 28 Old 03-20-2017, 01:42 PM
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Agree if you want zero to no crosstalk get DLP. Yes the blacks are not good and I am lucky to see no rainbows. Seeing a double image throws me out of a 3D movies faster than image quality of the blacks not being the best. I have JVC RS-1 and Benq W7000 and prefer the Benq for gaming, sports and 3D (RS-1 can not do 3D).


The one added benefit of 3D is it makes the lackluster DLP blacks darker. Lol!

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post #25 of 28 Old 03-21-2017, 07:00 AM
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Need good settings for my Benq hc1200 IN 3D Ive got in perfect in 2D
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post #26 of 28 Old 03-21-2017, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
If we go by lowest common denominator thinking, we should be OK with DVDs, edge-lit SDR TVs or even an old 80-pound boob tube sitting in grandma's basement with stacks of Ernest Goes to Jail VHS tapes.

I'd be happy if we even got native 60p video content. There is no technical reason, neither in displays, content pipelines, broadcasting, why 60hz can't be done 100%. But if progress requires fighting inertia against low framerates (both in console games and movies), then that will require either the chicken or the egg to change its mind. And to me, I don't want to wait for "society" to catch up.

I just want displays that let me watch my content the way I want to : in high framerate (interpolated), on a big screen, in HDR, and occasionally - in 3D. Is that too much to ask?
You are confusing your bleeding edge technology wishes with the rest of the market.

The market has spoken.
People would have rather bought large flat LCD TVs over fat CRTs (when they were still sold) because image size is more important than image quality, and large CRT of the old days weighs more than a dead horse and won't even fit the living room.
People would rather buy DVDs over BluRay 3D releases (let alone UHD releases) because they cost less and DVD quality is good enough for 90% of the crappy movies we buy anyway.
People would rather buy a conventional TV over a projector because the projector requires them to completely rethink their living room and need to be in the dark.

There are very good reasons why we don't get broad 60fps content.
- Hollywood DPs like their 24fps "movie look" and don't even want to use 48fps, let alone 60.
- Broadcast TV must follow very restrictive standards to satisfy backwards compatibility. Also, they must broadcast through the extremely narrow bandwidth of broadcast TV. And they cannot change the standards since any broadcast standard change costs billions of $. (change all cameras, all editing stations, all live manipulation stations, all archival stations, all transmission lines, upgrades of all transmission towers, change all consumers' set-top boxes and TVs.
- Console game developers work with hardware that it already old when it ships, and remains the same for almost 10 years. Yet, they have an imperative of making the next game always more beautiful than the previous ones. They almost systematically choose higher resolution over framerate.
- Most PC being used are cheap supermarket laptops that are as crippled in the performance department as consoles are.

The high performance gaming PC market is only a small fraction of the whole PC market, and even among this minority, most of the highly competitive games are played with a keyboard and a mouse sitting at a desk. Therefore the display must fit the desk. (TVs and projectors are highly unlikely to be used).
There is a clear rift in the market with the TVs and projectors on one side, and the computer monitors on the other.
You must understand that the people who do high end 3D projection are a niche market among the minority of a specialized PC gaming market.

The only way TV and projectors manufacturers will implement new features is if they believe such a feature will become "the next big thing". The must-have feature that the entire market uses. Not just a niche sector.
Of course I also have my wish list of features : #1 on my wish list is 1080p with variable refresh rate (60-120Hz range), as well as lots of stuff to simplify dual-projector setups which I have zero hope of seeing on consumer devices like 3840x1080 full-sbs decoding with the ability to show only one eye per projector, daisy-chaining for power and video to reduce the number and length of cables required, projector case with a flat top for easy stacking instead of the usual curvy things they often do to make the home theater projectors more appealing in the living room.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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post #27 of 28 Old 04-21-2017, 05:14 PM
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...strange that there's such a difference between production models.
I think you meant production builds of the same model, at least that seems to be what the original post was alluding to. It seems that this is a common issue with Epson projectors. I never noticed any crosstalk on the 6010 that I owned for almost four years, yet the original post talks about crosstalk on a 6010. The 6040 I replaced mine with has horrible crosstalk. There is a dedicated thread in the Projectors area on 5040/6040 crosstalk. The crosstalk on the 6040's also seems to vary across units. Some owners in the dedicated owner's thread claim the 3D is excellent with no crosstalk. Others are reporting terrible crosstalk. I see it no matter what brand of glasses I use, including Epson brand. On my projector, the 3D depth and brightness can be adjusted, but that only either shifts the crosstalk to a different 3D layer or reduces the brightness of it, but the crosstalk seems to always be there. To be honest, I don't know that I really knew what crosstalk looked like before I got this projector. I know just this week another 6040 owner sent his unit in at Epson's request for their engineers to troubleshoot the issue. It would be nice if they can come up with a firmware fix to resolve this, but I'm beginning to think there must be a hardware defect in some (or maybe most) of these units.
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post #28 of 28 Old 08-02-2017, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by RLBURNSIDE View Post
I'm sure passive 3D is better than active shutter glasses (certainly cheaper), not to mention smart because 3D Blurays are 1/2 res so the doing even / odd interlaced polarization on a 4K TV is smart.
MVC Blu-Rays are not 1/2 resolution. Only SBS (or top/down) is 1/2 resolution and only in one dimension (so it's probably closer to 3/4, not 1/2)
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