3d and hdmi 1.3 vs 1.4 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 34 Old 03-10-2010, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello, couple of months ago I bought an Onkyo receiver TX-SR707 which has HDMI 1.3 inputs . . . does this mean that if I if I purchase a 3D TV and 3D Blue Ray player I will not be able to pass the video through the recevier? IE, do I have to go out and look for a new receiver that has 1.4 HDMI to be able to watch 3D material?
Thanks
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post #2 of 34 Old 03-10-2010, 05:12 PM
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You will not be able to play 3D Blu-Ray disks in Full 3D HD unless your receive supports HDMI 1.4 input, output and pastrhough mode. You will be able to pass through lesser 3D modes such as Side by Side.
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post #3 of 34 Old 03-10-2010, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncstatesman89 View Post

Hello, couple of months ago I bought an Onkyo receiver TX-SR707 which has HDMI 1.3 inputs . . . does this mean that if I if I purchase a 3D TV and 3D Blue Ray player I will not be able to pass the video through the recevier? IE, do I have to go out and look for a new receiver that has 1.4 HDMI to be able to watch 3D material?
Thanks

For just using a 3D Blu-ray player as the source you could consider a Blu-ray 3D player with two HDMI outputs (e.g., Panasonic) that has one HDMI 1.3 output to send the audio to the AVR and a HDMI 1.4 output to connect to the 3D HDTV.

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Originally Posted by walford View Post

You will not be able to play 3D Blu-Ray disks in Full 3D HD unless your receive supports HDMI 1.4 input, output and pastrhough mode. You will be able to pass through lesser 3D modes such as Side by Side.

3D sources are only required to support one of the 3D modes and most BD players will likely only support the full resolution (1080p and 720p) "Frame Packing" format and not any of the reduced resolution 3D formats (which will be used for Directv and cable companies to introduce 3D channels).

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post #4 of 34 Old 03-10-2010, 05:47 PM
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You will have to get one of the new Panasonic 3D blu-ray players. They have 2 hdmi ports on back to split audio and video so you could send audio to your hdmi 1.3 receiver.
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post #5 of 34 Old 03-10-2010, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncstatesman89 View Post

Hello, couple of months ago I bought an Onkyo receiver TX-SR707 which has HDMI 1.3 inputs . . . does this mean that if I if I purchase a 3D TV and 3D Blue Ray player I will not be able to pass the video through the recevier? IE, do I have to go out and look for a new receiver that has 1.4 HDMI to be able to watch 3D material?
Thanks

There are some potential work-arounds that MAY work. However, the Panasonic 3D BD player with 2 HDMI outputs is currently the only SURE thing.

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post #6 of 34 Old 03-10-2010, 10:27 PM
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I'm in the exact same boat with a newer Denon receiver. I'm anxious to see how the PS3 will address 3d with a firmware upgrade. If it would happen soon to support 3D Blu-Ray, than it may be good enough with the 'lesser' format via 1.3 until more 3D content is around to justify the Panasonic device.

I can't find any teases on msrp for the Panasonic either, all I can find is the 300 version (not the 350)
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post #7 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncstatesman89 View Post

...do I have to go out and look for a new receiver that has 1.4 HDMI to be able to watch 3D material?

No. In addition to BD players with dual HDMI outputs, you have two options: look for a receiver that supports 3D passthrough, or contact your receiver manufacturer to see if/when they'll have an update for your current receiver.

Don't look for only "HDMI 1.4", as it's clearly possible for a product to get HDMI-1.4 certified with no support for the optional 3D capabilities. Look for the feature, not for the number.
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post #8 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cubsh8r View Post

I'm in the exact same boat with a newer Denon receiver. I'm anxious to see how the PS3 will address 3d with a firmware upgrade. If it would happen soon to support 3D Blu-Ray, than it may be good enough with the 'lesser' format via 1.3 until more 3D content is around to justify the Panasonic device.

I can't find any teases on msrp for the Panasonic either, all I can find is the 300 version (not the 350)

If you have a PS3 (and want to keep it) the one sure approach is to run the PS3 HDMI direct to the 3D TV and use the optical audio out from te PS3 to the Denon. Of course, with this approach you can't use the lossless audio formats.

Another approach that MAY work is to use a powered HDMI splitter (such as this Monoprice unit. As these splitters pass the HDMI EDID data from the TV to the source on the first output connection, the PS3 should see the 3D data (regardless of HDMI version) and provide a 3D signal. Connect the 2nd HDMI out to your AVR.

As I say, this approach MAY (should?) work, but wait till you have a 3D display and the 3D update to the PS3 (plus a 3D BD) before buying the splitter. Monoprice has a 21 return policy (and they are good about it), so if it doesn't work out, you can return the splitter. But it looks like it probably will work.

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post #9 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

You will not be able to play 3D Blu-Ray disks in Full 3D HD unless your receive supports HDMI 1.4 input, output and pastrhough mode. You will be able to pass through lesser 3D modes such as Side by Side.

This is true about the Side-by-Side and other frame compatible 3D formats, such as top/bottom, line interleaved and checkerboard, but you will have to force the same 3D mode on your player and on your TV. Since there is not automatic signalling for the non-HDMI-1.4 3D modes, the TV can not announce its supported modes to the player, and the player can not signal which 3D mode it is sending to the TV.

HDMI 1.4 added this kind of signalling, in particular:
- The TV can announce in the EDID if it supports 3D, and which (HDMI 1.4) formats it supports.
- The player can announce which 3D format it is sending out to the TV.

Since your amplifier was built before HDMI 1.4 was released, it does not know anything about these 3D extension. Therefore, when it replicates your TV's EDID towards the player (it has to do that to add additional audio formats, and remove unsupported video modes), it will remove all 3D capabilities.

Same thing happens when your player is sending out the new 3D info frames in the HDMI signal. The amplifier does not know anything about these, and drops them from the re-transmission to the TV.

It gets even worse when you want to do the "frame packing" 3D modes, which you'll need for full resolution 3D. The amp does not know those, either, and will not work at all when encountering those timings.
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post #10 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Another approach that MAY work is to use a powered HDMI splitter (such as this Monoprice unit. As these splitters pass the HDMI EDID data from the TV to the source on the first output connection, the PS3 should see the 3D data (regardless of HDMI version) and provide a 3D signal. Connect the 2nd HDMI out to your AVR.

As I say, this approach MAY (should?) work, but wait till you have a 3D display and the 3D update to the PS3 (plus a 3D BD) before buying the splitter. Monoprice has a 21 return policy (and they are good about it), so if it doesn't work out, you can return the splitter. But it looks like it probably will work.

This will probaly work with side-by-side and top-bottom 3D formats, which gives you half resolution per eye, but not with frame packing 3D with full resolution per eye. The splitter can not change the video timing of the HDMI signal, and the amp does not understand this timing.

Sony had stated that they will only support frame packing, but not side-by-side, top-bottom or checkerboard with the playstation firmware update.
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post #11 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

This will probaly work with side-by-side and top-bottom 3D formats, which gives you half resolution per eye, but not with frame packing 3D with full resolution per eye. The splitter can not change the video timing of the HDMI signal, and the amp does not understand this timing.

Sony had stated that they will only support frame packing, but not side-by-side, top-bottom or checkerboard with the playstation firmware update.

As I understand it, the splitter is just an amp in regards to video data - it doesn't need to understand frame packing - it passes what it gets.

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post #12 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

As I understand it, the splitter is just an amp in regards to video data - it doesn't need to understand frame packing - it passes what it gets.

Yes, that is correct. But therefore the amp will get the same frame packing video signal as the TV, only that the amp does not understand the signal and can not extract audio from the blanking area.
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post #13 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 11:09 AM
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If all of this is true, then how is it that the new Samsung and Sony 3D players both only have 1.3, yet they both state they will send full 3D signal to the TV for playback?
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post #14 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 11:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

If all of this is true, then how is it that the new Samsung and Sony 3D players both only have 1.3, yet they both state they will send full 3D signal to the TV for playback?

A typo?

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/t...ail&returnurl=

Doesn't say which version on this 3DTV

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/t...etail&tab=spec
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post #15 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 11:37 AM
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No, I mean the blu-ray players, not the TVs. Both of them are spec'd to 1.3, not 1.4. Also, the PS3 is supposed to be fully compatable with a software update and it's 1.3 as well.

From what I've read elsewhere, the HDMI and 3D specs are different. Looks like you don't need to have HDMI 1.4 to have full 3D, but HDMI 1.4 does include 3D information as part of its spec.
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post #16 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 11:46 AM
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I consider the Samsung spec sheet is a type and was copied from one the none 3D blu-ray spec sheets. Hopefully if they don't publish the C6900 user's manual soon someone who has puchased a C6900 will let us know what it says about HDMI revison levels and output the 3D ouput formats it can output.
The Samsung C7000 user's manual clarly points out that it receives the packed BR 3D buffers over HDMI1.4
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post #17 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholc2 View Post

If all of this is true, then how is it that the new Samsung and Sony 3D players both only have 1.3, yet they both state they will send full 3D signal to the TV for playback?

Don't get hung up on the whole 1.2 / 1.3 / 1.4 version thingy of HDMI. There are only "features", which were introduced at certain revisions of the specification. A feature of a newer revision might be supported by hardware that was designed for an older revision, especially if it only involves changes in existing data formats.

The main HDMI features introduced, by revision:
1.1:
- ACP and ISRC packets (audio related meta data)
1.2:
- One Bit audio
1.3:
- Deep Color
- Extended Gamut color
- HBR audio
- auto-lipsync correction
- single link speeds above 165 MHz
1.4:
- Audio Return Channel
- Ethernet
- 4K
- 3D signalling and formats: frame packing, field alternative, line alternative, side-by-side(full and half), L+depth, L+depth+graphics
1.4a:
- 3D format top-and-bottom

You might be able to do ACP/ISRC on 1.0 hardware. You won't be able to do DeepColor or HBR on 1.2 hardware, but auto-lipsync might be possible. You won't be able to do ARC or ethernet on 1.3 hardware, but 3D and 4K might be possible.

None of the features are mandatory, though. You will find a lot of HDMI 1.3 and 1.4 devices without one-bit audio support, and not all HDMI 1.3 devices do Deep Color.
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post #18 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 12:08 PM
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Yeah, that was kinda my point. Everyone is saying unless you have 1.4, you can't do 3D, but I don't think that's the case. I think 1.4 definitely includes 3D properties in the spec, but do you need it to display full 3D, no. That's up to the folks that came up with the blu-ray 3D spec to decide and from what I've read, they have made it backward compatible.
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post #19 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

Yes, that is correct. But therefore the amp will get the same frame packing video signal as the TV, only that the amp does not understand the signal and can not extract audio from the blanking area.

MIGHT be (and maybe not). The point is that it might work, and someone really won't know till they try it. Another point is that it might work with one particular set-up and not with another. It all will depend on the particular 3D display, the particular 3D source, and the particular AVR. Trying the splitter (when you can return it) is a lot cheaper than purchasing a Panasonic 3D Blu-ray (the only "sure thing" - and even that isn't so sure yet).

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post #20 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 12:28 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

MIGHT be (and maybe not). The point is that it might work, and someone really won't know till they try it. Another point is that it might work with one particular set-up and not with another. It all will depend on the particular 3D display, the particular 3D source, and the particular AVR. Trying the splitter (when you can return it) is a lot cheaper than purchasing a Panasonic 3D Blu-ray (the only "sure thing" - and even that isn't so sure yet).

What "isn't so sure" about the Panasonic 3D BD players?
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post #21 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What "isn't so sure" about the Panasonic 3D BD players?

Until folks use various combinations (like a Panny 3D player with a Vizio 3D set and a Yamaha AVR) we won't KNOW. Sure, the Panny player will work fine with a Panny 3D display with a Panny SA-BX500 AVR - but it is all the other combinations that we can't yet be sure of.

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post #22 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 12:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Until folks use various combinations (like a Panny 3D player with a Vizio 3D set and a Yamaha AVR) we won't KNOW. Sure, the Panny player will work fine with a Panny 3D display with a Panny SA-BX500 AVR - but it is all the other combinations that we can't yet be sure of.

Well they specifically said that one HDMI port is 1.4 (3D) while the other is 1.3 (HD Audio only). You saw my Email
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post #23 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Well they specifically said that one HDMI port is 1.4 (3D) while the other is 1.3 (HD Audio only). You saw my Email

Yes, I saw the e-mail (which said that the 2nd output can be set to only output the audio), but that doesn't mean that brand x AVR will accept an audio only data stream, or that brand z display, won't tell the BD player to only put out 2 channel PCS. In these combinations, there are lots of potential loop-holes. All I am saying is that we won't KNOW until we try!!!

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post #24 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 01:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Yes, I saw the e-mail (which said that the 2nd output can be set to only output the audio), but that doesn't mean that brand x AVR will accept an audio only data stream, or that brand z display, won't tell the BD player to only put out 2 channel PCS. In these combinations, there are lots of potential loop-holes. All I am saying is that we won't KNOW until we try!!!

Are there any problems today attaching X brand BD player (HDMI) to Y brand 1.3 AVR to get HD Audio?
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post #25 of 34 Old 03-11-2010, 03:07 PM
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Here are some interesting comments from Andy Parsons, Chairperson of the U.S. Promotions Committee for the Blu-ray Disc Association (note this interview is from 1/15/2010):

Quote:
To clear up some of this HDMI confusion and learn a bit more about Blu-ray 3D content authoring, I took the opportunity to speak with Andy Parsons, Chairperson of the U.S. Promotions Committee for the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA). As you may know, the BDA recently announced finalization of the Blu-ray 3D specification, the technical governances to which Blu-ray 3D player manufacturers must adhere. Here's what he had to say:

BPBS: Do consumers need HDMI v1.4 end-to-end in order to take full advantage of Blu-ray 3D?

AP: It's not required to use 1.4 as long as everything in the signal path is capable of handling the 3D payload. This means, for example, that HDMI 1.3a can be used if all components, including cables and HDMI switching devices (such as A/V receivers) are "High Speed HDMI." It's important to check with the manufacturer of any switching device to see if it complies with High Speed data rates. If not, then the 3D player's video output should be connected to the 3D display directly using High Speed HDMI cables, with audio connected to the A/V receiver via analog or other digital outputs.

(For more information on "High Speed HDMI" and the HDMI Licensing organization's HDMI classifications, check out HDMI.org.)

BPBS: In the BDA's press release surrounding Blu-ray 3D, it states that "...the specification supports playback of 2D discs in forthcoming 3D players and can enable 2D playback of Blu-ray 3D discs on the large installed base of Blu-ray Disc players currently in homes around the world." It also states that "...the Multiview Video Coding (MVC) codec...can provide full 1080p resolution backward compatibility with current 2D Blu-ray Disc players."

Does this mean that 2D and 3D versions will co-exist on the same disc? Is separate 2D and 3D discs bundled within one SKU a possibility? Or is it only one video encode that we're talking about, one that can simply be rendered in either 2D or 3D depending on the type of player? Bottom line: is it conceivable that we'll see 3D Blu-ray titles that only provide a 3D experience, where 2D playback is "sold separately?"

AP: The Blu-ray 3D specification provides a way to author 3D discs such that the left eye represents the 2D version of a film, with the right eye containing additional information for the 3D effect on compatible displays. This means that a 2D-only player can detect the left eye portion of the data stream on such discs as if they are traditional 2D programs. On discs that are authored this way, the net result is that a 3D disc can accommodate both 2D and 3D players with the same data stream.

Link to the whole interview: http://www.bigpicturebigsound.com/CE...-3D-HDTV.shtml

"With the advent of high-definition television, home viewers will see actors with extreme clarity and detail. Thus they will demand the stars of "Sex and the City" change their names to "The Golden Girls." -Conan O'Brien, In The Year 2000: Ted Danson Edition-
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post #26 of 34 Old 11-22-2010, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What "isn't so sure" about the Panasonic 3D BD players?

i have panasonic 3d bluray and pn63c8000 tv and pioneer 1.4 reciever. at first i had a high speed hdmi from bluray to reciever and 1.3 hdmi from reciever to tv. there was alot of ghosting and didnt look right. I have now replaced the 1.3 hdmi to the tv with a 17.8 gbps high speed hdmi. i believe it will enhance the 3d. i havnt played 3d yet with the new cable but will soon.
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post #27 of 34 Old 11-22-2010, 10:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by rilenixx View Post
i have panasonic 3d bluray and pn63c8000 tv and pioneer 1.4 reciever. at first i had a high speed hdmi from bluray to reciever and 1.3 hdmi from reciever to tv. there was alot of ghosting and didnt look right. I have now replaced the 1.3 hdmi to the tv with a 17.8 gbps high speed hdmi. i believe it will enhance the 3d. i havnt played 3d yet with the new cable but will soon.
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post #28 of 34 Old 11-25-2010, 06:49 PM
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An anomoly or proof of concept?

Everything I have read says that an 1.3 AVR cannot decode the bitstream for audio on a 3DBD Disc?

HTPC ---->Arcsoft TMT3,5 ----> Monoprice 1.3 HDMI Cable (Orange)----> STRDA5300ES----->Mits 3DA-1 Adapter----->Mits WD73835

DTS-MA_HD, TrueHD Bitstreaming Bliss!!! with 3D in full effect. ****Blue Landing strip LED in full effect***

Note: Arcosoft TMT3 hotfix was added for codecs that is posted on Arcsoft forum.

While I have heard of MANY 1.3 AVRs passing video, to my knowledge this is the first AVR I have heard doing this. No tricks, One HDMI cable

What is sooooo special about sonys flagship AVR from years past.

One thing to note is that this AVR does not touch HDMI sources period, there is no scaling done, nothing, its direct pass, no gui onscreen with HDMI at all unless it blanks out the signal path.

Cool if you own those series avrs, This could mean you are in the clear for 3D Bluray with Bitstreaming!

This blew my mind. I want to do some testing with a regular BD player as well. I have a DMP-BDT300 as well, but we are talking about bitstreaming from HTPC, not the BD at this point. I would like to test the BD as well and see if the AVR treats it with the same respect.

Please note: Cyberlink Powerdvd 10, does not grant me the same Bitstreaming Bliss, Reverts to DTS 5.1 Track.

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post #29 of 34 Old 11-26-2010, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nc88keyz View Post

Everything I have read says that an 1.3 AVR cannot decode the bitstream for audio on a 3DBD Disc? ... While I have heard of MANY 1.3 AVRs passing video, to my knowledge this is the first AVR I have heard doing this.

Part of the reason this might be surprising is that HDMI and the CE industry have done a terrible job educating consumers. For example, it's somewhere between ambiguous and meaningless to refer to "an HDMI 1.3 AVR".

To illustrate, consider some crazy-ass manufacturer who decides the world right now needs a VCR with HDMI out. Nothing fancy, just digitize the half-SD-rez, crap video, deinterlace it, and output it as 4x3 480p. No scaling, not even 16x9. For audio, just 2.0 PCM stereo. No Dolby or DTS anything. No 3D, no Deep Color, no HDMI CEC, Audio Return Channel, or Ethernet Channel. Since the current HDMI Compliance Test Spec is version 1.4a, the VCR, once approved, could legitimately be considered "a 1.4a VCR". Obviously, the manufacturer wouldn't claim support for 3D, CEC, ARC, etc., and the HDMI test center wouldn't test for those features if they're not claimed.

I bet many on and off this forum would be incredulous: "A 1.4a VCR would have to support 3D!" And that's because the industry has done a terrible job communicating what "a 1.4a" anything means.

The STRDA5300ES (and every other HDMI "sink") tells the source what it's capable of, and the source chooses some flavors of audio and video that will work. Whether the AVR can handle 3D video or not, it will tell the source what audio formats it supports, and the source will happily provide one. It should not be the case that 3D video capability in a sink will affect the kind of audio that the source passes to the AVR.

I suspect that the STRDA5300ES only ever outputs exactly the HDMI video that arrives at its inputs, almost like a wire. So even though it passed HDMI certification when the spec was only at version 1.3, it can still route at least some 3D video formats through without a problem.

The issue many have referred to is that you might want a source with two HDMI outputs, so you can connect one (just for audio) to an AVR that is not 3D capable, and another (just for video) to a TV that can render 3D.
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post #30 of 34 Old 03-04-2011, 09:07 AM
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Hello, this all goes away if these new 3D tv's had an HDMI out for the audio, these new 3D blu ray players have them, so why don't the TV's. I have a receiver i just bought last year that is HDMI 1.3(a). In my own situation i have 3 devices i would want to use with 3D, not just a blu ray player, so the HDMI audio out would need to be on the TV not on the player. I've read forum after forum that touches on all this but none that give a definitive answer. Can receivers that are HDMI 1.3a support 3D, or can they be made to? If not, why can't the TV have an HDMI out to pass the sound to the receiver and handle the video by itself. Just trying to keep this thread alive, and for my own sanity.
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