Smsung C6900 3d player manual released today 3/15/2010 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 33 Old 03-15-2010, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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It is available at

downloadcenter.samsung.com/content/UM/201003/20100315110436375/01945A-BD-C6900-XAA-ENG-0311.pdf
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post #2 of 33 Old 03-15-2010, 05:06 PM
 
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http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/t...il&tab=support
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post #3 of 33 Old 03-15-2010, 08:13 PM
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Summary of 3D features and user setting from reading the Samsung manual (and my conclusions at the bottom of this post):

The player has a 3D mode user setting to select one of three possible operating modes:
  • Auto : "You can choose whether to watch 3D Blu-ray disc in 3D or 2D mode before playing
    the 3D Blu-ray. It is automatically played in 2D mode if your TV cannot support 3D contents." {i.e., requires HDMI 1.4 equipped 3D HDTV (and 1.4 equipped AVR if used) in order to output 3D content in 3D mode}
  • 3D : "The 3D Blu-ray Disc is played in 3D mode at all times. If a TV cannot support 3D Blu-ray
    discs, the playing screen can be black. "{i.e., basically Forced 3D output when playing 3D discs regardless of what the TV supports - may work with 3D HDTVs and/or AVRs that only support HDMI 1.3, but the 3D HDTV must support the 3D HDMI signal format provided by the player in order to actually display the 3D video}
  • 2D : "The 3D Blu-ray Disc is played in 2D mode at all times. Choose this to view a picture
    without 3D effect or when a TV cannot support 3D Blu-ray discs." {i.e., operates as a stardard 2D Blu-ray Disc player even if connected to a 3D HDTV}

Note:

"As the video resolution in 3D play mode is fixed according to the resolution of the original 3D video, you can not change the resolution to your preference. " Specification: Supports 1080p and 720p 3D video output modes {i.e., only resolutions supported in 3D mode and only via HDMI}

3D Feature Description:

"This player can play 3D contents through an HDMI cable."

"To implement the 3D effect, connect a 3D device (3D-compliant AV receiver, 3D-compliant TV) to the player using an HDMI cable, and play the 3D content while wearing 3D vision glasses."

Screen Size setting:

"Lets you enter the actual screen size of your TV so that the player can adjust the image according to the screen size and display an optimal 3D image. (The maximum allowed screen size is 116 inches for this player.)"

Conclusion: The manual provides no indication that this player supports other than a single 3D output format for a given 3D disc. Thus it appears that only the "Frame Packing" 1080p/24 and 720p/60 3D formats (i.e., for each the right and left image stream), as defined by the HDMI 1.4a specification and required by the Blu-ray 3D spec., are supported. Any 3D display that does not support the Frame Packing HDMI signal formats will not be compatible with this player. Such incompatible displays include the 720p 3D DLP projectors and 3D computer displays that only support 3D sources that provide a sequential alternating right/left image stream at 120Hz total. Also the Samsung and Mitsubishi "3D ready" DLP rear projection TVs will not be directly compatible with this player without the use of an external 3D adapter box (already announced to be coming from Mits by early summer). More info on the 3D Frame Packing format can be found the 3D FAQ thread HERE.

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post #4 of 33 Old 03-15-2010, 08:58 PM
 
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Ron:

What happened to Frame packed 1080x60i? For BD's like concerts and such where HD cameras are used?

Isn't that part of the 3D BD specs?
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post #5 of 33 Old 03-15-2010, 10:40 PM
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Note that in the BD-C6900's display setup, you need to quote: "....enter the actual screen size of your TV so that the player can adjust the image according to the screen size and display an optimal 3D image."

116 inches is the maximum allowed screen size for this player. I'm planning on purchasing a 3D projector this fall/winter or using two projectors (if possible) with my 159" HP screen.

Apparently, the 3D image from this player won't fill my screen. Do other 3D players have a screen size adjustment/limit in their display setup for 3D???

If so, will any of them display a 159" 3D image???
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post #6 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 12:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

Note that in the BD-C6900's display setup, you need to quote: "....enter the actual screen size of your TV so that the player can adjust the image according to the screen size and display an optimal 3D image."

116 inches is the maximum allowed screen size for this player. I'm planning on purchasing a 3D projector this fall/winter or using two projectors (if possible) with my 159" HP screen.

Apparently, the 3D image from this player won't fill my screen. Do other 3D players have a screen size adjustment/limit in their display setup for 3D???

If so, will any of them display a 159" 3D image???

The only other 3D BD player on the market today is the Panasonic DMP-BDT300 and there is nothing at all on their website about it. Put that number in and you get nada.
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post #7 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Ron:

What happened to Frame packed 1080x60i? For BD's like concerts and such where HD cameras are used?

Isn't that part of the 3D BD specs?

1080i/60 is not part of the Frame Packed format as defined in the HDMI 1.4a specification. Rather the only 1080i mode defined by the HDMI 1.4a spec. is the 1/2 horizontal resolution side-by-side mode and this is intended for use by satellite and cable boxes and is not required by the Blu-ray 3D spec.

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post #8 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 07:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

1080i/60 is not part of the Frame Packed format as defined in the HDMI 1.4a specification. Rather the only 1080i mode defined by the HDMI 1.4a spec. is the 1/2 horizontal resolution side-by-side mode and this is intended for use by satellite and cable boxes and is not required by the Blu-ray 3D spec.

So in what "format" will 3D BD use for 1080i60 x 2 content?
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post #9 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

1080i/60 is not part of the Frame Packed format as defined in the HDMI 1.4a specification. Rather the only 1080i mode defined by the HDMI 1.4a spec. is the 1/2 horizontal resolution side-by-side mode and this is intended for use by satellite and cable boxes and is not required by the Blu-ray 3D spec.

well it seems i will not be buying any samsung 3d players.one member said he had one and it supported checkerboard format.guess that was bogus.
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post #10 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

Note that in the BD-C6900's display setup, you need to quote: "....enter the actual screen size of your TV so that the player can adjust the image according to the screen size and display an optimal 3D image."

116 inches is the maximum allowed screen size for this player. I'm planning on purchasing a 3D projector this fall/winter or using two projectors (if possible) with my 159" HP screen.

Apparently, the 3D image from this player won't fill my screen. Do other 3D players have a screen size adjustment/limit in their display setup for 3D???

If so, will any of them display a 159" 3D image???

I also saw the screen size user setting in the user's manual, but its not really clear why the 116 inch setting wouldn't also work with larger screens. The player itself will have no way of knowing what screen size a projector is actually using since this cannot be communicated via HDMI (and even the front projector itself has no knowledge of the screen size). It would be interesting to play with this setting on the player to see exactly what it actually does change on the displayed 3D image (my closest BB has the Samsung 3D player and TV on display but haven't received the 3D demo disc yet). The only thing that comes to mind would be to adjust the horizontal offset of the right/left images or to somehow limit the horizontal area of the screen used for displaying the foreground vs. background picture elements, since foreground picture elements can have large horizontal offset while distant background picture elements require virtually no offset. With certain 3D source material/display combinations this can cause foreground elements near the right and left edges to appear in only 2D if care is not taken in the 3D source recording and how it is displayed. However, I don't see how these would be dependent on the screen size used for displaying the 3D image since a 1080p image on a 100 in. screen viewed at 10 ft. would appear the same as for the same image displayed on a 50 in. screen viewed at 5 ft.

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post #11 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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AFAIK no FullHD 3D BR disk contains 1080i content, only a standard BR disk can contain 1080i content. Therefore since the new players are backwards compatible they can output 1080i in 2D when playing a standard BR disk.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

AFAIK no FullHD 3D BR disk contains 1080i content, only a standard BR disk can contain 1080i content. Therefore since the new players are backwards compatible they can output 1080i in 2D when playing a standard BR disk.

On the Panasonic 3D BD demo disc - they have 3D footage shot with 3D HD cameras. What format is that?
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post #13 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The only thing that comes to mind would be to adjust the horizontal offset of the right/left images.

That is exactly what it's doing. But usually, it should ask for the screen size and how far you sit from the display, as this is how the Avatar game does it. Let's say you have a 65" inch screen, there is quite a difference sitting 6 feet away and 12 feet away.

If a player does ask for both, and your screen size is higher than the max setting, you would have to play around with the distance setting to get the right effect.

Currently testing 3D with Sammy DLP, shutter glasses, and HTPC
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post #14 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

So in what "format" will 3D BD use for 1080i60 x 2 content?

No - The only formats that will output are full 1080p/24 (x2) or full 720p/60 (x2) and which of these will depend on which resolution is used for the 3D video that is recorded on the specific disc. That is, for virtually all movies the only available output format the player will provide is full 1080p/24 (x2). The HDMI 3D frame packed format places both the right and left 1080 x 1920 pixel images within a single "super sized" frame that has 2205 vertical pixels by 1920 horizontal pixels (more info is HERE). As explained in the 3D Video FAQ thread, this is the format for transmitting 3D video across HDMI between 3D sources and 3D displays and then it's entirely up to the 3D display to process the information coming over the HDMI from the 3D source and then putting it into the display format used by that specific display. Thus the only 3D displays suitable for this new generation of 3D are those that have the required intelligence to accept and process any and all of the 3D mandatory fomats defined by the new HDMI 1.4a specification. However, 3D sources are allowed to be essentially 'dumb' devices that only output in one of the 3D formats defined by the HDMI 1.4a specification and the Blu-ray 3D spec. goes further by defining which one is required to be supported by Blu-ray 3D players.

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post #15 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

1080i/60 is not part of the Frame Packed format as defined in the HDMI 1.4a specification. Rather the only 1080i mode defined by the HDMI 1.4a spec. is the 1/2 horizontal resolution side-by-side mode and this is intended for use by satellite and cable boxes and is not required by the Blu-ray 3D spec.

1080i60 is part of the HDMI 1.4 and 1.4a specs in "Frame Packing for interlaced formats". But it is in the optional annex of HDMI 1.4, not in the mandatory formats.

In HDMI 1.4a, the description of "frame packing for interlaced formats" was moved from the annex into the main section of the spec, but still no interlaced frame packing formats have been made mandatory. They do list 1080i frame packing among the "Primary 3D Video Format Timings", though.

As for the mandatory formats, you are right, HDMI 1.4a includes 1080i60 only as "side-by-side(half)".
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post #16 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 10:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

No - The only formats that will output are full 1080p/24 (x2) or full 720p/60 (x2) and which of these will depend on which resolution is used for the 3D video that is recorded in on the disc. That is for virtually all movies the only available output format will provide full 1080p/24 (x2). The HDMI frame packing format places both the right and left 1080 x 1920 pixel images within a single "super sized" frame that has 2205 vertical pixels by 1920 horizontal pixels (more info is HERE).

Yes - I am aware of what a frame packed frame consists of.

I was thinking about content not shot in the stereo 10080x24P format. Like the up and coming Masters and World Cup sporting events.

I did look up the two popular concerts shot in 3D; U23D and Hanna Montana, Best Of Both Worlds. and both were shot with Fusion 3D camera rigs which are probably stereo 1080x24P.
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post #17 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 10:21 AM
 
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scarabaeus:

You have any idea how many pixels would be used for the active vertical blanking area in a 720P frame packed frame? It's 45 for a 1080P frame packed frame.
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post #18 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

scarabaeus:

You have any idea how many pixels would be used for the active vertical blanking area in a 720P frame packed frame? It's 45 for a 1080P frame packed frame.

The vert. blanking area is 30 pixels for 720p frame packing format, as per Table 8-15 of the HDMI 1.4a spec.

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post #19 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 11:02 AM
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One other thing I found interesting in the manual was this:


"As the video resolution in 3D play mode is fixed according to the resolution of the original 3D video, you cannot change the resolution to your preference."



Unless I'm mistaken, isn't pretty much any mainstream Blu-ray release going to have a native resolution of 1080p? This would mean that this player would not be compatible with any non-1080p device, which means even if there is a 720p 3D projector with hdmi 1.4, this player won't work with it.... Right?
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post #20 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 11:02 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones View Post

The vert. blanking area is 30 pixels for 720p frame packing format, as per Table 8-15 of the HDMI 1.4a spec.

Thanks
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post #21 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

... if there is a 720p 3D projector with hdmi 1.4, this player won't work with it.... Right?

The projector might be able to rescale it.

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post #22 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 01:28 PM
 
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LOL - for the life of me I can't seem to download the manual

I am using this link

http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/t...il&tab=support

It just stops and doesn't continue. I also noticed they changed the date from March 15th to March 16th.
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post #23 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Thanks

So, it's 1280x1470p, that's what you wanted to know, right?
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post #24 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 01:29 PM
 
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Quote:
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So, it's 1280x1470p, that's what you wanted to know, right?

Correct.
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post #25 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony1 View Post

This would mean that this player would not be compatible with any non-1080p device, which means even if there is a 720p 3D projector with hdmi 1.4, this player won't work with it.... Right?

No, your potential HDMI 1.4 720p projector has to be able to accept 1920x2205p24 (1080p24 frame packing), as mandated by the spec.

And the Samsung player can also output 1280x1470p60 (720p60 frame packing) as stated on page 64 of the manual.
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post #26 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 02:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

No, your potential HDMI 1.4 720p projector has to be able to accept 1920x2205p24 (1080p24 frame packing), as mandated by the spec.

And the Samsung player can also output 1280x1470p60 (720p60 frame packing) as stated on page 64 of the manual.

What about this from the manual:

Quote:


"As the video resolution in 3D play mode is fixed according to the resolution of the original 3D video, you cannot change the resolution to your preference."

1080P FP'd for 3D BD movies and 720P FP'd for 3D games
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post #27 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

What about this from the manual:

1080P FP'd for 3D BD movies and 720P FP'd for 3D games

You are right, this player won't scale content, it just reformats it to the 3D signal. By the way, is 720p60 a valid format for 3D Blu-rays, or just 1080p24?
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post #28 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 03:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

You are right, this player won't scale content, it just reformats it to the 3D signal. By the way, is 720p60 a valid format for 3D Blu-rays, or just 1080p24?

AFAIK - no - just 1080P frame packed and I thought 1080i frame packed.

Could it be for PS3 games in 3D?????

Do they have to follow the same specs as BD ROM (movies) does?
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post #29 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarabaeus View Post

You are right, this player won't scale content, it just reformats it to the 3D signal. By the way, is 720p60 a valid format for 3D Blu-rays, or just 1080p24?

I have the same question in fact I was going to ask you since you currently work in the industry and I can not find a public releass containing details of the spec. However, apparently you are involved in the display or TV side and not in the player side
It certainly would make a lot of sense if it did so that HD3D blur-ray disks could be released that contain recordings of true dual lens camera filmed 720p/60 sporting events.
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post #30 of 33 Old 03-16-2010, 07:59 PM
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720p60 is not one of the original Blu-ray mastering standards, therefore I doubt it's part of the 3D standard.
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