3D BD players that output checkerboard format. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 48 Old 08-20-2010, 05:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I have one. I have the Panasonic 350, the panny 300 also does it I hear. The reason I start this thread is that I am a Sammy DLP owner, and I'm concerned that if ever my panny 350 bluray player screws up. Even though I have a warranty, I might have to replace it with a new player and by that time NO bluray players will support checkerboard format. IE: being left abandoned.

Are there any news or tidbits about future BD players including this option? For those of us that are happy with, and would like to stick with our Sammy DLPs for quite a bit longer.

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post #2 of 48 Old 08-20-2010, 06:05 AM
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The Panasonic DMP-BDT100 may also have checkerboard, It will be released in September. Also HDGuru 3D has stated according to industry sources a low cost 3D adapter compatible with the Samsung DLP TVs will probably be soon released. When this occurs any 3D source (Blu-ray player, STB) should work.
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post #3 of 48 Old 08-20-2010, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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if that's true then I'll even beable to play PS3 games in 3D? I'd just need an emitter at that point, right?

Sounds like the future just might be ok for my good 'ol Sammy.

Sony KDL-70R550A (passive 3D tv)
Denon x4000 (amazing sound correcting software)
Klipsch RF-62IIs (amazing horns)
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post #4 of 48 Old 08-20-2010, 07:43 AM
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If you get the DLP link glasses such as the X102 you won't need an emitter.
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post #5 of 48 Old 08-20-2010, 12:19 PM - Thread Starter
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cool. If I DO get an emmiter would I beable to use the samsung glasses (the one for their Plasma's and LEDs)? Because I really like the comfort and style of those glasses.

Man that's pretty exciting, I can't wait to find out more about this adaptor.

Sony KDL-70R550A (passive 3D tv)
Denon x4000 (amazing sound correcting software)
Klipsch RF-62IIs (amazing horns)
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SVS PC12-NSD + Klipsch RW12d (so boom)
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post #6 of 48 Old 08-31-2010, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teremei View Post

cool. If I DO get an emmiter would I beable to use the samsung glasses (the one for their Plasma's and LEDs)? Because I really like the comfort and style of those glasses.

Man that's pretty exciting, I can't wait to find out more about this adaptor.

The adapter that Mitsubishi includes with the 3DC-1000 3D starter kit works with the Samsung 3D glasses.
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post #7 of 48 Old 09-17-2010, 12:36 AM
 
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Recommend the Panasonic 100, 300 or 350.
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post #8 of 48 Old 09-19-2010, 02:55 PM
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I think your concern about being able to use your Samsung display in the future--past the lifetime of your Panasonic 3D BD player(s)--might be misplaced.

My understanding is that the 3D BD standard signal format is side-by-side. To the extent a manuf makes a display that (only) accepts some other 3D signal format, they're also going to likely manufacture an adapter that converts side-by-side to checkerboard (or whatever other 3D signal format their displays are designed to accept). Otherwise, that display manuf is sorta locking themselves out of 3D BD compatibility. Not well-advised since some argue that the format that will be the biggest growth engine for 3D in the home.
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post #9 of 48 Old 09-19-2010, 04:19 PM
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The 3D blu-ray standard is not SbS see:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10417449-1.html
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post #10 of 48 Old 09-19-2010, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teremei View Post

I have one. I have the Panasonic 350, the panny 300 also does it I hear. The reason I start this thread is that I am a Sammy DLP owner, and I'm concerned that if ever my panny 350 bluray player screws up. Even though I have a warranty, I might have to replace it with a new player and by that time NO bluray players will support checkerboard format. IE: being left abandoned.

Are there any news or tidbits about future BD players including this option? For those of us that are happy with, and would like to stick with our Sammy DLPs for quite a bit longer.

Buy another one.
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post #11 of 48 Old 09-19-2010, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

The 3D blu-ray standard is not SbS see:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10417449-1.html

The OC! Thx. But I go to that link and I see the CNET story that basically is an announcement of the spec's codification last December . . . but not details on what signal format was chosen to be the standard. I'm not questioning what you're saying--but I am a little confused on this issue, as my Mitsu display's manual intimates that the standard is frame packing--I'm just saying that story doesn't say whatever the standard is one way or the other. Neither does the first link in the text of the story, which is to a BDA press release posted by Business Wire.

Is it buried in the comments? I want something more official. Even a Denon sales rep told my Mitsu sales rep that side-by-side is the 3D BD standard. I went to the official BDA site and didn't see it there either after an admittedly cursory look at what appears to be less technical information in the FAQ.
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post #12 of 48 Old 09-19-2010, 08:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post


The OC! Thx. But I go to that link and I see the CNET story that basically is an announcement of the spec's codification last December . . . but not details on what signal format was chosen to be the standard. I'm not questioning what you're saying--but I am a little confused on this issue, as my Mitsu display's manual intimates that the standard is frame packing--I'm just saying that story doesn't say whatever the standard is one way or the other. Neither does the first link in the text of the story, which is to a BDA press release posted by Business Wire.

Is it buried in the comments? I want something more official. Even a Denon sales rep told my Mitsu sales rep that side-by-side is the 3D BD standard. I went to the official BDA site and didn't see it there either after an admittedly cursory look at what appears to be less technical information in the FAQ.

3DBD standard is framepacked 1920x2205 signal.

Lee will probably post a picture of this for you next time he's on.
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post #13 of 48 Old 09-19-2010, 09:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

3DBD standard is framepacked 1920x2205 signal.

Lee will probably post a picture of this for you next time he's on.



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post #14 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 12:47 AM
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Thanks for the image. But that image alone neither identifies the signal format standard nor provides much context. It just states and depicts the rez. Could I get a citation/reference/linkage for further reading please?
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post #15 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 01:04 AM
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There is a panasonic 105 also that does checkerboard at the place that we are not suppose to name for 219
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post #16 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 03:10 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

Thanks for the image. But that image alone neither identifies the signal format standard nor provides much context. It just states and depicts the rez. Could I get a citation/reference/linkage for further reading please?

The signal format is called frame sequential and is the only 3D format that gives you Full HD per eye



For additional info you can go here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232830
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post #17 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post


The signal format is called frame sequential and is the only 3D format that gives you Full HD per eye

For additional info you can go here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232830

The format for the Blu-ray 3D signal is called frame-packed.

The display method used by current 3DTVs is frame-sequential.
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post #18 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 05:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter0328 View Post

The format for the Blu-ray 3D signal is called frame-packed.

The display method used by current 3DTVs is frame-sequential.

That is just the way the HDMI chip assembles the frames.

3D Signal Formats:

Frame Sequentional (aka Page Flip)
Line-by-Line (aka Hortizontial Interlace)
Side-by-Side
Top/Bottom (aka Over/Under)
Checkerboard

And others.
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post #19 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 06:28 AM
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A couple of months ago, I picked up a Sony BluRay player at Costco, Model BDP-BX57 which is both Internet & 3D capable. Not doing any real research on format, now I'm wondering if I should return it and find a Panasonic if that's the only brand that gives you the Mitsubishi DLP "checkerboard" compatible format? I thought this thread would contain a broader list of checkerboard-format BR players, but it looks like only Panasonic works?

My TV is a WD-65737 and its 3D capable. I also will have to upgrade my D*TV HR20 receiver to a HR21-HR24 if I want to see 3D on this set from D*TV. I'm probably going to buy the Mits 3D kit when I see them going on sale again (Frys had the complete bundle for $240).

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post #20 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 07:35 AM
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As stated in the link I posted above the actual disk is encoded with the use of a new MVC codec.

When decoded by the player it is output in the HDMI 1.4 3D packed frame disussed above.

For more on the MVC H.264 2d+Delta fromat see:

http://www.netblender.com/main/resou.../mvc-encoding/
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post #21 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 11:12 AM
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I'll keep looking but thanks for the reply, Mr. Stewart. As opposed to scrolling through yet another thread or hearing from a resident expert, I'm really looking for a brief "white paper," perhaps from the BDA. There are too many discrepancies (like the little frame-packed/frame-sequential bauble in posts 16 and 17) over what is often minutiae and too much implementation variance from manuf to manuf on smaller details. I want to grasp the broad strokes on just the spec. I'd sure like to think that the BDA had to have released something more technical than a press release, like an executive summary.

Meanwhile, if indeed my understanding is not correct on the 3D BD signal format standard, I stand corrected and have a related question more specific to the topic of this thread: If indeed frame packing is the standard, why is leading BDA member Panasonic making players that output checkerboard? Is there a setting in the player menu that allows one to switch that output to frame packing for use with a display that accepts that and not checkerboard?

Perhaps my understanding of checkerboard is skewed by reading largely info at the Mitsu site (since I have a Mitsu DLP). But I thought checkerboard was largely a format that comes in to play as something 'universal' that other formats can be converted from in case a display can't accept what a source natively outputs. From the Mitsu 3D FAQ:

The Checkerboard format is really designed as method of displaying 3D on the TV and not expected to be used to send 3D signals to your home. The Mitsubishi 3D TVs display 3D using the checkerboard format so the Mitsubishi 3D Adapter is designed to convert the Frame packing, side-by-side and top-bottom signals mentioned above to the checkerboard format.
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post #22 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

As stated in the link I posted above the actual disk is encoded with the use of a new MVC codec.

When decoded by the player it is output in the HDMI 1.4 3D packed frame disussed above.

Okay. But that CNET story you link to does NOT mention frame packing explicitly.
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post #23 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 11:15 AM
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Walford... Hope you were answering my question. If so, it sounds like if you have a BR 3D capable player, a 3D capable TV (and in my case a Mits DLP that uses checkerboard whatever that is), all I have to do is run a HDMI cable from the Sony to either my Mitsubishi (3 HDMIs IN), or to my Yamaha HTR 5063 3D 7.1 AVR's HDMI IN? And any old HDMI will not work, I will need a HDMI cable certified for 1.4? Now would that be from the DVD to the TV or if I go the other route thru my AVR (need audio right?) do I need a 2nd v.1.4x HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV?

In a nutshell, the current 3D movies available on BR-DVD are already in the format you're citing?

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post #24 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 01:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

I'll keep looking but thanks for the reply, Mr. Stewart. As opposed to scrolling through yet another thread or hearing from a resident expert, I'm really looking for a brief "white paper," perhaps from the BDA. There are too many discrepancies (like the little frame-packed/frame-sequential bauble in posts 16 and 17) over what is often minutiae and too much implementation variance from manuf to manuf on smaller details. I want to grasp the broad strokes on just the spec. I'd sure like to think that the BDA had to have released something more technical than a press release, like an executive summary.

The BDA does not publish specs/white papers for free. So a PR is about all you are going to get.

If you have a question - ask it. Lots of knowledgeable people on this forum.

Quote:


Meanwhile, if indeed my understanding is not correct on the 3D BD signal format standard, I stand corrected and have a related question more specific to the topic of this thread: If indeed frame packing is the standard, why is leading BDA member Panasonic making players that output checkerboard? Is there a setting in the player menu that allows one to switch that output to frame packing for use with a display that accepts that and not checkerboard?

Frame packing is the method that the HDMI TX chip uses to assemble the data which is then sent on to the 3D display where is does it's thing via the HDMI RX chip. Because AVC-MVC is used as the codec, there is approx. 150% - 50% more than a 2D BD. Not 200%. There is some interpolation going on due to redundant frames. That is how MVC works.

Panasonic decided to build the very best 3D BD player like they decided to build the very best 3DTV with their VT series. They recognized some issues that they addressed; That 1.4 3D will not go through a 1.3 AVR so they use dual HDMI outputs (selectable in a menu) that allows one output to be used for 1.3 HD audio (to AVR) and the other as a 1.4 HDMI out for 3D video (300 & 350). They also saw the opportunity to provide a 3D BD player for the millions of 3D ready RPTVs that Mits and Samsung sold/sell which require checkerboard to work. So they added that to their players. It is a menu selectable output. Samsung has totally ignored it's past customers.

Quote:


Perhaps my understanding of checkerboard is skewed by reading largely info at the Mitsu site (since I have a Mitsu DLP). But I thought checkerboard was largely a format that comes in to play as something 'universal' that other formats can be converted from in case a display can't accept what a source natively outputs. From the Mitsu 3D FAQ:

TI developed 3D for their DLP chips. Because the DLP chip in an RPTV is different than what is used in a projector, they invented a method to show 3D on a DLP RPTV. And that method requires checkerboard as the 3D format for a successful execution. DLP projectors don't use checkerboard to display 3D. And they invented a comm system for the glasses that works for both with no emitter required; DLP-LINK.

Quote:


The Checkerboard format is really designed as method of displaying 3D on the TV and not expected to be used to send 3D signals to your home. The Mitsubishi 3D TVs display 3D using the checkerboard format so the Mitsubishi 3D Adapter is designed to convert the Frame packing, side-by-side and top-bottom signals mentioned above to the checkerboard format.

That is correct.

When the Vizio 65" 3DTV (LCD) arrives next year, it will use Xpol technology which means no active shutter glasses. It uses passive polarized glasses - the same kind they give out at a RealD 3D Cinema. But it only works using the Line-by-Line 3D format so it will convert all the other formats to L-b-L just like the 3DA-1 convets them to Checkerboard
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post #25 of 48 Old 09-20-2010, 01:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

Okay. But that CNET story you link to does NOT mention frame packing explicitly.

I gave you this link. It is referenced in the first post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232830

You need to go through the link to get to the detailed specs of both HDMI 1.4 and 1.4a. They are there.
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post #26 of 48 Old 09-21-2010, 08:32 AM
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I think the confusion in this thread has been caused by the fact that the HDMI organiation and the Blu-Ray orgainzation are Independent of each other but they co-operated with each other in the development of the HDMI 1.4a 3D format standards and playing of 3D BR disk on 3D capable TVs.
The HDMI 1.4a 3D specs support the 1080p/24 double packed buffer, in addition to to the Side-by-Side and Top-and Bottom 3D formats(used by cable and Satellite systems)
The 3D Blu-ray spec defines the use of the MVC 2D+delta format using H.264 encodiing compression for disk creation. It also requires the ability to ouput 3D using the HDMI1.4a 1080p/24 double packed buffer. Output in 2D only format is also require and other output formats such as Chekerboard are permitted but not required.
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post #27 of 48 Old 09-22-2010, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

I gave you this link. It is referenced in the first post:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1232830

You need to go through the link to get to the detailed specs of both HDMI 1.4 and 1.4a. They are there.

The post of mine that you quote and proffer this reply to was not directed to you, Mr. Stewart. I even quoted the AVS member whose comments I was responding to and it's not you. So I don't know why you felt the need to revise this post to state the above.

But now that you've gone there: Although I note your predilection for starting many, many 3D-related threads here on AVS, generally speaking I'm more interested in going to factual, original sources instead of wading through the off-topic posts and juvenile contentiousness that so often crop up at all four of the HT online fora I read.

Although it's apparently your personally preferred modus operandi, my "need[ing]" to drill down through a AVS thread may or very well may not be the most time efficient way to get information.
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post #28 of 48 Old 09-22-2010, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walford View Post

. . . other output formats such as Chekerboard are permitted but not required.

This is helpful--thank you. Now the issue is finding out whether any given player outputs "permitted but not required" 3D signal formats. That's the information the OP was/is looking for. And so I am WRT, say, the Denons supposedly skedded to street in December and January.
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post #29 of 48 Old 09-22-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Stewart View Post

Panasonic decided to build the very best 3D BD player like they decided to build the very best 3DTV with their VT series. They recognized some issues that they addressed . . . They also saw the opportunity to provide a 3D BD player for the millions of 3D ready RPTVs that Mits and Samsung sold/sell which require checkerboard to work. So they added that to their players. It is a menu selectable output. Samsung has totally ignored it's past customers.

Thank you.

But as soon as a ostensibly objective consumer starts saying things like 'such and such CE manuf decided to build the best ____' it raises one of my eyebrows. Of course I'm happy that the Pans are probably the most versatile 3D BD players currently available (?). But I think it's arguable whether that's attributable to some corporate commitment to being "the best" or simply a fortuitous result of the marketplace being so fakata right now and Panasonic wanting to be as many things to as many 3D BD player consumers (regardless of their display choice) as possible.
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post #30 of 48 Old 09-22-2010, 02:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

The post of mine that you quote and proffer this reply to was not directed to you, Mr. Stewart. I even quoted the AVS member whose comments I was responding to and it's not you. So I don't know why you felt the need to revise this post to state the above.

But now that you've gone there: Although I note your predilection for starting many, many 3D-related threads here on AVS, generally speaking I'm more interested in going to factual, original sources instead of wading through the off-topic posts and juvenile contentiousness that so often crop up at all four of the HT online fora I read.

Although it's apparently your personally preferred modus operandi, my "need[ing]" to drill down through a AVS thread may or very well may not be the most time efficient way to get information.

OK - I tried to give you the locations for the data that you requested. You want to try to find it on your own - good luck. Won't change that data at all.
Lee Stewart is offline  
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