Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post
Thanks for looking at the file too Don.

I think icerat4 has a good handle on posting raw files, but the request was for an MVC file with full 3D HD inside.



Sorry guys that was wrong. I shortly will have mvc right from my cam to my external hd to dropbox. They are uploading right now . so soon i will have them up
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post #362 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 03:25 PM
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http://file:///C:/Users/Icerat/Downloads/00004.MTS
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post #363 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 05:05 PM
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I came up with the following link that works to paste in the browser.

dl.dropbox.com/u/28877157/00004.MTS

The file does open with VideoRedo 4.20.6.619 and edit in 2D. If this is 3D MVC, I suspect that the extra view is in the edit output when I cut at I-Frames, since it does not re-code the stream in that case.

TS mux rate : 28.464 Mbps
Encoding : H.264
VideoStreamID : x1011
Frame rate : 29.97 fps
Encoding size : 1920 x 1080
AC3 5.1

No 3D playback hardware here yet...

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post #364 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

I came up with the following link that works to paste in the browser.

dl.dropbox.com/u/28877157/00004.MTS

The file does open with VideoRedo 4.20.6.619 and edit in 2D. If this is 3D MVC, I suspect that the extra view is in the edit output when I cut at I-Frames, since it does not re-code the stream in that case.

TS mux rate : 28.464 Mbps
Encoding : H.264
VideoStreamID : x1011
Frame rate : 29.97 fps
Encoding size : 1920 x 1080
AC3 5.1

No 3D playback hardware here yet...

This file opens and plays in 2D in both Windows Media Player and TMT5 on my system. TMT5 plays back JVC MVC files in 3D.

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post #365 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 05:52 PM
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I uploaded some to my syncplicity account, but still haven't checked the link:

https://my.syncplicity.com/invite/wdnr3rot

the files i got from td10 are m2ts, which in vegas show 2 video streams

ps: I haven't double checked the procudures that how this m2ts files arose, but if I recall it right, after I uploaded these clips from the TD10 to my hard drive via PMB, the PMB took quite a while to reorganise these files when I tried to open the destined folder, even if the PMB itself is closed, then these m2ts files came out.

I think there must be important porcedure, like encoding or something, for a raw file from TD10 to become an appropriate 3d format so a conventional software would recognize it, and by now it can only be done by PMB as we know, hope this would help you, ice!


---------------------------------------------
sorry icerat4, because I can't download your link, so I misjudged your file, I am behind the GreatFireWall
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post #366 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

This file opens and plays in 2D in both Windows Media Player and TMT5 on my system. TMT5 plays back JVC MVC files in 3D.

Joseph, is that 00004.MTS file in 3D on TMT5 ?

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post #367 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sharpnicle View Post

I uploaded some to my syncplicity account, but still haven't checked the link:

https://my.syncplicity.com/invite/wdnr3rot

the files i got from td10 are m2ts, which in vegas show 2 video streams

My playback software (TMT5, Win Media Player, PowerDVD) sees the file as 2D only. I have to get Vegas installed.

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post #368 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

Joseph, is that 00004.MTS file in 3D on TMT5 ?

Yes, that's the way it plays back for me. MTS files from the JVC are side by side only. The JVC's mp4 files play back in TMT5 in 3D, though I have yet to get my computer to induce my RS40 projector to emit a 3D sync signal. That's a software issue, though.

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post #369 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 06:25 PM
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Thanks Richard. I'm downloading the file now and will test shortly in Vegas 10d.

PS- I got my tracking number for the TD10 to arrive here Friday AM. I also have some shooter's accessories arriving. But got word my batteries will arrive next week. I'm going to need 2- 70's and 1- 100 to carry with me on my shoots week after next.

Joe: I decided against a glidecam for the TD10 as I'll need a monopod pole mopre because I'll be shooting in huge crowds of people. I ordered a carbon fiber 65" long that will have a belt pocket Should put it above all but the NBA players and I don't think any of them will be in the crowd.
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post #370 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Thanks Richard. I'm downloading the file now and will test shortly in Vegas 10d.

PS- I got my tracking number for the TD10 to arrive here Friday AM. I also have some shooter's accessories arriving. But got word my batteries will arrive next week. I'm going to need 2- 70's and 1- 100 to carry with me on my shoots week after next.

Joe: I decided against a glidecam for the TD10 as I'll need a monopod pole mopre because I'll be shooting in huge crowds of people. I ordered a carbon fiber 65" long that will have a belt pocket Should put it above all but the NBA players and I don't think any of them will be in the crowd.




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post #371 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 06:52 PM
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Here is what the file properties says :

Streams
Video 1: 00:00:33.033, 29.970 fps interlaced, 1,920x1,080x12, AVC, AVC
Video 2: 00:00:33.033, 29.970 fps interlaced, 1,920x1,080x12, MVC, MVC
Audio: 00:00:33.056, 48,000 Hz, 5.1 Surround, Dolby AC-3, Dolby AC-3


If I shut off Vegas 3D properties it will load into the timeline as a pair of 2D clips on 2 tracks. If I turn on 3D stereo using anaglyph ( I'm not using a 3D monitor on my computer), it loads as a single 3D clip with excellent PQ and full 1080 x 1920

One thing I have been seeing as a difference between JVC video and Sony. The images are typically warmer with the JVC and have higher chroma saturation. I haven't taken the time to scope them as I wanted to wait for a good Sony raw to do that and now it looks like I have one courtesy from icerat4.

It has been my experience that cameras that over saturate the chroma and not be properly white balanced can lead to trouble later in post. But if one really needs that extra warm look, there is an old shooter's trick to achieving that:
Put the camera in manual white balance, then white balance through a light sky blue gel. This achieves a more natural warming than adding a warming red filter to the lens.
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post #372 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Thanks Richard. I'm downloading the file now and will test shortly in Vegas 10d.

PS- I got my tracking number for the TD10 to arrive here Friday AM. I also have some shooter's accessories arriving. But got word my batteries will arrive next week. I'm going to need 2- 70's and 1- 100 to carry with me on my shoots week after next.

Joe: I decided against a glidecam for the TD10 as I'll need a monopod pole mopre because I'll be shooting in huge crowds of people. I ordered a carbon fiber 65" long that will have a belt pocket Should put it above all but the NBA players and I don't think any of them will be in the crowd.

Cool. I'd like to see some footage, if you can share a bit.

My Blackbird stabilizer should be here tomorrow. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes me to balance it. I'll provide links to some footage over in the JVC thread, once I get the hang of it.

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post #373 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 07:37 PM
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For weeks now I have been following the threads here on the Sony HDR-TD10 with great interest. I ordered the 3D camcorder today from B&H (my Sony dealer had been unable to get one) and I had it sent overnight air. It has already been shipped and should arrive before 10:30 AM tomorrow (Thursday). I just upgraded my Vegas Pro 10 to 10d so I should be able to edit the 3D footage from the Sony TD10.

I am quite excited about shooting 3D with the TD10. In late January I purchased a Sony VPL-VW90ES 3D capable projector and it displays a beautiful 3D image from Blu-ray 3D with no ghosting on my Stewart 100 in. wide Studiomatte 1.3 screen.

The Sony is going to get me back to using my PC for video editing. For the last few years I switched from Vegas to Final Cut Pro on the Mac and more recently to Adobe's Premiere Pro CS5.5 on the Mac, but neither of these are at present able to ingest the Sony TD10's MVC file format, and I am not interested in side-by-side because I want all the resolution I can get for viewing these on the big screen with my 90ES.

So...just a word of thanks to all who have been contribution to both this and the JVC threads. I have learned a lot and look forward to soon be posting a few of my own thoughts.

Tom
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post #374 of 1579 Old 05-11-2011, 07:48 PM
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For weeks now I have been following the threads here on the Sony HDR-TD10 with great interest. I ordered the 3D camcorder today from B&H (my Sony dealer had been unable to get one) and I had it sent overnight air. It has already been shipped and should arrive before 10:30 AM tomorrow (Thursday). I just upgraded my Vegas Pro 10 to 10d so I should be able to edit the 3D footage from the Sony TD10.

I am quite excited about shooting 3D with the TD10. In late January I purchased a Sony VPL-VW90ES 3D capable projector and it displays a beautiful 3D image from Blu-ray 3D with no ghosting on my Stewart 100 in. wide Studiomatte 1.3 screen.

The Sony is going to get me back to using my PC for video editing. For the last few years I switched from Vegas to Final Cut Pro on the Mac and more recently to Adobe's Premiere Pro CS5.5 on the Mac, but neither of these are at present able to ingest the Sony TD10's MVC file format, and I am not interested in side-by-side because I want all the resolution I can get for viewing these on the big screen with my 90ES.

So...just a word of thanks to all who have been contribution to both this and the JVC threads. I have learned a lot and look forward to soon be posting a few of my own thoughts.

Tom

Hi, Tom. I'll look forward to your impressions. We all have much to learn in the coming months, and there are so many unexpected surprised (many of them unpleasant) when you try to use software to get work done. It's great to have other people who are going through the same things and helping find answers.

Joe Clark

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post #375 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 05:00 AM
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Hey thanks for the footage SHARPNICLE.

This is cool... works well on the Vegas time line too. As Don notes it clearly does open on the time line as 2 streams along with the 5.1 surround so it totals out to 8 tracks all together and it is all completely editable. It seems to be basically the same structure you would see on a Blu Ray disk with the only difference being the second stream being noted as a SSIF file

After seeing what the TD10 looks like on the timeline it's quite clear that the JVC footage IS different and not accepted by Vegas. Of course JVC has had this issue in the past with unique and oddball format outputs. Maybe a future Vegas update will take care of it but I wouldn't hold my breath.... Vegas (and many other editors) STILL do not readily accept JVC TOD files from the original mpeg hi def jvc hard drive cam.
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Hey thanks for the footage SHARPNICLE.

This is cool... works well on the Vegas time line too. As Don notes it clearly does open on the time line as 2 streams along with the 5.1 surround so it totals out to 8 tracks all together and it is all completely editable. It seems to be basically the same structure you would see on a Blu Ray disk.

You are welcome!

Today I checked again the file type issue, found that the original clips are mts extensions, while filenames are organised as 00001,00002...number sequentially

and sync with a harddisk in mass storage mode results in ghost content.

and these mts files are seen by vegas as 2d, like what joe said
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Joe,

You are indeed right about having a lot to learn. My Sony HDR-TD10 arrived this morning and I have spent the entire morning charging the battery pack that came with the camera and a spare battery pack that I also had ordered form B&H.

Since I needed to charge batteries, I have done nothing with the camcorder yet, but I am impressed with how small and light the camcorder is and with the apparent quality of its construction. I have always found Sony camcorders to be well engineered, and the TD10 certainly seems to follow that tradition. Now it is time to sit down with the manual and start reading. I had hoped to go out to a local park this afternoon to take my first 3D footage, but it is raining and quite dark here today so my first footage may have to be indoor material.

Tom
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post #378 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 12:14 PM
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Tom-
Since you have batteries to charge- can you take a moment and measure the exact diameter of the lens mounting ring? I need to order the right step up ring for the matte box. It should be 3" according to my notes from NAB. I'd like to have it in mm a little more precise if you have a calipers. The step ring clamps down to 75mm so that one should work if my measurement was accurate. If you don't have time that's OK, I'll order it tomorrow after my camera arrives.

Joe- I got a monopod which I think will suit me better than the Blackbird. Do you know holding the collapsed monopod attached to the camera between thumb and forefinger will allow you to use it like a glidecam? Anyway, I needed something to raise the camera above heads in a crowd.
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post #379 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 01:42 PM
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Of course JVC has had this issue in the past with unique and oddball format outputs.

But the output from JVC 3D cam is not oddball. The files adhere to the latest AVC spec (which describes MVC in an MP4 container) and had Sony implemented the spec, Vegas would open the files.

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #380 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 01:49 PM
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But the output from JVC 3D cam is not oddball. The files adhere to the latest AVC spec (which describes MVC in an MP4 container) and had Sony implemented the spec, Vegas would open the files.

MP4 is not Blu Ray compliant... and neither is the AAC audio that JVC is using. What Sony is using IS in fact Blu Ray compliant.

Now..... which method makes more sense?

Have a read at how Blu Ray 3D disks are constructed and you'll see that JVC is out in left field once again:

http://www.netblender.com/main/resou.../mvc-encoding/
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post #381 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 02:20 PM
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MP4 is not Blu Ray compliant... and neither is the AAC audio that JVC is using.

That has nothing to do with what I posted and has no bearing on Vegas file format support. Most cameras on the planet produce output that is not Blu-ray compliant, and yet that output is used to produce Blu-rays. This is not about Blu-ray compliancy in the slightest.

Quote:


What Sony is using IS in fact Blu Ray compliant.

Right. Go on then, copy the files from Sony 3D camcorder to your PC and burn the files as-is on a BD-R, then play the disc on your stand-alone player. You'll soon understand the difference between format compliancy and authoring.

Quote:


Have a read at how Blu Ray 3D disks are constructed and you'll see that JVC is out in left field once again

I'm well aware of the entire 3D Blu-ray authoring workflow.

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post #382 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 04:08 PM
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Sony invented Blu Ray. Blu Ray is Sony. Vegas is Sony. TD10 is Sony. MY PS3 is Sony. My PS3 plays all BluRay whether replicated or burned. Can't say that for other BluRay players.

JVC is not Sony. If you must complain about Sony not supporting JVC then complain to JVC, not Sony. I said before, I go with Sony because Sony supports it's line completely. Many have good reasons to go with JVC and I respect those reasons but these people have to respect that they may not be playing with a full deck of cards when they decide to go that route. When you work with Sony you know that you will have a complete support system on your side. To me, that means much more than any minor difference I may find with JVC, Panasonic, Hitachi, Canon, etc.
As far as I'm concerned there is no debate here.
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Right. Go on then, copy the files from Sony 3D camcorder to your PC and burn the files as-is on a BD-R, then play the disc on your stand-alone player. You'll soon understand the difference between format compliancy and authoring.
It can and already has been done. Not the authoring part of course... we still need a DVDa update for that, but creating a 3D Blu Ray disk now (from a TD10 source) is entirely possible.

But let's not stray too far from your original claim in that JVC followed the spec... which they didn't. The AAC audio alone puts them out in left field.

I completely agree with Don on this. This is not a "Sony" issue. It's a JVC issue... just as it was with their Enviro cams using some out-in-left-field TOD format. If you read back in my posts months ago just before the JVC cam came out... this was one of my major concerns:

Given their previous track record for oddball output formats... is this cam actually going to be compatible with anything else out there?

And to be honest, I ask this question with ALL of the stuff I buy... and again I agree with Don in that most of the time I go with Sony because I know the item will AT LEAST be compatible with other Sony components.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis
Sony invented Blu Ray. Blu Ray is Sony. Vegas is Sony. TD10 is Sony. MY PS3 is Sony. My PS3 plays all BluRay whether replicated or burned. Can't say that for other BluRay players.
This is my pet peeve: there is no "Blu Ray" or "BluRay". It's "Blu-ray" and just as easy to get right as it is to get wrong

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JVC is not Sony. If you must complain about Sony not supporting JVC then complain to JVC, not Sony.
No. That is quite simply incorrect. JVC is not the developer of Vegas. It's not the task of individual camera manufacturers to knock on the door of every NLE manufacturer with hat in hand and beg for support for their camera - especially when the file format in question is based on existing spec and not a proprietary solution. It is, however, up to the NLE developer to support the widest possible selection of formats if they wish to cater for the widest possible customer base. If they decide, for whatever reason, not to support format X they are sending a message of "we don't need your custom" and risk losing some business. It is most certainly in the interest of Sony Creative (which is a separate business unit from Sony's video camera unit) to support as many formats as possible.

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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post
This is my pet peeve: there is no "Blu Ray" or "BluRay". It's "Blu-ray" and just as easy to get right as it is to get wrong


No. That is quite simply incorrect. JVC is not the developer of Vegas. It's not the task of individual camera manufacturers to knock on the door of every NLE manufacturer with hat in hand and beg for support for their camera - especially when the file format in question is based on existing spec and not a proprietary solution. It is, however, up to the NLE developer to support the widest possible selection of formats if they wish to cater for the widest possible customer base. If they decide, for whatever reason, not to support format X they are sending a message of "we don't need your custom" and risk losing some business. It is most certainly in the interest of Sony Creative (which is a separate business unit from Sony's video camera unit) to support as many formats as possible.
Well... only if it's worth it for SCS to add support for the cam in question. They have yet to add native support for the TOD file, and don't bother trying to look for support for the semi pro Panasonic cams either.... Sony REFUSES to support Panasonic. That's the chance you take though when purchasing this kind of stuff while it's hot of the presses so to speak. There is no law that says ANY of these nle's MUST support all cams.

Please stop saying JVC followed the spec. They did not.

Need i remind you that Sony Vegas is the ONLY nle to support ANY of these new cams... but then I don't see you hopping mad at FCP.... Adobe... Corel...etc

If JVC puts out an oddball format... then it's JVC's responsibility to supply the software to convert. To the best of my knowledge they have not supplied software to convert their MVC/MP4
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post #386 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbarney

It can and already has been done. Not the authoring part of course... we still need a DVDa update for that, but creating a 3D Blu Ray disk now (from a TD10 source) is entirely possible.
You are confusing compliancy and authoring again. If you burn the files on disc as-is, the resulting disc is not adhering to the Blu-ray standard and will not play. Sure, some players have media player functionality which lets them play many file formats from a BD but that has nothing to with Blu-ray movie spec. My point is that no matter the acquisition format, the data always needs to be manipulated in order to create a playable BD. In that respect all formats are equal and BD compliancy is irrelevant.

Quote:
But let's not stray too far from your original claim in that JVC followed the spec... which they didn't. The AAC audio alone puts them out in left field.
JVC video adheres to the part of AVC spec which defines MVC in an MP4 container. MP4 container spec allows AAC audio. Point being that JVC's is not a proprietary format like, for example, RED's REDCODE.

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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post
If you burn the files on disc as-is, the resulting disc is not adhering to the Blu-ray standard and will not play.
That's true for just about anything... including avchd... which comes pretty close to Blu ray compliancy all on its own

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My point is that no matter the acquisition format, the data always needs to be manipulated in order to create a playable BD. In that respect all formats are equal and BD compliancy is irrelevant.
No.
avchd (just for example) was in fact created specifically so that the data did NOT have to be manipulated.

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JVC video adheres to the part of AVC spec which defines MVC in an MP4 container. MP4 container spec allows AAC audio.
And once again I'm saying you're wrong. The MP4 container allows for just about anything short of a cat or dog... that doesn't mean JVC followed any spec.
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post #388 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 05:49 PM
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Don,

I am sorry but I don't have a pair of calipers so I can't really give you an accurate measurement on the lens diameter. I did check the Sony specifications in the manual but they did not give the lens diameter unfortunately.

Tom
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post #389 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 06:16 PM
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It has been an interesting day since my TD10 arrived about 10 AM. I spent hours charging two batteries, but read the manual while doing so in order to become throughly familiar with the camcorder before using it for the first time. It was raining here today and quite dark so there was no chance of getting outdoors with the TD10. In fact, I even had difficulty getting enough light on objects indoors to run the Auto 3D Lens Adjust. However, I finally succeeded in doing so and then the fun began with some indoor clips recorded in 3D.

Others here have commented on how good the LCD display in 3D is on the TD10, and I would certainly agree. In fact, when i first turned on the camcorder and was looking squarely at the LCD, I was really struck by how natural the 3d image looked and the depth of the 3D. Sony did a beautiful job on this LCD display!

I took several clips indoors with normal indoor lightening (i.e. I did not use any supplementary on camera light), and I then viewed them via the camcorder's playback on our Sony 90ES projector on our large screen. My wife and I both were really pleased with the 3D quality of the images recorded by the 10D. We saw ghosting only once in watching about 10 minutes of footage and this occurred when an object, in this case a newspaper my wife was holding, came closer than 3 feet to the camcorder. The 3D image had excellent depth, good color, and was nice and bright on our projector. The only downside I noticed was that the Sony active shutter glasses required for us to watch 3D on our projector did seem to desaturate the colors a bit. Perhaps when I get into editing my footage on Vegas 10d I will be able to correct this.

We then watched all three clips in 2D. Our reaction was that after the 3D the 2D image was a letdown -- not because it was not excellent -- but because we really missed the immersive experience that the added depth gave to the image. Color quality in 2D mode was outstanding with natural flesh tones and a very sharp image even on our large screen. Frankly, I was truly blown away with this initial experience at 3D on the 10TD.

One of the clips that we took this afternoon was essentially a lock-down shot with the 10D on a tripod about five feet from my Yamaha grand piano. I sat down and played a four minute piece just to see what the sound recorded by the 10D would be like and what the 3D image would look like. When we watched this and listened through the 7.1 surround sound system in our home theater, the sound was truly excellent. Of course it was 5.1 Dolby Digital, but I was amazed at how good the mics built into the Sony 10D were. I normally record my grand piano using an Edirol R-09-HR recorder which is noted for having high quality microphones. The Sony 10D equaled the quality of the audio recording of my Edirol which I would never have expected.

I hope tomorrow will present better weather conditions and I can get outside to shoot some 3D footage in a local park. I also am excited about getting up to speed in Vegas and working with the MVC clips shot by the 10D.

So...it's very early in the game for me, but at this point my wife and I are both very pleased with the performance of the 10D.

Tom
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post #390 of 1579 Old 05-12-2011, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post
... And to be honest, I ask this question with ALL of the stuff I buy... and again I agree with Don in that most of the time I go with Sony because I know the item will AT LEAST be compatible with other Sony components.
Tell that to my friend who never could get his Sony ES series AVR to work with his Sony Pearl projector because of an HDMI incompatibility. After several talks with Sony tech support, and their acknowledgment that there was a problem, he gave up. There are no absolutes in consumer electronics.

Joe Clark

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