Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1579 Old 05-20-2011, 03:01 PM
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Hi.
Regarding audio, could you please make an audio test in a silent room?
I had a Sony HDR-CX700 (IMHO identical to HD10 apart 3D) and there was a background noise: multiupload.com/BIPSG02B6Y (audio set to "normal").
Thanks
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post #542 of 1579 Old 05-20-2011, 06:17 PM
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Ok i ran the hd thru the cam on to the sony hx800 and walla all looks great.So that worked no problems at all .
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post #543 of 1579 Old 05-20-2011, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

Ok i ran the hd thru the cam on to the sony hx800 and walla all looks great.So that worked no problems at all .

Thanks a jillion!
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post #544 of 1579 Old 05-21-2011, 05:20 PM
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if you have the HVR-TD10 recording in MVC 3D, there is 3DTV.AT (who is making the famous stereoscopic player) just releasing an MVC converter.
you just drop the MVC file into the converter and you got left and right AVI file as output.
Works fine with the samples posted in this thread and the Cineform NEO codec.
Then you can use the good old 2d Editing way to process one eye , and then replaces the left eye rushes with the right ones, and generate both views with minimal work.( for those using premiere, do not forget to delete the preview files).
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post #545 of 1579 Old 05-21-2011, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosys70 View Post

if you have the HVR-TD10 recording in MVC 3D, there is 3DTV.AT (who is making the famous stereoscopic player) just releasing an MVC converter.
you just drop the MVC file into the converter and you got left and right AVI file as output.
Works fine with the samples posted in this thread and the Cineform NEO codec.
Then you can use the good old 2d Editing way to process one eye , and then replaces the left eye rushes with the right ones, and generate both views with minimal work.( for those using premiere, do not forget to delete the preview files).

Finally. Yes it actually works. I am able to view the raw files indoor.mts and outdoor.mts using your instructions above. Many thanks. The only thing that stands out is the fact that the camera needs to be kept still or this jittering effect is very noticeable. However I am still very impressed. Now for the Utube videos. I downloaded a Utube video downloader and I have a choice of formats. I tried the HD mp4 option but those will not play using the instructions above. Stereoscopic player doesnt seem to recognize those as MVC files like it does the raw .mts files. Any thoughts here on how to play the Utube videos? I am about to pull the trigger now.
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post #546 of 1579 Old 05-21-2011, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dmadman View Post


Finally. Yes it actually works. I am able to view the raw files indoor.mts and outdoor.mts using your instructions above. Many thanks. The only thing that stands out is the fact that the camera needs to be kept still or this jittering effect is very noticeable. However I am still very impressed. Now for the Utube videos. I downloaded a Utube video downloader and I have a choice of formats. I tried the HD mp4 option but those will not play using the instructions above. Stereoscopic player doesnt seem to recognize those as MVC files like it does the raw .mts files. Any thoughts here on how to play the Utube videos? I am about to pull the trigger now.

Can you hear 5.1 sound, just stereo, or no sound at all with that converter?


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post #547 of 1579 Old 05-22-2011, 06:38 AM
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Don,
I am getting sound. According to the features list it says-

Windows Media 7.1 and 5.1 multichannel audio decoding

I cant tell if I am getting 5.1 on those two samples that I have. Obviously I would like to have more raw samples.

Another concern that I have is that my current 2d camcorder has a 12x optical zoom. I wonder how much difference I will see with just 10x?
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post #548 of 1579 Old 05-22-2011, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3Dmadman View Post

Don,
I am getting sound. According to the features list it says-

Windows Media 7.1 and 5.1 multichannel audio decoding

I cant tell if I am getting 5.1 on those two samples that I have. Obviously I would like to have more raw samples.

Another concern that I have is that my current 2d camcorder has a 12x optical zoom. I wonder how much difference I will see with just 10x?

Thought I already answered but maybe it didn't take. I'm on the iPad.
When I get back home I'll upload some nice video shot these last few days with the TD10.

I went back to an outdoor classical concert I shot in DD2.0 Friday and reshot it tonight in DD5.1. oboe, cello, and violin. Really sounded great in the headphones!


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post #549 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsan View Post
Hi.
Regarding audio, could you please make an audio test in a silent room?
I had a Sony HDR-CX700 (IMHO identical to HD10 apart 3D) and there was a background noise: multiupload.com/BIPSG02B6Y (audio set to "normal").
Thanks
As was mentioned previously to me, the Sony uses auto gain which cannot be switched off. So in a quiet room, yes there will be noise. It is frustrating that this cannot be disabled. I believe this will apply whether you use the internal mic or an external one connected to the mic-in which is somewhat frustrating.

I still wonder exactly what market this camcorder was aimed at. It seems to have a confused identity. Sony must have been confused themselves. Priced far too high to be for many consumers, having some features found on semi-pro models such as manual controls (2D), yet missing fundamental others like the mic gain.

Even the quality of the construction is a mixed bag. It uses a grippy/sticky rubber on one side which is great quality. It uses a silver glossy scratch resistant coating to the left side. The black shiny plastic which is normally a scratch magnet, is a more resistant "speckly" finish. And then you have the base of the camera which is matt black and is pitiful and will scratch if you just put it down on a table and move it slightly as the rubber feet give less than 0.5mm clearance! On top of that my friends TD10 which was sealed with Sony tape already came with a small scratch on that plate. Only 3 of the pathetic feet are rubber and the 4th is just a protuding bit of plastic.
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post #550 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post
As was mentioned previously to me, the Sony uses auto gain which cannot be switched off. So in a quiet room, yes there will be noise. It is frustrating that this cannot be disabled. I believe this will apply whether you use the internal mic or an external one connected to the mic-in which is somewhat frustrating.
Thanks Jon.

I found that the auto-gain causes problems (with my CX700) not only in rare situations (like a silent room) but every time there aren't continuous background sounds.
For example, if people in a room stops talking, you hear the noise.
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post #551 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 01:13 PM
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After having returned the JVC 3D camcorder within 3 days, I was eager to get the Sony version.

So far, I like it. The lenses are way too close together, and I have to experiment on what it will take to get a natural looking 3D that isn't flat. My sense (and knowledge of 3D) tells me that I just need to shoot closer to the subject than I am used to in order to get better (ie: more lifelike) 3D.

I was able to pop the MVC into vegas and get the clip to show up in 3D. However, I on here (in one of the sony threads!) that someone said if you import the MVC file into a 2D project that you will see both left and right clips as separate files. I can't make that happen. Anyone else?

Also, I'm sad that almost all functionality of the camera is lost once in 3D mode. Is this a software or a hardware thing? Do we think more manual options will be available to us in 3D mode after a firmware upgrade at some point, or is that wishful thinking?
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post #552 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jraaronson View Post

After having returned the JVC 3D camcorder within 3 days, I was eager to get the Sony version.

So far, I like it. The lenses are way too close together, and I have to experiment on what it will take to get a natural looking 3D that isn't flat. My sense (and knowledge of 3D) tells me that I just need to shoot closer to the subject than I am used to in order to get better (ie: more lifelike) 3D.

I was able to pop the MVC into vegas and get the clip to show up in 3D. However, I on here (in one of the sony threads!) that someone said if you import the MVC file into a 2D project that you will see both left and right clips as separate files. I can't make that happen. Anyone else?

Also, I'm sad that almost all functionality of the camera is lost once in 3D mode. Is this a software or a hardware thing? Do we think more manual options will be available to us in 3D mode after a firmware upgrade at some point, or is that wishful thinking?

Wishful thinking!

If you needed manual audio control it is available with the pro version nexcam. It has the accessory that mounts on top of the TD 10 and attaches to the hot shoe. It has 2 xlr audio jacks for mic level and line level inputs plus volume controls. Also, has power for condenser mics. I didn't check out other manual controls. Personally, shooting amateur video, I prefer the TD10 in auto low mode. I'm doing more and more run and gun shooting so good auto is preferred to manual these days. If I need professional features, I have the big boys to set up. But that's too much work unless I'm getting paid. . Also, JVC has their pro version as well with similar to Sony features.

In case you were wondering if the pro attachments will fit the TD10, no I checked that out and the pro version is a slight different mounting than the TD10. Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff.


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post #553 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 06:18 PM
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"Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "

Don, I have to disagree with you here. Manual audio is not only as useful to sound as manual exposure to video, but it is offered on almost all consumer camcorders (near the top end) from other manufacturers. JVC, Panasonic and Canon all allow you to defeat autogain and set audio levels, with metering. Sony is the one, lonely exception to this. Manual audio is not even offered in the semi-pro NEX cameras. Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).

Moreover, autogain, unlike autoexposure, is harmful - it crushes dynamics. It makes for noisy video in quiet environments because it pumps up the ambient noise. It ruins music with dynamics (acoustic) by eliminating them unnaturally. It creates annoying pumped up noise between sentences in an interview - pushing up background noise when the speaker pauses.

While autogain is useful in insuring against overload, there is no defense for pooh-poohing the value of manual audio. Sony, again, is the exception here; Again, you do not need to purchase pro equipment to get manual control over audio, you just have to avoid Sony.

Sorry.
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post #554 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

"Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "

Don, I have to disagree with you here. Manual audio is not only as useful to sound as manual exposure to video, but it is offered on almost all consumer camcorders (near the top end) from other manufacturers. JVC, Panasonic and Canon all allow you to defeat autogain and set audio levels, with metering. Sony is the one, lonely exception to this. Manual audio is not even offered in the semi-pro NEX cameras. Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).

Moreover, autogain, unlike autoexposure, is harmful - it crushes dynamics. It makes for noisy video in quiet environments because it pumps up the ambient noise. It ruins music with dynamics (acoustic) by eliminating them unnaturally. It creates annoying pumped up noise between sentences in an interview - pushing up background noise when the speaker pauses.

While autogain is useful in insuring against overload, there is no defense for pooh-poohing the value of manual audio. Sony, again, is the exception here; Again, you do not need to purchase pro equipment to get manual control over audio, you just have to avoid Sony.

Sorry.






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post #555 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

"Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "

Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).

Reading through the thread, it's kinda obvious who that is. Reader beware!
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post #556 of 1579 Old 05-23-2011, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post

"Bottom line, you want pro features, buy the pro stuff. "

Don, I have to disagree with you here. Manual audio is not only as useful to sound as manual exposure to video, but it is offered on almost all consumer camcorders (near the top end) from other manufacturers. JVC, Panasonic and Canon all allow you to defeat autogain and set audio levels, with metering. Sony is the one, lonely exception to this. Manual audio is not even offered in the semi-pro NEX cameras. Only Sony, and its obvious fans, believe that manual audio is a pro feature (is manual focus only a pro feature?).

Moreover, autogain, unlike autoexposure, is harmful - it crushes dynamics. It makes for noisy video in quiet environments because it pumps up the ambient noise. It ruins music with dynamics (acoustic) by eliminating them unnaturally. It creates annoying pumped up noise between sentences in an interview - pushing up background noise when the speaker pauses.

While autogain is useful in insuring against overload, there is no defense for pooh-poohing the value of manual audio. Sony, again, is the exception here; Again, you do not need to purchase pro equipment to get manual control over audio, you just have to avoid Sony.

Sorry.

Nobody is saying that manual audio doesn't have it's place and Sony does offer it in their next level up of prosumer, or semi professional level gear. You may not like the idea that a company offers several levels and has buyers at all of these, but that is what Sony does. If you hate Sony so much and how they package their equipment, don't buy it. Go buy Panasonic or JVC. You should buy what features you find most important. If no one offers what you desire then prioritize your list of needs and wants. When I shoot for broadcast, I don't use this level of equipment. But for personal use I like what it does and find that allowing some things to just be done in auto is quite acceptable to me and my audience.

Yes, the nexcam version of the TD10 does indeed have manual audio. But it is typical professional quality and is simple ch1 and ch 2. There is no DD5.1 in the manual mix mode. It also offers time code. Is that also something you find most amateurs needing? I think you're the one mistaken here. Most consumers want auto and will shoot in auto. It's the wanna bee professionals who desire the pro features yet refuse to acquire that level equipment. Most likely the reason is budget. These cameras do get expensive so that unless one has a way to generate income with them, they are usually not affordable.


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post #557 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 12:08 AM
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what I am actually missing the most is the way manual convergence settings work. I get that you rotate the manual dial. But, there is no screen setting for an overlay mode, so I can't do any precise convergence control. Seeing everything in 3D WHILE altering the convergence is not a good way to alter the convergence. I need to see both images and then adjust the overlay.

Why is that not possible?
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post #558 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 11:07 AM
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where can you get a polarizer filter that fits the hdr-td10???
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post #559 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 11:09 AM
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btw, bh photo had 35 in stock this morning after shipping all the preorders out.
good luck
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post #560 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 11:55 AM
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Thanks Don npfv100 list everywheres at 159 Amazon 48 buck Thanks ordered 1 up

Just curious... Is it working? Could you post the UPC?
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post #561 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 04:28 PM
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The prosumer NXCAM HXR-NX3D1 will provide a separate display modes for left or right images, and an L/R composite mix of left and right images are also
available for easier confirmation of disparity.

_________
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post #562 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jraaronson View Post

what I am actually missing the most is the way manual convergence settings work. I get that you rotate the manual dial. But, there is no screen setting for an overlay mode, so I can't do any precise convergence control. Seeing everything in 3D WHILE altering the convergence is not a good way to alter the convergence. I need to see both images and then adjust the overlay.

Why is that not possible?

I agree! So far most of my work has been in situations where I have had to rely on auto settings as the shooting environment didn't permit me to take the time to do manual setups. But the few times I did get the opportunity, what I did for the 3D manual adjust is frame the shot with foreground, middle, and background objects, then use a middle ground in the scene that has a small hard edge, like a point light white spot, of a thin hard object like a vertical post. Then slowly adjust the knob to be sure the double images converge Next to the little 3D icon you will see a + and - as you roll through the adjustment. When it appears right on the screen is also when the + and - just go off.


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post #563 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 10:37 PM
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where can you get a polarizer filter that fits the hdr-td10???

There is no way to easily fit a polarizer filter to the TD10. What I did was just hold up a large diameter 82mm filter for an experiment. I plan to buy the Cavision mattebox and will need to make some slight modifications for it to fit around the manual adj knob on the TD10. The TD10 does have a convenient 3" dia. flange to facilitate the Cavision clamp-on mounting of the mattebox. This won't be an easy off the shelf accessory.


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post #564 of 1579 Old 05-24-2011, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jraaronson View Post

what I am actually missing the most is the way manual convergence settings work. I get that you rotate the manual dial. But, there is no screen setting for an overlay mode, so I can't do any precise convergence control. Seeing everything in 3D WHILE altering the convergence is not a good way to alter the convergence. I need to see both images and then adjust the overlay.

Why is that not possible?

I would just move my head so I am not looking at the screen "correctly" for 3D and you can then see both images and align manually that way.
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post #565 of 1579 Old 05-25-2011, 02:00 PM
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I would just move my head so I am not looking at the screen "correctly" for 3D and you can then see both images and align manually that way.

yeah, that's been my solution so far. Seems a little silly that that is the only solution for now!

I hope Sony will change things with a firmware upgrade at some point.
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PUTTING IT ALL TOGETHER
Ok, I received my toy yesterday. I got everything working. Here is what I did.
My setup-
Panasonic TC-P58VT25
NVidia GTX 460 connected HDMI
Quad Core, Overclocked with 8 GB Ram, Windows 7

I installed the following software-
Klite codec pack 710 mega
Media Player Classic Home Cinema
NVidia 3dtv play activation utility
NVidia 3d Vision Video Player

Setup Nvidia 3dtv play using the supplied pdf

Now just try and play the NVidia sample videos with the glasses. Use the NVidia 3d Vision Video Player. YOU MUST ZOOM TO FULL SCREEN TO GET 3D TO WORK. Now, if you made it this far install the following software-

Neoplayer
Stereoscopic Player

I recorded some videos on the SDHC card and just copied a few raw .mts streams to my pc using a card reader.
Now open one in stereoscopic player.

Click View, Viewing Method, NVIDIA 3D Vision
Click File, Video Properties, Settings Tab, and check the Interlaced Video(deinterlacing required) checkbox
Click on View, Full Screen Scaled

I use two different resolutions for this, each with its own advantages-
1920x1080@60hz-This is my default resolution.
1920x1080@24hz-This is a resolution setup by 3dtv play. Interesting in that you dont have run in full screen mode to get 3d using stereoscopic player!
Its like having a 3d pip window on my TV. The only downside is that the color has too much blue. I am working on changing the color settings in my display adapter.

You can use Media Player Classic Home Cinema or even Windows Media Player to view in 2D(Thats the Klite Codec).

AunSoft Final Mate is my favorite editing software but as of now it cant handle MVC. I have contacted their tech support and hopefully this will get resolved soon.

The results are dramatic. The 3d is razor sharp with no crosstalk even at 10x optical zoom. I am just amazed at how good this looks. I have Directv 3d channels and they all have crosstalk. The only thing that can compare to this is Avatar Blu Ray at 96hz.

OK, I hope this helps get everything working.
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post #567 of 1579 Old 05-27-2011, 08:06 AM
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Hey everyone, not sure if this goes here or in a Vegas thread so I apologize in advance if this post is in the wrong place.

Anyway, I picked up the HDR-TD10 and the picture on the TD10 is phenomenal and when the camera is hooked up to a 3DTV via HDMI, the 3D is awesome too.

I know the options for working with MVC files are limited to either the very expensive tools and then there's Vegas 10.0d which I picked up.

I'm not very familiar with Vegas having used CS5 tools exclusively so the learning curve is a bit steep.

I was wondering if anyone had any success using Vegas to author a 3D Blu-ray?

I figured out on my own that you have to change a Vegas project's properties stereoscopic 3D mode to "blend" to have it work properly with the files. Is that correct?

I also am having difficulty with the 3D bitrate. The camera shoots at 28 Mbps but the options for burning to Blu-ray using MVC maxes out at 10 Mbps which is unacceptable.

I also figured out that you can up that to 25 Mbps by going into the Render As... option and setting up a custom spec there but when I use the custom spec in a project the best I seem to pull after a successful 3D Blu-ray burn is 10-18 Mbps.

Anyone have any suggestions as to what setting I may be missing that is giving me a crappy bitrate?

Thanks!
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post #568 of 1579 Old 05-27-2011, 08:26 AM
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The HDR TD10 shoots at 28Mbs total so it is 14 per image variable. Not as high as the professional cams and certainly not as high as some film to video conversions for Hollywood 3D productions. Many of your concerns about Vegas have been addressed in the Vegas / editing threads.

As we say in the classes and OJT for young videographers, spend more time developing your shooting skills and less time worrying about the difference in bit rate or or various HD resolutions and you'll better dazzle your audience. The HDR TD10 will give you more than enough quality, technically.

At the end of the day of shooting and I look at my work, I complain more about my own mistakes than bit rate of my equipment.


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Don Landis
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post #569 of 1579 Old 05-27-2011, 08:51 AM
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I get what you're saying but the difference in PQ between what is displayed directly from the camera/files and what was rendered and burned to Blu-ray from Vegas was very noticeable.

I will track down those Vegas threads, thanks.

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post #570 of 1579 Old 05-27-2011, 10:56 AM
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wow..., I think I am one of the first owners IN GERMANY of the TD10 yesterday.... I also have the TD 1 and feel the sony is a little toy against it....

I have a special question - maybe it was answered elsewhere here - gimme a chance please:

I cannot lock the recording time on the display. It shows up for some seconds and then gone.... pushing the display again, it´s coming back for seconds...
How do I know about my remaining job by not knowing recording times?
Any hints there?
I cannot find anything in the manuals....

Big thanks
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