Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 1579 Old 06-04-2011, 06:47 AM
Newbie
 
xxxrimxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Greetings to all,

I have been browsing through this thread and I have found it very informative as far as the HDR-TD10 is concerned.

The massive amount of info about the new Sony camera here has come useful for me, Thank you for that.
I think the HDR-TD10 is no doubt, an awesome and promising piece of equipment.

But I do however have the nagging dilemma of having stereoscopic footage taken from the HDR-TD10 to play in stereoscopic on my laptop.

I have tried the Vegas 10D, 3dtv Stereoscopic player and even PowerDVD 10.
the best I have had it come out as, is anaglyphic footage, which isnt really what i was aiming for. I have tried a lot work arounds to make it work, but I have been unsuccessful to this day.

My question is, Is there a way where in I can view my 3D footage in full stereoscopic format using my Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses, on my 3D laptop?

Im hoping that you guys can shed some light on my problem.
More power to you all!


This is the Equipment im using:

Sony HDR-TD10 3D Camera
Sony Vaio F-Series 3D Laptop
Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses


cheers!
xxxrimxxx is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 1579 Old 06-04-2011, 01:03 PM
Newbie
 
Michael Worley's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Half Moon Bay, CA
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxrimxxx View Post

Greetings to all,

I have been browsing through this thread and I have found it very informative as far as the HDR-TD10 is concerned.

The massive amount of info about the new Sony camera here has come useful for me, Thank you for that.
I think the HDR-TD10 is no doubt, an awesome and promising piece of equipment.

But I do however have the nagging dilemma of having stereoscopic footage taken from the HDR-TD10 to play in stereoscopic on my laptop.

I have tried the Vegas 10D, 3dtv Stereoscopic player and even PowerDVD 10.
the best I have had it come out as, is anaglyphic footage, which isnt really what i was aiming for. I have tried a lot work arounds to make it work, but I have been unsuccessful to this day.

My question is, Is there a way where in I can view my 3D footage in full stereoscopic format using my Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses, on my 3D laptop?

Im hoping that you guys can shed some light on my problem.
More power to you all!


This is the Equipment im using:

Sony HDR-TD10 3D Camera
Sony Vaio F-Series 3D Laptop
Sony TDG-BR100/B 3D glasses


cheers!

New Member,

You will need a Blu-ray Disc burner to burn your 3D content from Vegas Pro 10d that will be recognized by the Sony active shutter glasses.

There are two versions of the Viao F 3D laptops, VPCF21AFX/B with a Blu-ray ROM player & the VPCF2190X with a custom-to-order Blu-ray Disc burner.
_____________
Michael
Michael Worley is offline  
post #633 of 1579 Old 06-04-2011, 05:20 PM
Newbie
 
xxxrimxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Worley View Post

New Member,

You will need a Blu-ray Disc burner to burn your 3D content from Vegas Pro 10d that will be recognized by the Sony active shutter glasses.

There are two versions of the Viao F 3D laptops, VPCF21AFX/B with a Blu-ray ROM player & the VPCF2190X with a custom-to-order Blu-ray Disc burner.
_____________
Michael


Michael, Thank you for the reply. I have the VPCF2190X.
I will give it a go.

cheers!
xxxrimxxx is offline  
post #634 of 1579 Old 06-05-2011, 10:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
I had my first video outing with the TD10, which arrived on Friday.

My first impressions:

The good:

1. The OIS, no more jitters that can wreck 3D. Worked well.

2. The sound is very good (still surprises me). I set the mic level to 'low' as I want maximum dynamic range. Part of the scene today had a folk group playing with cello, trumpet, guitar, bass, mandolin and no mics - one of the few cases I have seen of unamplified music outside.

I have uploaded a raw clip in the raw clips thread of the trumpeter.

3. Auto focus. Seems fine, but given the small sensor and bright light, the dof is so large it doesn't need to focus well. See below.

3. The colors are good.

The bad:

1. Like every consumer camera and camcorder I have owned in recent years, (and as exhibited in most of the sunlit JVC clips) the camera badly overexposes in bright light. This is fixable with exposure compensation, even in 3D, but

2. The camera critically needs either zebra stripes or a histogram. One has to correct the overexposure by sight in the viewfinder alone. I can see the viewfinder pretty well even in bright light, but not really well enough to fix overexposure perfectly without meters.

3. Wide dof; it would be nice to have some ability to narrow the dof; even the trick of maxmum telephoto does not do it as much as on other cameras. Here is where the small sensor hurts (leaving aside low light), although it has the advantage of not requiring critical focusing ability for wide shots.

I will have a video posted later today, with nature scenes, the music group, costumes, kids, and, of course, balloons.
markr041 is offline  
post #635 of 1579 Old 06-05-2011, 02:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Here is the TD10 3D video. This is the grand opening of the Farmer's Market at Edgewood Park, New Haven

Music (no amplification!), balloons, Snoopy, a walking tomato, kids, nature walk, wind power.

Video shows off the telephoto, OIS, sound qualities.

On the sound: There is contrast between the group playing loud (first appearance) and playing soft (later). Also, when in the secluded part of the park, you just hear bird calls and gurgling water (no rushing sounds) - the quiet of the woods is apparent. And you get stereo with directionality (I do not use surround sound).

On the video: this was very bright, noonday harsh light. My main problem was taming overexposure and hot spots, and I was fiddling constantly with exposure. But I think the exposure result is good and the colors good. White balance was fine, although moving from open sun to shade (the musical group) sometimes resulted in bluish tint at the start. I could never get a background out of focus no matter what zoom extension I used.

Highlight: you see children watching the group play from the viewpoint of the band. All in 3D of course.

http://youtu.be/yhWTCoQroZ0?hd=1

Watch in 1080p.
markr041 is offline  
post #636 of 1579 Old 06-05-2011, 03:23 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
To achieve a rack focus zone you need to shoot zoomed in from a distance ( telephoto) and at low f stop. This is going to be difficult with the TD10 in 3D because there is no double f-stop control in 3D mode. You may be able to force it using neutral density filters. Work with exposure in manual too. That you can preset in 3D mode.

Editing tip for you- Shoot longer, full time on your music clips. Then use that as a sound bed for your visual tour. Use some video shots you did that has unimportant sound to break away from the musicians. You can return to your musicians, especially when one picks up as a solo for reference. Can make a nice music video. But the key is to shoot the entire number they performed like it was live for continuous sound bed.
Don Landis is offline  
post #637 of 1579 Old 06-05-2011, 03:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Thanks Don. I had a 2.5 minute stationary clip of the group playing, and thought of using the sound from that track to underpin the nature scenes, but I decided the nature sounds were good. But you are right, for a video where the group playing is the point, cutaways from the group and back with the music continually playing would be effective.


On dof: I know that you get shallower dof with wider lens openings, but as you say, there is no independent control of iris in 3D and so all I had was telephoto. Thus, I am a little confused by this: "Work with exposure in manual too. That you can preset in 3D mode."
There is no control of iris; all you can do in 3D mode is exposure compensate - change the relative exposure, relative to what auto selects. I use "exposure" from the button dial as my preset and was constantly using the dial to avoid overexposure. But you cannot use that to affect iris (dof), since we cannot control either shutter or iris. Maybe I misunderstood.
But in any case, exposure is indeed my manual preset (since (auto) focus in good light is a nonissue but exposure is a big issue).
markr041 is offline  
post #638 of 1579 Old 06-05-2011, 04:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
This is the 2D version of the video, specifically the left lens view, with stereo soundtrack.

http://www.vimeo.com/24694124

Also downloadable.
markr041 is offline  
post #639 of 1579 Old 06-05-2011, 06:19 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Actually, all these are interactive, meaning that if you have an aperture set for auto iris, you can indirectly control that by making the exposure under which will try to compensate by making the auto aperture open to maximum. Normally, with my big camera I would use shutter speed as well but the TD10 also restricts this to non adjust in 3D mode. By setting the shutter speed higher you can control the "DOF" too, indirectly. In bright light, there are only two options with the TD10 you can use to force the iris wide open in auto and that is manual Exposure and adding neutral density filters. Well, I have my TD10 modified with a lens threaded ring for adding filters. Of course these are just suggestions on what you can try. Depending on the shooting scene, it may not be enough to do what you want. It's the main reason why "real" photographers use so many different lenses and cameras as opposed to one has to do everything. You and I already are using a Bloggie and the TD10. There will be times when you will say, for this shot, the Bloggie will do a better job.
Don Landis is offline  
post #640 of 1579 Old 06-05-2011, 07:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
"In bright light, there are only two options with the TD10 you can use to force the iris wide open in auto and that is manual Exposure and adding neutral density filters." italics added by me

Don, you keep saying that the TD10 has "manual exposure" in 3D mode. It does not - the exposure setting is just exposure compensation. There is no exposure priority mode. You can't choose the iris. If you open the iris using exposure compensation you just overexpose, ND or not. Maybe that is what you said, but that is not two options. If you open up using exposure compensation (+) and add an ND filter, you will still be overexposed, but at a larger iris. Exposure compensation adds nothing to the ability to select iris and also have the correct exposure. Two tools, different aims.

With no manual shutter in 3D mode either, there is only one option to open up the iris in 3D on the TD10 - to use neutral density filters. You gave us some useful tips as to how to use ND filters with the TD10.

It would be nice to have more manual options on one camera. But I agree the Bloggie and the TD10 give us more options than most for 3D.
markr041 is offline  
post #641 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 12:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JonStatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 42
I am noticing a tendency for the Sony to over-expose in bright light, as others have mentioned. The JVC does this too. But when this happens, the JVC seems to maintain a good level of contrast and detail in the non-overexposed parts of the scene. The Sony seems to become washed out and the detail starts to disappear.

I find it puzzling that basic automatic exposure can be so wrong on these camcorders. This of course is then worsened by not allowing manual over-rides in 3D, also for no obvious good reason.
JonStatt is online now  
post #642 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 01:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
I also do not understand the overexposure tendency, which is also true among all of Sony P&S cameras. But you can override with the exposure compensation dial in 3D.
markr041 is offline  
post #643 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 02:32 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by markr041 View Post
"In bright light, there are only two options with the TD10 you can use to force the iris wide open in auto and that is manual Exposure and adding neutral density filters." italics added by me

Don, you keep saying that the TD10 has "manual exposure" in 3D mode. It does not - the exposure setting is just exposure compensation. There is no exposure priority mode. You can't choose the iris. If you open the iris using exposure compensation you just overexpose, ND or not. Maybe that is what you said, but that is not two options. If you open up using exposure compensation (+) and add an ND filter, you will still be overexposed, but at a larger iris. Exposure compensation adds nothing to the ability to select iris and also have the correct exposure. Two tools, different aims.

With no manual shutter in 3D mode either, there is only one option to open up the iris in 3D on the TD10 - to use neutral density filters. You gave us some useful tips as to how to use ND filters with the TD10.

It would be nice to have more manual options on one camera. But I agree the Bloggie and the TD10 give us more options than most for 3D.
In 3D mode:
Actually, it does have manual exposure, manual focus, and manual 3D adjust. Those are the only three of the 7 adjustment options offered under the manual knob control. This means you get a a distance in meters at the bottom left of the screen and you can rotate the knob to make manual changes. If you push the button you can over ride it back to auto. Push and hold the button you can activate the Manual exposure too and when this is in manual you will get a -+ bar at the bottom of the screen. Admittedly, this knob and button with menu setting is quite cryptic and you should spend some time learning how it all works. I instruction manual is quite inadequate.

All except 3D adjust is available under 2D setting.


Here's how I did the DOF control:
Camera in full telephoto and in 3D mode, set the screen to 2D to allow for easier view of the settings and it's affect on the image. The recording will remain in 3D.
By setting the exposure to darken the image it is suspected that the iris ( in auto) will automatically open up to it's widest f-stop ( smallest DOF ) before the exposure setting will darken the overall picture in a effort to keep the image perfectly exposed. It is in this position where you will get your optimum ( minimum range) DOF for producing the rack focus you are looking for. Once you have the exposure set, you can then switch the dial to manual focus and dial the focus between two distant objects ( racking the focus ).

I tested this process and it does work but it is not easy as the controls for manual focus on the TD10 are very sensitive compared to a broadcast lens which is smooth and linear by being completely mechanical.

I only mentioned neutral density filters as another way to force the iris open in bright light. Not that you must use both.

I only mentioned shutter speed as another way I use my broadcast cameras to lower exposure with high shutter speed so that in bright light I can adjust the iris full open and maintain proper image exposure.

In any camera, full telephoto, and fully open iris is the way to achieve the tightest range of focus which is what I thought you were looking for.

If you overcompensate the exposure ( very easy to do on the TD10) manual setting you will either overexpose or underexpose the image. You need to adjust the exposure to the edge of minimum to achieve the minimum DOF and not underexpose.

My point is that while this can be done it is not as easy as doing it with large lenses designed for full manual control. But this is how many professional camera procedures suffer in the consumer point and shoot camera designs. As I've said before, Sony makes rigs designed to work in these requirements. They just aren't as low cost as the point and shoot camcorders.
Don Landis is offline  
post #644 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 02:46 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Jon and Mark- It seems pretty obvious both of you need to spend more time on this with the TD10 in hand. The way auto exposure is set is overall average picture brightness. The selection of manual exposure can properly calibrate the camcorder for a range of light in your shooting, then when you change that range, you'll need to switch it to auto again or readjust the manual control for new scene brightness levels. The TD10 has the capability to achieve good image quality and not blow out but the real problem is the controls are all electronic, suffer lag, difficult to adjust and extremely awkward when shooting on the run. If you are setting up a studio shot and have plenty of time to set lights and get that perfect image, the controls are there if you know what they do. But frankly, just as I never do, doing all this in the field in a public setting just isn't going to happen. Trust the auto and get the shot before it goes away!
Don Landis is offline  
post #645 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 02:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Don, I know how to get to all of the settings, and i know what i want to get narrow dof. I just do not understand what changing exposure is really doing, not in general but on this camera. First, you are completely right and I was wrong (I just tested what is going on under different light): the "Exposure" setting really sets the exposure. I have never encountered a camera that allowed you only to set exposure (no shutter control and this is not aperture priority either). This means that if the light changes, your exposure will be wrong (with exposure compensation, it is still auto but shifted (called AE shift by Sony)). No AE shift in auto mode.

Now, that I know exposure really changes the exposure, I really don't understand what actually is being changed - either the iris or the shutter could be changing when we move plus or minus. We just see darkening or lightening. If we are not controlling the iris, we do not have control over depth of field (it could be only changing the shutter). Or should we assume that shutter is not being changed? Also, there is one and only one correct exposure setting, so we cannot keep the correct exposure and also alter the dof by changing the exposure. I just don't understand this.

I know perfectly well how to control dof when I have control of both iris and shutter - to narrow dof open iris, increase shutter speed. But we cannot do that in 3D mode.

Now, I have noticed the following: If I move the manual exposure all the way to the end of plus, say, of course I get massive overexposure. Then I go back to auto and get the correct exposure. Then I go back to manual and the cursor is still all the way at the plus end, but the exposure is now correct, not overexposed even though the cursor is all the way to the + side.

Maybe this is what you are thinking is controlling the iris, but I do not get it.
markr041 is offline  
post #646 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 04:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JonStatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Trust the auto and get the shot before it goes away!

I would like to but it isn't working out that way. In brighter situations, I am ending up with poor contrast, over bright, and loss of detail. Yet I know the Sony is perfectly capable...but not in auto! Bring out the JVC TD1, and although it will blow out highlights, the contrast is maintained, the colour is maintained and so is the detail. Perhaps the JVC is capable of a greater dynamic range.
JonStatt is online now  
post #647 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 04:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Yes, my experience is the same: you need to close down exposure manually in very bright light. When you do the colors are magnificent.
markr041 is offline  
post #648 of 1579 Old 06-06-2011, 11:56 PM
Newbie
 
iWATCH3D's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Has anybody experienced the USB transfer freezing at preparing stage ? Tried on two PC's both don't show nothing in the relevant drive. Camcorder is only half full. Used to work normally once before, tried to transfer recently and had no luck.
Any help would be much appreciated, as I don't want to go through the whole replacement process, not to mention possibility of loosing data.
iWATCH3D is offline  
post #649 of 1579 Old 06-07-2011, 01:06 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Mark- In 3D mode- I believe the iris remains in auto and will track the exposure in manual as you adjust it with the range of f-stops. Say your lighting is such that with iris it is f8 and the exposure is set for good +- adjustment. But for minimum DOF you want the f-stop to be 1.4 or minimum. It appears to me that as you increase manual exposure the f-stop will begin to open maintaining picture quality. When you reach minimum f-stop the iris can no longer continue to open automatically as it has reached it's limit ( where you want to be), but now if you continue to adjust the exposure to the - side more the picture will begin to darken. STOP! and back off to the + side with exposure just a bit so that your exposure and f-stop is perfect, or as good as it's going to get. In the case of the TD10, don't worry about shutter speed in 3D because it is locked to 1/60 second.
In Full auto, the exposure will allow the camcorder to achieve maximum DOF by setting the exposure to allow the iris to be smallest. (The opposite of what you are trying to achieve.) It is assumed that point and shoot tactics are to get everything in focus. So full auto is designed to work this way.

AE shift. ( set in 2D only ) The way I use this is to initially calibrate the camera for all modes! There is no such thing as auto and manual AE shift! It is On or off and when on: It is just a shift of calibration of where the f-stop occurs at a given exposure for all modes. Consequently, once to do your AE shift in 2D mode it works that way for 3D as well. If you feel your camcorder is over exposing all the time in full auto, then adjust the AE shift once and forget it. You'll notice the scale for AE shift is -1 to +1. This is the incremental f-stop change (mechanical) you would notice, but is done by a center point setting of exposure (electronic) to achieve that calibration change. What I don't get is why Sony added that adjustment on the knob since it is not something you should be changing on every shoot. I see AE shift as a camera calibration, like flange back adjustment. On all my cameras, consumer and broadcast, I set the AE shift once and don't mess with it. In my case I set it with a waveform monitor for peak whites at 95 IRE.

JVC has greater dynamic range??? Don't know but there is a modern color system now called XV color that permits greater number of colors but not sure how the brightness range can change. Lowering Black level to 0 from 7.5 IRE can work for increasing the dynamic range if the monitor can deal with it. Time to consult Joe Kane.

Jon- Noticed your comment above where you observed the Sony tendency to over expose. Come to think of it, I have too and consequently find I adjust AE shift to lower exposure adjusting to -.5 EV on the TD10 and similar on my other camcorders. Don't own any JVC since the 80's and that was an analog camera anyway.
Don Landis is offline  
post #650 of 1579 Old 06-07-2011, 06:13 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Don,

"It appears to me that as you increase manual exposure the f-stop will begin to open maintaining picture quality."

Thanks for continuing this discussion as we learn about the TD10. The absence of a thorough manual leaves us on our own!

I do not think you are correct about how exposure works in 3D mode. In fact, I thought that is how it works. But, from auto into manual, using exposure lightens or darkens from where you left auto. Period. If auto gives the correct exposure ("picture quality"), going + or - makes exposure wrong. Thus I do not see how you can use exposure to choose dof. And if the manual exposure setting is the only way to correct overexposure in 3D (always leaning towards - from where auto is set), then for sure you cannot have any independent control of dof. There is no AE in 3D, so exposure is the only way to correct overexposure.

Most consumer camcorders have an internal ND filter. This is used to avoid small apertures and diffraction distortions. Thus, altering the virtual iris does not affect dof very much anyway becasue the iris is not actually moving.

I hope you are correct about the shutter being fixed at 1/60th in 3D mode, as that is appropriate for 60i video. This is contrary, however, to the behavior of all Sony consumer cameras in video mode (including the NEX5) and Sony camcorders in auto mode, where the shutter goes to very high-speed values in bright light and you cannot, of course, stop that. If the shutter is fixed, then changing exposure surely affects the light coming to the lens and thus you cannot have correct exposure and your choice of dof by altering the iris, shutter fixed.

If the shutter is fixed, then we are effectively in shutter priority mode, and in that mode you have no ability to select aperture for dof without losing the correct exposure. Exposure priority mode is the way to achieve choice of dof, and that is not what we have in 3D.

I think the dof discussion for 3D is academic anyway. The main way of shrinking dof is to get close and zoom in (high telephoto). But to maintain good 3D, as you know the minimum distance at maximum telephoto for the 3D window is 25 feet! At 25 feet even at maximum telephoto, given the small sensor, dof will still be relatively wide even if you could somehow open up the iris and still have the correct exposure.
markr041 is offline  
post #651 of 1579 Old 06-07-2011, 07:48 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:


But, from auto into manual, using exposure lightens or darkens from where you left auto. Period. If auto gives the correct exposure ("picture quality"), going + or - makes exposure wrong.

First part I agree with But going + or minus does not make it wrong, it just makes it closer to what YOU consider right! ( recall I like my peak white to be shifted down to 95 IRE ) exposure and iris always work in tandem when one or the other is in auto. In this case exposure in manual then auto will attempt to track the manual setting until it reaches the maximum or minimum opening. If both could be set to manual, ( 2D ) then there would be no tracking of the iris.

I still say you are not seeing the big picture on how these controls work. They work just like they should and the results are predictable. As I said, the only strange thing I see is the location of A.E. being on the knob. In my opinion it could have been left to the buried menus. But that doesn't affect what it does or how it works. AE is just a calibration tool, not a way to adjust manually for shooting.
On my broadcast cameras, you know I have two of these settings. One is located on the camera and the second is located on the lens. But, you would always leave one in default and only calibrate with the other. If you have 2 or more lenses then you set the camera for zero and calibrate each lens. If you use just one lens then you would calibrate the camera and leave the lens alone. It is usually more difficult to calibrate the AE on a lens than on the camera. Back Flange calibration is always done on the lens as it sets the back lens element the proper distance from the first optical element in the camera. Fixed lenses do not require this calibration. If you ever went through this calibration process on a broadcast camera you could see the f-stop actually track the AE on the servo. All this is hidden from view on consumer camcorders.

As for the manual not being very good, I agree but I wouldn't expect the manual on a camera to explain basic photography. Sony is not changing the definitions of what these controls do, but they also don't explain why some are disabled in 3D. I understand why you set AE in 2D only and then it is "locked" in 3D. That is simple physics! But I can only guess why you don't get manual shutter speeds in 3D and you do in 2D. My guess is cost. The circuitry to track the shutter speeds on two cameras had to be sacrificed, considering consumers probably would rarely use that.

The NEX cams allow for the extra shutter speed, 24P. That's it for 3D. I believe there are two versions of the pro cam just as in the consumer that permit the 50i and 25P in 3D but both are available in 2D. ( Going from memory on that one)

Very important for you to understand: Your assumption that AE shift doesn't exist in 3D is wrong. Sorry, but the fact is it is "locked" to what ever you set it at in 2D. If you feel you are not getting the correct exposure the way the camera was factory calibrated. over ride that with AE in 2D and then, leave it on. switch to 3D and the new calibration will hold in locked position. If you connected a WFM to the TD10 composite output and put the camera on a gray scale test chart you would see that the new AE calibration holds.

I believe the minimum distance in maximum telephoto for focus is closer than 25ft. But I can't say I ever measured it. I would have said 10 ft. This assumes smallest aperture, brightest lighting.

I don't own that many consumer camcorders but I can tell you that all I have said holds true for both my HDR SR12 and the TD10. Just for the TD10 some things are unnecessary or disabled. The AE works exactly the same way the exposure works the same way and iris the same way. Neither camcorder offers ND filters. The last small camcorder I have with internal ND filter (2 of them) is the PD100 but this is considered a professional series, similar to what the NEXcam series is sold under. The AE exposure auto iris etc all work the same in this much older vintage camcorder. I'd say the way all these controls work is consistent over the last decade!

DOF is a viable creative tool, not just for academics. But it is far more difficult to operate in these consumer camcorders than the pro rigs. The last small camera I used that could be easily used for racking a focus was the HVR Z1U. In fact there was a "focus puller" that could be attached just for that purpose. You could set the camera up then measure your distances between points of focus. start shooting and pull a lever arm as you racked the focus ring through the shot. It wasn't a cheap accessory.
Don Landis is offline  
post #652 of 1579 Old 06-07-2011, 08:59 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Don,

I am learning all the time about this camera.

"Very important for you to understand: Your assumption that AE shift doesn't exist in 3D is wrong. Sorry, but the fact is it is "locked" to what ever you set it at in 2D. If you feel you are not getting the correct exposure the way the camera was factory calibrated. over ride that with AE in 2D and then, leave it on. switch to 3D and the new calibration will hold in locked position."

Don't say sorry; this is very good news! Setting AE to - seems necesary given the tendency to overexposure. Then I can use manual exposure for other purposes than dealing with overexposure. However, I do not find overexposure problems in shade as much as in bright light, so I may have to adjust AE a lot.

Can you lock WB in 2D mode and carry that over in 3D too? I can test that I guess. Tested, and no.



On internal ND - you are not understanding. You have vast experience with pro cameras. I have vast experience with consumer cameras. In most consumer cameras, which is what the TD10 is I think and what I was referring to, there is an internal ND filter. It is NOT independently selectable like on pro cams. It is basically invisible to the photographer. But it is there and used instead of iris movement. I am betting that one is being used in the TD10 too. It is, for example, used in the Panasonic TM900, arguably the best prosumer camcorder; it is used in all Sony P&S cameras. Not a big deal, but relevant to the dof issue.

The manual is deficient. An expert photographer and a novice needs to know whether in 3D the shutter is locked at 1/60th or not in iauto mode. That information is not provided. If it were true, then manual exposure setting is like shutter priority mode. If shutter is not fixed, then we need to know what changing exposure is doing with iris and shutter. Maybe you assume in some cases what is going on based on your experience with other pro cams, and I am coming from consumer cams and assuming that the camera is like those.

Anyway, please keep helping; I am not trying to debate or to show who is wrong or right, just trying to understand this odd (is it pro-like or consumer-like?) very interesting camera.

Btw, the Bloggie does not seem to overexpose as much as the TD10 (which is good given we could not do anything about it).

Two small points for clarity: 1. By minimum distance I was not talking about focus minimum but the minimum for effective 3D. That, according to the manual, is 25 feet for maximum telephoto. I have found the 3D guidelines accurate. Of course, one can focus at a smaller distance. I am only interested in 3D for this camera; it's minimum focus distance in 2D is nor relevant to me. 2. By "academic" I did not mean for academics, I meant it was irrelevant. That is, given 1 (minmimum 3D distance of 25 feet in maximum telephoto mode), using the trick of zooming to get shallow dof was not relevant because one had to also move way back from the subject for 3D, thus incerasing dof.
markr041 is offline  
post #653 of 1579 Old 06-07-2011, 10:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
I played one of Don's raw m2ts 3D TD10 clips (from Disneyland - Bazaar and Sunshine Tree Terrace?) using DvMP Pro 5, where the camera moved around and the light therefore was variable. This software plays the video file and reports in real time the f-stop, shutter and WB setting.

I am sorry to report that in this outdoor clip, as the light changed, the f-stop remained at f4.0 and the shutter ranged from 1/90th of a second to 1/250th (!) of a second.

I don't know whether the clip was shot in auto or manual exposure mode, but this is exactly the same behavior exhibited by all of the P&S Sony consumer cameras I have used in video mode: mostly shutter variation instead of iris variation is used to control exposure in auto mode.

Given that the shutter is not fixed, it is thus unclear what manual exposure control in 3D mode is actually changing - shutter or iris?

The TD10 is very much a consumer cam. I still like it a lot though!
markr041 is offline  
post #654 of 1579 Old 06-08-2011, 12:03 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Mark-- That is interesting. I'm pretty sure everything I shot that day was in full auto. If what you said is true than Sony engineer who is the director of the design group lied to me. He said in 3D, shutter speed is fixed to 60th of a second. Maybe it was a language barrier. His English was better than my Japanese. LOL! The US rep at the demo at CES didn't know much at all.

Anyway- we are getting into academics but need to find the truth out about this.

I tried the software you suggested but it won't load the files. Says the codec I have for AVCHD / h264 is incompatible. You must be using something different.


Quote:


Given that the shutter is not fixed, it is thus unclear what manual exposure control in 3D mode is actually changing - shutter or iris?

I'd guess neither. It changes the video gain in the electronics.
Don Landis is offline  
post #655 of 1579 Old 06-08-2011, 06:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
Don,

The AVC/H.264 codec the software DVMP Pro is using on my computer (Windows 7) is 'Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder.' Windows 7 has a lot more built-in codecs than previous systems. The point is this is plain vanilla, just the codec that came with the machine. You can under options select the codec for the software to use; it may just have defaulted to something it can't use.

I have attached a screenshot showing the software in action with your clip (shutter at 1/180th).
LL
markr041 is offline  
post #656 of 1579 Old 06-08-2011, 07:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
JonStatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post


AE shift. ( set in 2D only )

So you are saying, that if you set AE Shift in 2D mode, it sticks in 3D mode, even though the menu item is greyed out in 3D? Well done for finding that, but to my mind that's a bug.

Quote:


Jon- Noticed your comment above where you observed the Sony tendency to over expose. Come to think of it, I have too and consequently find I adjust AE shift to lower exposure adjusting to -.5 EV on the TD10 and similar on my other camcorders. Don't own any JVC since the 80's and that was an analog camera anyway.


Dynamic range is the range from the brightest pixel to the darkest pixel captured at the same time. In a sense, this is like contrast ratio. Some sensors are quite limited. If you imagine that true black is 0 and true white is 100. Then consider that the Sony's dynamic range is 50. This would mean at any one time there can only a range such as 0-50, 20-70, 40-90 depending on the exposure of the scene at the time. I was theorising that the JVC might have a wider dynamic range than the Sony. This is fixed to the sensor, and no calibration, exposure compensation or anything else will change it.
JonStatt is online now  
post #657 of 1579 Old 06-08-2011, 07:47 AM
AVS Special Member
 
markr041's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 3,112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Liked: 124
"So you are saying, that if you set AE Shift in 2D mode, it sticks in 3D mode, even though the menu item is greyed out in 3D? Well done for finding that, but to my mind that's a bug."

You may call it a a "bug", but I for one am very glad we can do this. Now note it is greyed out in 3D mode because you cannot alter it in that mode. In any case, it does seem like an odd feature. Let's hope they do not correct this bug in a firmware upgrade (that does other valuable things) so that we cannot have the 2D ev adjustment stick in 3D mode!
markr041 is offline  
post #658 of 1579 Old 06-08-2011, 08:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Joseph Clark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 10,387
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 43 Post(s)
Liked: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonStatt View Post

So you are saying, that if you set AE Shift in 2D mode, it sticks in 3D mode, even though the menu item is greyed out in 3D? Well done for finding that, but to my mind that's a bug.




Dynamic range is the range from the brightest pixel to the darkest pixel captured at the same time. In a sense, this is like contrast ratio. Some sensors are quite limited. If you imagine that true black is 0 and true white is 100. Then consider that the Sony's dynamic range is 50. This would mean at any one time there can only a range such as 0-50, 20-70, 40-90 depending on the exposure of the scene at the time. I was theorising that the JVC might have a wider dynamic range than the Sony. This is fixed to the sensor, and no calibration, exposure compensation or anything else will change it.

This would explain everything I've been struggling to articulate. It should be easy enough to verify through testing.

Joe Clark

Joseph Clark is offline  
post #659 of 1579 Old 06-08-2011, 12:36 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
Don Landis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 10,885
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 112 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Jon- How does your theory explain the difference in a camera that works in 4:2:2 vs, 4:2:0?
Don Landis is offline  
post #660 of 1579 Old 06-08-2011, 03:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
JonStatt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 2,237
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Jon- How does your theory explain the difference in a camera that works in 4:2:2 vs, 4:2:0?

You are focusing very much on chrominance (as the luminance is the same between 4:2:2 and 4:2:0). While the colour does fade out on the Sony as it over-exposes, there are fundamental issues with luminance here. These sorts of things are encoding concerns. The same thing with the expanded colour gamut.

The fundamental issue of being able to "capture" a dark black with the sensor at the same time as the scene contains many bright elements, is at the sensor level before it even gets to the encoder. Even really bad encoders should not lose the luminance dynamic range during the encoding process.

It seems that the brighter the overall scene, the more the Sony has difficulty to capture the dark greys/blacks also present in that same scene. That being said, the differences are far less on indoor shots, which indicates that the Sony is over-exposing so severely that it is crushing all the lighter shades together. Evidence of this can be seen by the fact that detail gets lost too.

Have a look here at a comparison:-
http://www.videoaktiv.de/Praxis+Tech...10/Page-6.html

See the way the Sony loses detail due the extreme over-exposure compared to the JVC.
JonStatt is online now  
Reply 3D Source Components

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off