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post #991 of 1583 Old 09-12-2011, 06:26 PM
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thanks, Don

It's actually a scene from a short cartoon I should have finished by now.

I replaced the single camera with a virtual rig, and shot two seperate streams of pngs with alpha mats. That little sphere in the bkd is the point of convergence & slight adjustment with vegas plat. The puff of smoke is a single stream (one camera) of pngs using vegas for the 3d (duplicated in two video streams and combined). As I am only able to view in anaglyph I'm a little nervous about adjustments. .. btw no keyframes for 3d adj in plat only a global setting as far as I can tell.

I hope to do something more ambitious, once I get more camera experience ... the td10 is so light you really need something to hold it or steady it to get something usable, so it's diy time. I have an old bogen w/ floating head that needs a set of wheels.
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post #992 of 1583 Old 09-12-2011, 08:58 PM
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Quote:


It's actually a scene from a short cartoon I should have finished by now.

OK, what software did you use to paint up your characters. Looks good. I'm impressed with that. ( I'm not an artist and have no talent for drawing )

BTW- the only part I didn't care for is the zoom out on the characters near the end as the background remained fixed. That made the characters look like they were backing away on a hidden cart. or an unnatural move. I took it that you were just experimenting at this point so it really doesn't matter.
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post #993 of 1583 Old 09-12-2011, 09:46 PM
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Oops, I'm sorry they are not drawn, they are 3d models I animated in a program called carrara. It is good for some things, but not others, it crashes a lot,for me.

I should have the new version of lightwave up this week, it has built in stereoscopic tools and is a better program for special fx. Cant wait to do some particle fx in stereo.

I left that zoom out, in, just out of curiosity, to see what the effect looked like.
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post #994 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 06:39 AM
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Just curious, Tony. I did 3D animation in the early days for Broadcast TV and industry ( machinery design for the railroad). Lightwave was just an accessory of the Toaster back then. I primarily worked in 3D Studio under DOS and used Diaquest frame controller and a Targa frame buffer to single frame to 1" tape. I had 11 networked computers in a render farm here and an animation like you did would take a month. I quit the animation business in '92 and got into just shooting and editing.
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post #995 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 08:21 AM
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actually Don, I was at the big Amiga dinner meeting in Chinatown, where they first were discussing creating the toaster. Lightwave was created by Alan Hastings, as a stand alone program, newtek bundled it with LW as it was smart to do. Alan has moved on to Modo, which is an awesome 3d app.

I believe I am the first person to ever create a broadcast tv opening with a small computer .. HBO's Hardcore TV. 1993 I think

I remember 3ds max before windows, ... I still don't like it!
Frame controlling was the big problem back then, especially if you didn't have broadcast equipment. Used to drive us nuts!

sent you a pm.
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post #996 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 08:34 AM
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Actually it was just 3D Studio v 1 2 3 and 4. Then came 3D Studio Max. I dropped out of the beta program with Yost group with the intro of Max. I was not making enough money in 3D animation to continue. We did several TV commercials for Toyota but the bulk of my time was working industrial and forensics. I could use my frame controller to my 3/4 U-matic and didn't need to rent time at the TV station 1" suite. I did a few projects low budget after buying my first Betacam SP deck which worked better than the 1" but by that time I was doing very well shooting for local cable ad dept. 3D Studio was in my past by that time.
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post #997 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 12:01 PM
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The Amiga. I had several of them. Good times.

I had a student who wanted to study 3D animation at the university back in the early 90s, but we had no program. So I worked with him on a specialized curriculum. For the yearly Media Excellence Awards (called The Webbies - for Webster University), he created a 30 second animation in Lightwave. I loaned him my Amiga 3000 and, along with his own Amiga 3000, the animation rendered for a MONTH! When the animation was complete, we laid it off to the University's Panasonic D3 digital video recorder one frame at a time, and from there to S-VHS for the show and his demo reel. That work, along with others, helped him land a job with James Cameron's company before he even graduated - working on Apollo 13. He went on to work for George Lucas, Jeffrey Katzenberg, Peter Jackson and Sony animation, on a wide range of movies. Here's Aaron's IMDb page.

The Amiga was a ground breaking computer. It made so many things affordable in the realm of computer video that previously had been the domain of MUCH more expensive broadcast gear. Because of the Amiga's ahead-of-its-time graphics and sound hardware, and efficient multitasking, it could have been the dominant computer of its era. Too bad the company (Commodore) had a group of bone-heads running it. For my purposes, the Amiga was a Godsend. I wouldn't even consider buying a PC or Mac back then.

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post #998 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 12:14 PM
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The Amiga - Toaster was the low end entry point for the animation industry. But when the big boys using the Onyx super computers saw what was being done with a toy their jaws dropped. The writing was on the wall. My entry point was a tad higher end with the targa board and 3D studio. I agree that the Amiga bone heads really screwed the Toaster development. They could have charged 3 times as much for the Am,iga and double for the Toaster with Lightwave as a high end accessory. 3D Studio back then was $3000 for the software and it wasn't even a ray tracer. I recall Lightwave was a ray tracer which is why it was so slow on render speed. 3D Studio was not therefore it was faster but it didn't do really high quality reflection mapping like Lightwave could.
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post #999 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 12:25 PM
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I could argue that Newtek (makers of the Video Toaster) knew exactly what they were doing. They provided a high level of quality, at a very low price point, and thus opened up tremendous possibilities to so many people who didn't have the resources to compete with the bigger players. I like to think of the Toaster as one of the landmark products in the democratization of video production through digital technology. Newtek remains very successful today with essentially the same philosophy. My student Aaron happened to have remarkable talent, and he was quite focused. I think he would have succeeded no matter what, but the work he did on his Amiga certainly helped open the door to the animation business at just the right time for him.

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post #1000 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 01:29 PM
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The guys who came up with the toaster were brilliant ... they saw the future! ... broadcast engeneers thought they were crazy ,, they were!

Lightwave always had better native rendering than max, it is not raytracing, though it has those options where they are needed. Max may have been faster, but with less rendering options. Everytime I would run into Alan Hastings he would tell me about a new addition to the renderer, the relationship between lw and the toaster gave these guys a tremendous advantage in developing production tools far ahead of their competitors.

I used to own an amiga dealership in nyc, There are a few 3000s that can even output a broadcast signal, .... if commodore hadn't screwed up it could have been the mac.
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post #1001 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony3dd View Post

The guys who came up with the toaster were brilliant ... they saw the future! ... broadcast engeneers thought they were crazy ,, they were!

Lightwave always had better native rendering than max, it is not raytracing, though it has those options where they are needed. Max may have been faster, but with less rendering options. Everytime I would run into Alan Hastings he would tell me about a new addition to the renderer, the relationship between lw and the toaster gave these guys a tremendous advantage in developing production tools far ahead of their competitors.

I used to own an amiga dealership in nyc, There are a few 3000s that can even output a broadcast signal, .... if commodore hadn't screwed up it could have been the mac.

I pushed the Amiga at a school that was totally Mac oriented. In the long run, the Amiga died due to Commodore's mis-management, but the Mac was an overpriced under-performer. The administration insisted on Mac hardware that simply couldn't do what the Amiga could, period, even though it cost much more. In the long run, they could probably claim they were right because of the Amiga's decline, but for years I think we could have done remarkable things with our students. That didn't happen, because trying to get the Mac to do things the Amiga did effortlessly was too expensive.

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post #1002 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 02:07 PM
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And you know, you are not the only one, Joe ....

I knew people all over the country doing the same, and they all were frustrated with people just not getting it! My buddy ran a media lab in Wisconsin and he used to bang his head against the wall with administration.

I don't support the mac, they have always been slower and are overpriced .. I just don't see the value.
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post #1003 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 02:24 PM
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Tony- Joe- the main reason I never bought my own Toaster is because it was composite video and also didn't offer any deck control. Back then we had two options for what I needed for broadcast. Fast Video Machine and Matrox systems. I tested the Matrox at one dealer and they could not get it working. I drove to Miami to a Fast dealer and we set up the board set in my computer and brought along two Betacam SP players, a beta SP recorder, 3/4 U,matic plus an RS422 controlled Hi 8mm VCR and a Control L Sony superbetamax VCR and finally a Panasonic SVHS control L VCR. In 4 hours the VAR had everything configured and set up and began to teach me how to edit with the Fast. It never missed a beat, frame accurate editing on the beta SP, 3/4 Umatic. 8mm, and Betamax. I was doing all sorts of titles, ABC roll editing from a timeline while the decks just spun away flawlessly. The only inaccurate VCR was the SVHS Panasonic but several weeks later I got the control L ballistics finally down and it too was frame accurate. I walked out of his studio that day with the entire system and it set me back $16K, slightly lower than the Matrox but that system rocked! The toaster was just a switcher but it was much lower cost than what I paid for the Fast system. A few years later Fast released the DPR which was an amazing digital video recorder for it's day. It worked along side of deck control and made the system an ABCDE roll edit suite. The entire system from the start was a 4:4:4 component YUV standard so the quality was quite good. The titler was Inscriber and that worked inside of Fast. The sfx was Boris Fx that also was designed for Fast. Between that and 3D Studio, there wasn't much I couldn't do. Plus it was so efficient, I could run rings around the competiton and have more business than I could handle. Soon I had two Fast edit suites here and a second intern helping. When Vegas hit Ver 3 I retired the Fast VM work flow and converted everything to Vegas. Fast was sold to Pinnacle and their NLE software sucked! I was on the beta team and it was so bad I told them I didn't want to be associated with the product. My name was on the DPR for Fast as one of the test team but I made no friends when they sold the company.
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post #1004 of 1583 Old 09-13-2011, 03:05 PM
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There's a big difference in what you were doing as a production pro and what happened in a hands on television production program like ours. Ours was (and still is) a good program, but we had to try to provide each student with the best resources we could, and always within serious budget constraints. In a lab class, I wanted as many learning stations as possible. For those times when students worked in labs on their own, it would have been great to have the ability to fade in and out and do graphic and title overlays. The Amiga could do that with really inexpensive add-on's. Trying to get close with a Mac was very expensive and limited those capabilities to just one or two students at a time, not a lab full of them.

To bring this tangent even remotely back on topic, I'll say that it is precisely hardware like the Sony TD10 and desktop software like Vegas (or my JVC TD1 and Premiere) - and their unbelievable capabilities - that bring us such incredible power at such ridiculously low cost. These production capabilities were simply impossible with our 3/4" and S-VHS editing systems just a few years ago. You had to invest huge amounts of money even to come close to what we can do. And just think - we can even do it 3D now!!! Most people wouldn't have believed it possible to have come so far so fast. And, honestly, you can even count me in that group, even though I like to think I saw things like this coming before most people did.

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post #1005 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 07:36 AM
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I've never owned/used a toaster either, for exactly the same reason, Don. I'm not an editor, but I could see this was going to revolutionize the business. Your 16k was cheap, in relation to your broadcast camera costs. But if that 3 chip svhs camera, is the best you can afford the toaster was like the second comming.

I agree with Joe, though the td10 needs lots of improvements, I think it's going to be a pivotal product in this new 3d revolution.
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post #1006 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 09:19 AM
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It's all relative, Tony. Broadcast level equipment is all expensive. It's relative because you can charge for that in the industry. BUT, you do have to know how to get the shots the client wants and they are ever so picky on the most minor details.
The one complaint I always had with Joe's end of the business is the academics concentrated way too much on perfection and excellence at any cost and failed all too often in educating the videography student how to match the project goal with budgets.

I agree the TD-10 has room for improvements. As I sit here adding a 77mm threaded ring to my second TD-10 to add UV filtering, this is foremost on my mind. I would also like to have additional manual control in the 3D mode. Frank and I both want the composite video out not to be disabled when connecting LANC. I want a cross hairs and grid in the 3D mode on the shooting screen. Ability to keep the camera on when the screen is closed. I miss not having a small eye viewfinder for shooting in bright sun and not needing the Hoodman 450. Sony to make a rectangular lens shade detachable that does not show in full wide 3D. I now have two TD-10's so I don't expect to be buying any more so unfortunately these ideas won't benefit me.
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post #1007 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 11:07 AM
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yep, Don, even though I don't have much shooting experience, those things all bug the hell out of me too, ... believe me, I'd rather have a pro like you come up with the shot, than having to learn how to get something usable by myself.
I'm kinda glad there is limited control on the 3d end, keeps it simple for us beginners.

I'll try and devise some kind of uv filter, cause that's killin' me. If I can't come up with some kind of duct tape hood, I may follow your lead.

Hopefully the td11 will have more features when/if it arrives.
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post #1008 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 11:24 AM
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The UV filter has little use in the typical shots acquired by the 3D user for the TD10 as most of the shots will be under 30 ft distance. However, in 2D mode the TD10 may be called upon to shoot large scenic stuff at great distances and this is where the UV filtering makes a difference. While in 3D the large scenics will be improved, those shots will remain flat.
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post #1009 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 12:02 PM
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I have been looking at the hoodman hoodloope for working in bright light on the TD10. I am not convinced a lcd hood would be good enough. Does anyone have any experience with a hood on the TD10.

I use the Manfrotto 522AV lanc cable adapter with the bebob controller. I think to limitation of not having lanc with video output is a cable issue. I think it would be possibe for someone to produce cable with both functions.

The TD10 is a very good small point and shoot camera which is what I needed but it could have been so much better. The 10x zoom was a good selling point for me.

On the software side I get the impression that some developers are waiting for the coremvc decoder. Certainly cineform is planning mvc support. I am interested in seeing what Vegas Pro 11 will produce particularly with respect to 3D blu-ray.
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post #1010 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

It's all relative, Tony. Broadcast level equipment is all expensive. It's relative because you can charge for that in the industry. BUT, you do have to know how to get the shots the client wants and they are ever so picky on the most minor details.
The one complaint I always had with Joe's end of the business is the academics concentrated way too much on perfection and excellence at any cost and failed all too often in educating the videography student how to match the project goal with budgets. ...

"perfection and excellence at any cost" I can't speak for all teachers, but I don't know any teacher with a philosophy even remotely like this. I certainly don't believe it, and I've never said it or implied it in any way, shape or form to any of my students. My colleagues would have laughed me out of the building if I'd I tried to sell this idea in the classroom.

Certainly there can be a disconnect between school and the rigors of a production environment. Some kids are better prepared than others for the transition. Since I've kept in touch with a number of my own students, I know that many of them have adjusted quite quickly. Indeed, many of them don't seem to have had to make any adjustment at all. They've just stepped into positions and performed well. Several of them are now TV pros working in the St. Louis area, and all over the country. Our program graduated people who went on to become indie film makers, PAs in Hollywood, camera operators, TDs, video editors, professional animators and countless other positions.

Maybe the interns who worked with you were not so great, and soured you on the ability of educational institutions to prepare them for the "real world." I'm sure that's a story that has repeated itself time and again around the country, but it's not the way it always turns out.

I'll relate one final anecdote that I always find amusing. My student Aaron (the animator who's worked on many major animated features) interned for an animation company here in St. Louis. He was not particularly well treated or respected by the owner. A few years later, Aaron ran into this man at an animation conference, I believe in Texas. After telling Aaron how well he was doing professionally, he condescendingly offered to see if he could get him special seating for the opening of the event. Aaron politely declined and told him that he was giving the keynote address and already had a good seat. Schools are different, teachers are different, kids are different. You can't assume they're all the same.

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post #1011 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 03:11 PM
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Trevor- The hoodman loupe is good for a 2D application only. If that is satisfactory then it works. The device is used with a rubber adapter to increase the size to that of the TD10 screen. It is worn on a lanyard around your neck and you hold it up to the screen when needed. There isn't a means to attach it semi-permanently to the screen like the Hoodman 450. The main issue I have with the HD450 is having to attach it. That takes time I sometimes don't have. Generally when needing it I leave it attached and use the button to switch the camcorder on and off. Viewing the screen better in bright light with the HD450 is definitely an improvement. It folds flat and I can carry it like a wallet in my pocket when not on the camcorder.

There are adapter cables with both Lanc and A/V, even Y/C to the 10 pin Sony connector but these are listed with a warning that some Sony camcorders disable the A/V output when accessing the LANC. The HDR TD10 is in that list of camcorders. I believe Frank also discovered this when he purchased one of these cables. I have not personally tested as I learn from Frank's experience and what I've read. I bought the manfrotto adapter here for my twin camera bench 3D setup.


Joe- I hesitated to post my experience with a few interns here locally as I kind of knew you may take offense to it. Please understand you aren't to be held responsible for all programs everywhere. You don't need to defend them. You could have just given me an example of how your courses teach budgets and how to maximize profits in the business while producing art that meets requirements, not always exceeding them at any cost.
I can only tell you that the students who worked with me were ALL introduced to the concept of working inside a budget by the OJT internships not in class. You can be proud of your students who passed through your classes and went on to work in the industry. That was not what I was pointing out. It was that the concept of working inside a budget was not something that seemed to be important to those that worked with me when they came on board. I know that after they worked with me for awhile that concept was driven home.
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post #1012 of 1583 Old 09-14-2011, 07:18 PM
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Warning: This strays a bit off topic - please skip if you are so inclined.

No offense taken at all, Don. For the record, our program included study of budget considerations at every level. As students progressed, budgets received greater emphasis. Intro courses stressed basic production technique and vocabulary to a far greater degree, as was only appropriate. I was simply trying to clarify what to me seemed a generalization on your part - the "perfection and excellence at any cost" part. I've heard you make similar comments before and I don't know where they're coming from. To me, working within a budget, and on a deadline, is a concept so fundamental to production that students (at least in our program) seemed to understand it with the greatest of ease. In even the most basic intro course, they heard things like: these four projects are due in mid-September, October, November and December, and here's how you can use your lab fee to pay for production costs, both individually and for your group projects.

Deadlines and budget (student project or "real world") imply you make the most of what you have in terms of resources and time. You may want a particular shot, but if there's no time or budget for it, it's not possible. It's very simple. Most students had no zero trouble "getting" that. Of course, we've all run into chowder heads who seem to "get" nothing. Maybe you were unfortunate enough to get more than your fair share of them.

As for me personally, when I have all the time in the world to do what I want (as I do right now), I don't worry how long it takes to get my shots. I'm not answering to anyone but myself. There are probably a lot more people in that boat here on AVS than production pros who depend on their TD10s for a living.

Again, I'm not taking offense. I just wanted to clarify.

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post #1013 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 03:40 AM
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Hi Don

It seems as though the hoodloope can be straped on with HCAM4 mounting strap. An HR305 head riser would also be needed. Yes it is not stereoscopic but it could be usefull in bright sunlight. I cannot find a UK supplier for the HD450.

Looking at the reviews of the TD10 it looks as though it could benifit from colour correction. Cineform Firstlight has a Look Up Table for colour correction. I have been looking at ways to calibrate the TD10. Up to now every thing I looked at is very expensive. DSC test charts are expensive but xrite produce the color checker at a reasonable price. Then there is the problem of generating the correction table. I have Adobe onlocation which has vector scopes etc to measure the levels. Does anyone have experience of calibrating camcorders?.
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post #1014 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 05:29 AM
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Not sure if it had been said here before , but since i updated PowerDVD 11 today it plays 3D TD10 mts files out of the box (audio & video). :-)
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post #1015 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
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Not sure if it had been said here before , but since i updated PowerDVD 11 today it plays 3D TD10 mts files out of the box (audio & video). :-)

That would be a game changer. What are minimum hardware requirements? What additional forms of 3D can it play? How about iso 3D? Why MTS? Those are already unfit as is for playback. I want m2ts real time 3D playback of PMB stitched together and audio synced files plus 3D timeline rendered 3D file playback.
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post #1016 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 06:26 AM
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Trevor- there are other hood shades referenced in the thread but I think the HD450 is best. You could make one easy enough. It just uses Velcro straps with elastic bands to hold it on. IMHO the loupe is awkward to use because you have to get your head right next to the little camera.

I've been using Vegas for color correction for years. Has a complete set of scopes including realtime histogram. Plus you can keyframe the corrections over time.
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post #1017 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 06:43 AM
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That would be a game changer. What are minimum hardware requirements? No idea! What additional forms of 3D can it play? How about iso 3D? Why MTS? Those are already unfit as is for playback. I want m2ts real time 3D playback of PMB stitched together and audio synced files plus 3D timeline rendered 3D file playback.
PowerDVD Ultra shows version 11.0.2024.53

Just tested, it plays m2ts properly (copied and stiched via PMB, 25GB single file)

I have no idea about hardware requirements. I have a Nvidia 3D Vison Notebook...

Waiting for Vegas Pro 11 or Avid to get their act together, so no idea about rendered files...

3D ISO (Bluray) give me a moment...just like before only via "virtual clone drive"
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post #1018 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 09:09 AM
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Looking good. I can load the 3D iso file into virtual drive but haven't been able to play anything in 3D yet. I'm on vista 64.

Everybody uses stereoscopic player but I haven't spent the money to test it here. It would only be a minor time savings over burning the iso file and playing in a set top player.
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post #1019 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 09:19 AM
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Everybody uses stereoscopic player but I haven't spent the money to test it here. It would only be a minor time savings over burning the iso file and playing in a set top player.
Last time I checked, you don't have to buy it to try it.
It's fully functional for five minutes of play time and then it stops and you have to restart it.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #1020 of 1583 Old 09-15-2011, 11:29 AM
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Frank- Thanks- Decided to go ahead and test it and it was annoying having to restart it a dozen times or so before I got it tuned to working properly. The nvidia 3D didn't work even though that's the card I have, not sure why. The left and right looked like it was way out of alignment but using SBS Left first and scaled with half width gave me a similar quality as I get with the same iso on 3D BD so I guess it works fine. Sure does decode everything and plays smoothly. Also had to download their recommended codecs for video and audio. So, the player now works on my secondary monitor Vizio 32"

Oh, I also tested the m2TS files. These play in 3D on the Vizio BUT they do not play flawlessly. Better than in Vegas player but there is still some hesitation and occasional picture breakup. Most likely my slower computer if others are doing fine.
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