Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 41 - AVS Forum
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post #1201 of 1579 Old 12-06-2011, 10:44 AM
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Hi everyone, apologies if I am not posting in the right place. I have been an avid reader of this thread from the beginning and am a proud owner of the HDR-TD10E, Vegas Pro 11, Vegas Platinum and Cyberlink PowerDirector 10 Ultra. I am in Europe (France) so I am always particularly interested to hear Wolfgang speak about recommended settings for burning to blu ray etc. However my problem is more fundamental. PMB has stopped working on me. It used to work FINE before. I am now unable to burn either 2D or 3D. The process begins and then about 13% in, I get the message "cannot write to the disc because an error occurred". I can burn to the same blu ray disc in the other programs. The PMB (what I can find) suggests that this might be a codec error. I uninstalled KLite Codec pack (which I had recently installed), rebooted but still no good. PowerDirector is a recent acquisition. Could this be responsible for the error? I am trying to figure out what change to my configuration could have caused PMB to stop working. Of course I would like to have both programs installed and functioning. I must add that I updated PMP to the latest version 5.0.02.10270 to see if that would do the trick but it didn't. I reinitialized PMP but still no good. Has anyone else had a similar problem with PMB? Thanks in advance
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post #1202 of 1579 Old 12-07-2011, 12:44 AM
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Well, I have not seen issues with the pmb up to now, and I have installed also the PD10. Frankly spoken, I would assume that you have killed your system with codec packages or other things. Do you have an earlier image from your system? It is always nice to have such images, for example generated with tools like trueimage. If you do not have an image, I would expect that the solution may be a new setup of your system. That is work, but should work out really. And if you do so, invest the money in such an image tool and create some images at different installations phases - so one for windows and the driver only (so a clean base system). A secoid one after installation of the major applications, that you trust really (your editiors or whatever you have). And after you have such a clean installation and checked that it seems to work fine, then you can start to play with things like codec packages. If something goes wrong, you always can go back to a clean system within 20 minutes or so.

For the render settings: since you are in PAL-country, for TD10 you have 2 possibilities:
- either you generate a 3D Blu Ray from the timeline with the Sony AVC/MVC encoder to 720 50p. Settings for that can be found here (sorry, it is in German, but the wordings for Vegas are at least in english):
http://www.videotreffpunkt.com/threa...threadid=13106

- the othre way is more tricky to - to render to 1080 50p, then stretch the timeline by ~4% and render to 1080 24p. This way has been published in some detail in the last German magazin Videoaktiv digital, but sorry there is no englisch publication of that and it is not available for free.

http://www.videoaktiv.de/20111104656...die-Augen.html

You could also try to render your project to 1080 24p in a direct way, but only with Vegas Pro 11 in build 425/426. And even then the outcome will not be completely free of errors.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
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post #1203 of 1579 Old 12-08-2011, 09:39 AM
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I have since returned the TD10 that I had bought to try out in our trip to Europe.

I still have my 750gb WD My Passport external USB hard drive that has all the 3D video archived via the TD10. I do know that the current PMB 5.8 software in conjunction with the TD10 looks (I don't know for sure, that's why I'm asking ) like the only way of burning a 3D bluray in the highest quality resolution (like the original source in AVCHD 2.0 spec). I don't want any menus/transitions, etc. I do want chapter markers if that's possible.

The reason I'm asking is that right now locally, I can purchase the Sony S580 3D Bluray player for $100 (taxes incl.) or for FREE with my Visa Avion points so that would enable me to play 3D blurays burned in the new AVCHD 2.0 spec. I am currently playing any 3D material with my PS3.

Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!
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post #1204 of 1579 Old 12-08-2011, 03:47 PM
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Thanks Wolfgang. Yikes. I wasn't expecting such a radical solution. I don't feel up to wiping clean by computer just yet. Since I did very little (except it seems install some codecs needed for another program), I am really surprised that this has completed disabled PMP for me. I uninstalled it, reinstalled again, installed the new version with the BD software too and still the same error. Sony Vegas works fine.

For the moment I don't have one of the Sony BD players that will read AVCHD 2.0 so I think I am just going to make do with the less than perfect rendering of Vegas or PD10 and keep the original files on hard disk. Maybe this same software will also be able to burn the HDR-TD10 files into AVCHD 2.0 without rendering in the same manner as PMP in the future. I am still able to import media into PMP.

In answer to fd13fdx, I was going to buy a Sony player myself until PMP stopped working on me and did a fair amount of reseach. By European standards, $100 is an excellent price (you would need to pay practically double that over here). It is, as far as I know, only one of three players that will play the AVCHD 2.0 files. The only difference between the s480 and the s580 is the wireless feature though frankly, I'd probably prefer to go for the Ethernet cable. The s780 is also Skype compatible (though you need to buy the camera which over here is about €100) and the remote control is backlit. The guy at the Sony Store in Paris told me that the player itself was the same as the other two models though, to be honest, I am not sure if he knew what he was talking about.
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post #1205 of 1579 Old 12-08-2011, 04:31 PM
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Even if I have to state that I cannot be sure if the codec package is the reason for your problems with the pmb, I know that a lot of people have killed their system with such codec packages. So, I would say it is a possible reason.

Well, rendering is not perfect since the Blu Ray consortia forces us to render 1080 50i to 720 50p. If they would have specified 1080 50i/60i for 3D BD too, what should have been possible, we would not have that issue.

If a software learns to create AVCHD 2.0 file structures for 3D BD, then maybe the PD10. For Vegas I would not think so, since that is no professional structure, even if the quality is slightly better.

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post #1206 of 1579 Old 12-09-2011, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f13dfx View Post

I have since returned the TD10 that I had bought to try out in our trip to Europe.

I still have my 750gb WD My Passport external USB hard drive that has all the 3D video archived via the TD10. I do know that the current PMB 5.8 software in conjunction with the TD10 looks (I don't know for sure, that's why I'm asking ) like the only way of burning a 3D bluray in the highest quality resolution (like the original source in AVCHD 2.0 spec). I don't want any menus/transitions, etc. I do want chapter markers if that's possible.

The reason I'm asking is that right now locally, I can purchase the Sony S580 3D Bluray player for $100 (taxes incl.) or for FREE with my Visa Avion points so that would enable me to play 3D blurays burned in the new AVCHD 2.0 spec. I am currently playing any 3D material with my PS3.

Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

If you installed the PMB 5.8 before returning the TD10, you can still use the bluray burning feature of that, even if the TD10 is no longer present.

There does not seem to be any other burning tools to author new AVCHD 2.0 3D bluray at this time, though image burner software can make duplicates of bluray AVCHD disks previously burned with PMB 5.8.

Are you in a situation where the AVCHD 2.0 3D burning features of PMB 5.8 are no longer accessible?

To play back the 1080i60 files, so far only the Sony 480 580 and 780 players do this from burned media, or a software player can be used with the 1080i60-3D files.

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post #1207 of 1579 Old 12-13-2011, 12:54 AM
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post #1208 of 1579 Old 12-13-2011, 08:41 AM
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Anyone else keep having the 3d auto lens adjust thing come up alot more now than when first used? Its happening quite a bit now for me and to be honest its a pain to have the right environment to run it and have it perfectly steady.
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post #1209 of 1579 Old 12-13-2011, 02:55 PM
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I am curious how well does the TD10 function in the dark or shooting fireworks? Does it look good? I ask because I may buy the DEV 5 which is like the TD10 but it has 2 CMOS chips.

3D items I own:

Sony 46" LX900 active 3D set

Sony HMZ-T3 (Cushion pads and light blocker mod)

LG LW6500 passive 3D set

PS3 & PS4

Sony BDP-S570 BD3D player

JVC-GS-TD1 (with Cyclopital base extender)

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Sony Alpha 55 (for 3D panoramic photos)

Quadcopter + Zenmuse and GoPro Hero 3 (Filming...

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post #1210 of 1579 Old 12-13-2011, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bravia3D View Post

I am curious how well does the TD10 function in the dark or shooting fireworks? Does it look good? I ask because I may buy the DEV 5 which is like the TD10 but it has 2 CMOS chips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT2LktPvP4g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtv2lXdB2Aw


I hope to do some more soon using twin TD10's in 2D mode paired for 3D using IA of 9"
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post #1211 of 1579 Old 12-14-2011, 01:22 AM
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Very nice Don, how did they look on your 3D TV? Also how does it compare to the black levels of the JVC?

3D items I own:

Sony 46" LX900 active 3D set

Sony HMZ-T3 (Cushion pads and light blocker mod)

LG LW6500 passive 3D set

PS3 & PS4

Sony BDP-S570 BD3D player

JVC-GS-TD1 (with Cyclopital base extender)

Fujifilm W3

Sony Alpha 55 (for 3D panoramic photos)

Quadcopter + Zenmuse and GoPro Hero 3 (Filming...

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post #1212 of 1579 Old 12-15-2011, 12:59 AM
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I don't have a JVC so I don't know how the blacks do. I would imagine the JVC has a bit of red tint in the blacks because JVC is known for its red push while Sony is known for a cooler less saturated color. Of course this can be adjusted in post as long as the noise level is not too obvious and I think both are very good for noise. There is a little secret to shooting good black level, in general. If your overall scene is low light the blacks on a consumer camcorder will often compensate to an auto gain gray. If you shoot with some bright light in the shot and use manual gain plus adjust your iris to just properly expose the whites, the blacks will get pitch black.
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post #1213 of 1579 Old 12-15-2011, 04:11 AM
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Cool, thanks for the info Don

3D items I own:

Sony 46" LX900 active 3D set

Sony HMZ-T3 (Cushion pads and light blocker mod)

LG LW6500 passive 3D set

PS3 & PS4

Sony BDP-S570 BD3D player

JVC-GS-TD1 (with Cyclopital base extender)

Fujifilm W3

Sony Alpha 55 (for 3D panoramic photos)

Quadcopter + Zenmuse and GoPro Hero 3 (Filming...

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post #1214 of 1579 Old 12-15-2011, 10:33 PM
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This 3D video demonstrates the night-time performance of the TD10. Excellent blacks. Nighttime shots in mnaual mode, for the reasons Don gives.

http://youtu.be/MrB_6APr4QA?hd=1
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post #1215 of 1579 Old 12-19-2011, 09:04 AM
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Hi All,
I co-produce the 3D Theatre session at the annual Stereoscopic Displays and Applications conference: http://www.stereoscopic.org/3dcinema
Does anyone have a tightly-edited well-produced 3D piece (up to 3mins long) filmed with the HDR-TD10 that they'd be willing to allow us to screen at the conference (23-25 January 2012)?
If so, please send me a PM and I'll provide you with more details.
Best Regards,
Andrew Woods.
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post #1216 of 1579 Old 12-19-2011, 09:57 AM
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I remember reading somewhere on here that the XLR handle from the NX70U or NX3D1 would work on this camera. Does anyone know the part number of the handle?

Thanks,

CT
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post #1217 of 1579 Old 12-20-2011, 12:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natiahs View Post

I remember reading somewhere on here that the XLR handle from the NX70U or NX3D1 would work on this camera. Does anyone know the part number of the handle?

Thanks,

CT

I already tried this and it does not. Well, I suppose you could go in and hack up the connection interface to make it work. The case of the NX3D1 is different from the TD10 and the TD10 has no mountings for the handle. It is unknown whether the hot shoe of the TD10 electronics will support the xlr handle.
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post #1218 of 1579 Old 12-20-2011, 08:19 AM
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My Magic Kingdom Fireworks 3D Video shot with the twin TD-10 rig using 9" IA is up at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSt_SgzBVw0


The two TD-10's were set in full IA mode but controlled using the Lanc Shepherd device. The lens was set to full wide angle.

In case you want to try this--
Getting an ideal shoot location with full front view was not easy. It was the most difficult part of the project as the crowds were packed in tight shoulder to shoulder. I scouted out a dozen locations throughout the day but settled in on this one and the only issue I had with it was the light pole located about half way to the castle. It pops out in the foreground of the 3D due to using such a wide IA on the cameras. The 9" IA was selected based on a main subject stage of 1.5 miles wide and .75 miles to the front of the stage ( fireworks ).

The TD-10 cameras were both in 2D mode 1080 24p x 1920 ( FX quality ). I imported the clips using PMB and edited in Vegas Pro using properties set for 1080 23.976fps.

I used an external 5.1 mic on one camera and the internal mic 5.1 on the second camera but after syncing the two clips I deleted the audio from the camera with the external 5.1 mic based on the fact that in my edit suite that mic did not have the best LFE quality. I used no filters for this shoot so there was nothing blocking the sound direction.

The YouTube rendering looks best using SBS on a 3D monitor set to 1080p in YT.
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post #1219 of 1579 Old 12-20-2011, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I already tried this and it does not. Well, I suppose you could go in and hack up the connection interface to make it work. The case of the NX3D1 is different from the TD10 and the TD10 has no mountings for the handle. It is unknown whether the hot shoe of the TD10 electronics will support the xlr handle.

Thanks, Don. Really appreciate the heads up.

CT
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post #1220 of 1579 Old 12-26-2011, 07:02 AM
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This may be old news for many of you, but in case it isn't... I received this email from Laura Brown of GoPro.

*******
We *are* actually the Neo3D folk, so you're in luck! CineForm was acquired by GoPro this year, and we're in the process of rebranding our products from 'Neo' to 'GoPro CineForm Studio' lineup. The product that will replace Neo3D is GoPro CineForm Studio Professional.

More good news. Your Sony TD10 source is now supported!

Are you 100% Mac, or do you use Windows as well? If you want to try out the Windows software, use the links I sent before. If you're only Mac, please let me know that and I'll make a note on my list here to add you to the Mac beta list.
*******

And here's the original email, with links for Windows betas -

*******

Dear GoPro/CineForm User,

Thank you for you interest in the Premium and/or Professional version of GoPro CineForm Studio for Windows. Good news: Our first round of betas are now available for download!

As these products are so close to public release, our beta time will be limited. Please report any issues or feedback promptly so that we can address any bugs asap. You may report any technical issues directly to me (lbrown@gopro.com).

You will be running this beta software in trial mode. We suggest a complete clean install, so please remove any previous versions of CineForm or GoPro/CineForm software before you install the new software.

We appreciate your time and effort in helping us test these awesome new products. Enjoy!

If you currently use Neo (Windows), download GoPro CineForm Studio Premium here: http://software.gopro.com/PC/GoProCi...m-1.1.1.95.zip

If you currently use Neo 3D (Windows), download GoPro CineForm Studio Professional here: http://software.gopro.com/PC/GoProCi...o-1.1.1.95.zip

**Note to Neo 3D users: Independent eye correction is not yet enabled, so we've included a current version of FirstLight so that you do not lose any of your current features/functionality. This feature will be enabled in the Studio before public release.

*******

As I'm a Mac user, I'm very excited and eager to get my hands on the beta. I'm hoping some of you Windows mavens will check out the Windows beta, and let us know what you think! Thanks, and happy new year -

Randy
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post #1221 of 1579 Old 01-05-2012, 10:20 PM
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I'm trying to psyche myself up to purchase this or the JVC.

My main concern at the moment is outdoor contrast and saturation being blown out in every single outdoor shot I've seen on Youtube.

Does anyone feel like shooting a test video or know of an existing video that employs the exposure adjustment knob?
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post #1222 of 1579 Old 01-06-2012, 04:35 PM
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When shooting manual, there may always be times that an event may blow out the shot while shooting. I use auto most of the time so these things can be auto compensated for. This works 99% of the time. But for really good Professional looking work, adding filters is the way to achieve EFP results. I even have a gradient neutral density filter set for toning down the sky and prevent the terrain from going too dark. These filters aren't cheap in 77mm but you can find sales all the time. I rarely pay more than $12 for them.
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post #1223 of 1579 Old 01-06-2012, 05:07 PM
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Yeah, it's pretty easy to blow out just about any camera. Just put a really bright light source into a dark setting (doesn't even have to be that dark, comparatively) and you exceed the contrast range of the camera - blowout! Professional crews go to great lengths to avoid it (giant sunshades and reflectors, filtration placed over the outside of windows to reduce the level of light streaming in and change its color temperature). Most of the time, we just live with the compromise at this level and accept that it's not going to be perfect.

That said, you can make a big difference with a few simple tricks. For instance, shoot with the sun (or any bright light source) behind you as much as possible. Shooting into bright light almost invariably destroys the shot. When shooting in direct sunlight, have a friend with a white poster board stand off to one side for medium shots and closeups. Reflect light onto the shadow side of your subject's body. It will pull in the contrast from the dark side to the light side and make that shot look 100% better. It makes a night and day difference.

Joe Clark

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post #1224 of 1579 Old 01-06-2012, 11:49 PM
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Right on Joe- When I did my location shoots for my TV show we used all those flags, tents and such for the main scenes. However, when we went out to shoot a man on the street interview, the setup was much simpler, at most my grip would hold a fold away "light disk" reflector. Now with in the crowd run and gun style I do 99% of the time, I just use a filter on the lens at most.
Electronic Field Production-(EFP) Full grip truck on location. a ton of gear to set up.
Electronic News Gathering- (ENG) Shoot it to get the story and run to the next shot and shoot it to get the story.
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post #1225 of 1579 Old 01-10-2012, 08:37 AM
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Sony has announced the TD20 at CES but still no 24p in 3D. Clearly Sony don't listen to thier customers. It is interesting that Canon have not entered this market. If only they could produce a 3D version of the G10 I would sell my TD10.

The HXR-NX3D is very overpriced for the extra sound quality and 24p it gives.
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post #1226 of 1579 Old 01-10-2012, 10:10 AM
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The reduced lens spacing on the TD20 wasn`t the best idea either...
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post #1227 of 1579 Old 01-10-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Right on Joe- When I did my location shoots for my TV show we used all those flags, tents and such for the main scenes. However, when we went out to shoot a man on the street interview, the setup was much simpler, at most my grip would hold a fold away "light disk" reflector. Now with in the crowd run and gun style I do 99% of the time, I just use a filter on the lens at most.
Electronic Field Production-(EFP) Full grip truck on location. a ton of gear to set up.
Electronic News Gathering- (ENG) Shoot it to get the story and run to the next shot and shoot it to get the story.

Sorry to hear about your friend, Don. I know how much that must have hurt.

Joe Clark

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post #1228 of 1579 Old 01-10-2012, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trevorjharris View Post

Sony has announced the TD20 at CES but still no 24p in 3D. Clearly Sony don't listen to thier customers. It is interesting that Canon have not entered this market. If only they could produce a 3D version of the G10 I would sell my TD10.

The HXR-NX3D is very overpriced for the extra sound quality and 24p it gives.

I'd rather see 48p-3D. That is the next generation of movie production. It would be easy enough to convert 48p to 24p, for playback compatibility with the clunky current breed of players and TVs.

Push the envelope on the source side until the playback side catches up.

Not sure what pressure would have made the TD20 smaller than the TD10. Could customer feedback have driven that?

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post #1229 of 1579 Old 01-15-2012, 11:54 AM
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RE: Neo3D software for Mac..... This rumor has been gone over on the Apple discussion groups.

There is no evidence that this software will allow "full editing" on a Mac. You have to remember that in addition to the software required for editing, there are also hardware considerations, including graphic cards, drives (if you want Bluray), monitors, etc., that are more PC based. I have contacted Neo and asked for more technical information, including hardware requirements, but have received no response. Regardless, the software sells for $999.00 so it better work seamlessly.

Apple has made the serious mistake of ignoring 3D as a future media. So far, all attempts to fully edit Sony 3D footage on Apple products have failed, although some may have found complex, time consuming and expensive ways to do it. I am not aware of any Mac method that is as stable and fully featured as PC editing.

Your best bet is to go with a PC laptop designed to edit 3D footage.

W.
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post #1230 of 1579 Old 03-06-2012, 03:41 PM
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Greetings all. I have read through a lot of threads and apologize if this is a repeat question but how is everyone rendering their 3d Content. I have been playing with my SONY HDR-TD10 since Christmas with Vegas PRO 11 and PMB and Roxio and cant for the life of me get a rendering that looks anywhere as nice as the camera plugged into my 3d TV. SBS Full/Half/Real 3d etc all I get is half resolution, lots of ghosting or bad jittering with little 3d effects. Must have burned through 30 Blu Ray disks. The camera manual says it outputs to TV in Frame Pack mode to get full resolution but none of the products seem to offer that.

Love the camera and native display but rendering is beyond me so far. Any advice welcome as I am running out of memory and SD card and don’t want to offload till I know I can reproduce the on camera quality. If I am interpreting this post it sounds like 720 is best we can get on a render?? Hope not.

Mark
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