Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 1579 Old 03-31-2012, 04:08 PM
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Today i printed a resolution chart and played with my cams.
What was interesting that TD10 in 2D mode is a lot-lot sharper than in 3D mode! I think it's because the full sensor area is not used because of parallax adjusting possibilities, but i wondered how blurry is the picture in 3D mode In fact even my many years old Canon HV10 with 1440x1080i resolution was way sharper!
I also have a HX7V full hd camera, and grabbed some frames in progressive format. I get the same resolution like with TD10 in 2D mode.

Back to TD10:
AE shift work in 2D. Is there any trick to work also in 3D?
Also i have read in one topic (not remember which) for a trick using the TD10 in 3D,
which was not documented in manual. Somebody can explain again? thx
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post #1262 of 1579 Old 03-31-2012, 04:21 PM
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At one time I thought AE shift would hold for 3D mode if set in 2D but I don't think so mow. Therefore when I believe exposure is too bright (Usually the case) I push the button and select manual exposure and then ride that control for the shot. This is what I had to do for the Kelly Pickler performance on my YT channel. They blasted the girl's face with shotgun spot lights and the video got torched until I could switch to manual exposure.

I haven't seen image softness from 3D mode to 2D at all here and I'm presently working on a project where I shot most of the scenes with ultra stereo base TD10's in 2D and paired in post. 5" - 30" IA depending on the stage size. Then some shots were done with a single TD10 in 3D mode because I needed the tighter IA for closeup shots. The shots are identical in image sharpness.
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post #1263 of 1579 Old 03-31-2012, 11:26 PM
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So, that was the trick which i read here somewhere, but finally i have to forget it?
As i remember it also worked by somebody, and he hoped that with the next firmware this will not be disabled.

"I haven't seen image softness from 3D mode to 2D at all here"

Hmm, your TD10 differs from mine (again), maybe the NTSC version differs from the PAL?

Here is the test grabbed progressive frames.

First, compare TD10 in 2D and 3D (with stabilizer off):
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-td10-2d.png
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-td10-3d.png
I think anybody can see the difference. It's not small.

Here is the nice, light hx7v:
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-hx7v.png

And my (not used anymore) HV10:
http://www.relaxvideo.hu/res-hv10.png
Pretty good from 1440x1080 source, isn't?

Can you also do the test? No chart is needed, just a scene with small details in 2D and 3D mode.

thx
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post #1264 of 1579 Old 04-01-2012, 01:56 AM
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The test chart needs to be properly set up in order to do any meaningful comparison. You need to align the chart with the small white triangles at the edge of the frame in each shot. There are two for each top, bottom, left and right sides ( 8 total) It seems you either were unaware of how to use the chart or didn't care about getting meaningful test measurement. The chart must be placed so that it is not leaning back at the top nor shot off center at an angle. You don't need to compare the TD10 to another camera with different imager as while it may be fascinating it has nothing to do with the claim that the TD10 has less resolution in 3D mode than 2D. Also, when you pull a 2D still off the 3D TD10 all you are looking at is the same left camera in in both modes, so your mode for shooting needs to be the same also, mode in this case to mean the 2D has to be set to the same as the 3D since there is only one 3D shooting mode allowed ( frame rate 60i and size 1080x1920 and bit rate for a single left eye camera ) I'm not sure what the bit rate setting in Image/size selection in the TD10 menu would be. While there may be some reason for comparing the 2D image grab from a 2D shot, it would be better to compare the visual res test in a 3D image since that is really what we are trying to compare. This presents some tricky decisions on how to do that. Easier to do it for a 3D video clip of the chart and compare with a 2D video of the chart, but this is just to make the test more representative of how the cameras will be used.

What I can tell you is that when I shoot twin TD10's in 2D for stereo pairs, I set them for maximum quality in 24p which I know is a higher bit rate than the 3D mode allows. Then in post I am converting my few 60i 3D shots to 24p for the edit. So, yes, this in and of itself technically will result in a lower "quality" than the paired clips. But the real question is: How critical and how noticeable is that difference? I say it is far less important than the other aspects of my project which is 1. story line, 2. exposure, color match, focus, 3D parallax, framing, and sound quality, 3. overall presentation flow. I recognize that I am working with different cameras and shooting in different modes with the same camera. To me, the subtle differences in the resultant image are undetectable by my audience. But here I'm referring to just a philosophy of TV production, not the technical measurements of two different modes of operation of the same camera.

Bottom line to all this is pretty simple, From what you showed me in the tests, even though the chart was not properly aligned, the TD10 appears to be working within design specifications. If you feel the TD10 is inadequate for your work then I suggest you shop for higher quality equipment. If you feel your TD10 is defective and needs repair, send it in to Sony but from what I see I'm afraid your biggest challenge will be to convince the repair tech there is something broke that he can fix to your satisfaction.
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post #1265 of 1579 Old 04-01-2012, 02:17 AM
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Yes, i don't made it with properly setup, studio quality test, just a quick test, chart on my bed, etc. I placed the cam always so the top and bottom white triangles just doesn't go out of the frame.
But i don't think a better test environment can give another result. In fact, i record 2 other charts too, with exactly the same result. So i'm sure this is the reality, and this is what i saw with my naked eyes: the resolution is much lower in 3D mode than in 2D.

"You don't need to compare the TD10 to another camera"

Why you say this? I will do a film with TD10 and for far object with two HX7V, so i will mix the videos, and don't want big difference in picture quality.

Recording mode was 50i in both 2D and 3D mode..

"it has nothing to do with the claim that the TD10 has less resolution in 3D mode than 2D."

Yes, i just showed the test result for people who are interested in it. Like the HV10 result.

"But the real question is: How critical and how noticeable is that difference?"
Yes, in fact i made this test not because i was curious or have several hours leisure, instead because i saw this resolution loss with my eyes!
I saw it has lower resolution than my HV10, etc.

"it is far less important than the other aspects of my project"
I agree, that many aspects are important too, but for me the resolution is in the first 3 aspect for sure. On a fullhd tv i want to see crystal clear fullhd videos..

"If you feel the TD10 is inadequate for your work then I suggest you shop for higher quality equipment."
Yes, when i buyed not many alternatives was available:
3DNX1, which has the same optics and sensor, so the quality is equal.
JVC TD1, maybe a better resolution, but narrower FOV, pulsing highlight,
worse lcd screen, etc.

"If you feel your TD10 is defective and needs repair"
I don't think any service can amend the resolution, it seems all td10 is work so because the parallax adjustment possibilities

regards!
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post #1266 of 1579 Old 04-01-2012, 08:02 AM
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You may have confirmed a qualitative difference with improperly set up tests but then you already were convinced there was a qualitative difference. Running more qualitative examples doesn't result in quantitativedata which is what the charts would give you if run properly. Not that it matters because you have your mind set that the TD10 isn't high enough quality for your needs. I don't question that.
Quote:


"You don't need to compare the TD10 to another camera"
Why you say this? I will do a film with TD10 and for far object with two HX7V, so i will mix the videos, and don't want big difference in picture quality.

I thought I explained but again, it has to do with how much difference and your original question that the TD10 in 3D isn't as high resolution as TD10 in 2D. I'm presently working on a project with a huge range of scene sizes and use a single TD10 in 3D mode for small scenes and the larger ones with twin TD10's in 2D FX mode 24fps with wide separation IA for the large distant mountain ranges. IA's vary widely but I'm not seeing a difference between the 3D mode and 2D mode that is significant. Then again, I'm not biasing the comparison either, as my audience is actually viewing under what would be considered a double blind viewing session. Trust me, if I felt the image was inadequate, I would get something that is adequate. For example, I shot a bunch of clips using the Bloggie 3D and have tried to mix with my TD10 and it is just too much of a difference. So, I gave up on that. It was detected in a double blind viewing by my wife who didn't know what she was looking at and saw the difference.

When all of us first saw the TD10 there really was only 2 to choose from in the price category. TD10 from Sony and TD1 from JVC. TD10, IMO, had the advantage too. Today there are more choices. Maybe you need to consider the Panasonic Z10000 which clearly has higher sharpness and is better able to preserve the mode resolution because of the 3 chip cameras. Your needs are different and it may be a better suit for you. For me, it is too big or I would own a pair of them as opposed to a pair of TD10's.
Possibly, in 2-3 years none of these technologies will be satisfactory for your needs as maybe by then you will insist on 4K cams and by then they may be available and affordable. But I want to make 3D today without the expense and difficulty of large complex equipment. I'm officially retired from those days of studio in the field EFP and my only association with it now is to try and sell what's left of my field production truck load of equipment.
Seriously, you should examine the Panasonic z10000. More and more shooters with professional goals are advancing to that system. Or, wait until after NAB announcements and see what will be new. I haven't heard any rumors yet so hopefully I'll be surprised. I will be there and keep you all posted what's new.
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post #1267 of 1579 Old 04-01-2012, 09:24 AM
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OK, Don you are right!
I was wrong. My statement: 3D is a lot softer than 2D is not 100% true.
(now i see a very minor quality difference or nothing)

What changed?
I captured the wrong view: the right frame.
Which is softer than the left!

The issue is also found here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1363453

I read that your cam hasn't this difference, you are lucky!
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post #1268 of 1579 Old 04-01-2012, 01:47 PM
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Quote:


What changed?
I captured the wrong view: the right frame.
Which is softer than the left!

Interesting. If you can clearly document this problem where the right camera doesn't focus track the left camera a good tech should be able to correct this in their diagnostics and calibration application. There is a hot connector on the bottom of the TD10 behind a door that they connect to to do final calibration and setups. I understand it takes only about an hour service charge to do. But I would worry that I get a novice tech who doesn't know how to be precise in the setup. I'm sure that Sony didn't design the right camera to be out of focus sync with the left.

Sony may have a flat rate repair charge or charge by the hour. They operate both ways depending on the camera. If I had your problem it would be worth a phone call to find out what can be done. Then you can make an informed decision. Be sure to ask how long the down time will be. In a discovery diagnostics repair, you will pay for an hour minimum to get your camera back, not repaired and they will give you an estimate. If you go ahead with the repair, you will give them your CC number and they will proceed immediately. I've been through this with Sony many times so I know the drill.
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post #1269 of 1579 Old 04-01-2012, 03:30 PM
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Hey guys, as a break from the all important tech talk, want to share a video with you that I shot on the HDR-TD10 and edited in Vegas 11. It's the start of the Gumball 3000 rally, so cars, models and lots of other crazy people. Hope you like it.
http://youtu.be/9vi787IOJPw
With what parallax I had to work with, it kind of looks best on my Gadmei P83 8" autostereoscopic viewer, ok on a 24" Alienware 3D Vision monitor, but on my 50" plasma it does lack a higher interaxial, but anyway, it's a point and shoot,you have to know your limitations and just work with what you've got.
Please give comments and feedback.
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post #1270 of 1579 Old 04-02-2012, 02:55 PM
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I can set manual exposure in 3D.
How can i know, when i am at zero gain?

The focus assist function only available in 2D mode?

thanks
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post #1271 of 1579 Old 04-02-2012, 04:42 PM
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iWATCH3D- I follow your work on YT and it is always a pleasure to watch.
Quote:


you have to know your limitations and just work with what you've got.

You and I would get along great on a shoot.

________________________

Quote:


I can set manual exposure in 3D.
How can i know, when i am at zero gain?

The focus assist function only available in 2D mode?

relaxman- Don't worry about the numbers. Just adjust the exposure for proper image that you like on the TD10 monitor.

A good way to know what you can and can't adjust in 3D mode on the TD10 is click on the manual adjust button and hold it in and up pops a menu of adjustments. The FIRST THREE on the list are available in 3D mode and all BUT the first one is available in 2D Mode. Or, you could just read the manual.
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post #1272 of 1579 Old 04-02-2012, 11:14 PM
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Thanks, i already read the manual..
Just ask, if there is some trick.

"Just adjust the exposure for proper image that you like on the TD10 monitor."
When i film say at room with 40W lightning, i see in 2D display mode that the dark areas have noise. I want to lower the gain to zero to eliminate noise. But if i set lower and lower the exposure, the noise don't disappear in 4-5 step instead just darken. So i just wanted to know, where is the point, where noise not exist for sure?
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post #1273 of 1579 Old 04-03-2012, 02:03 AM
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Quote:
where is the point, where noise not exist for sure?

When the camera is shut off.

Seriously, the TD10 has a Low Lux mode for 2D. This is a special high gain light amplifier that can produce an image in poor light conditions. It is not a night vision IR amplifier. I don't generally use this except when I have no choice to raise the lighting to acceptable levels. This might be a stage show where the lighting is controlled by the show. Even then there might be not enough light for a good image. AND, it will have a level of noise I can see. There is not one technology, not even high speed film that doesn't add some visible noise to the picture. When it comes to 3D the lack of adequate lighting will ruin the 3D capability and produce poor results. Sony does not enable the Low Lux amplifier in 3D as high noise could be counter productive to creating 3D in video. High speed film may prove to be a better choice and then shoot day for night like is done in the movies to create the illusion of night.

The best low lux, low noise amplifier technology is available through FLIR corp. I have one of these night vision scopes on my rifle for hunting at night. It uses thermal imaging technology. Some camcorders have these options too but none are noise free. Rather they are meant mainly for surveillance, or real night vision applications.

Sometimes you have to follow the excellent advice from IWATCH3D, "you have to know your limitations and just work with what you've got." I would add to that, if you know your camera very well then you will be able to maximize your performance with what you have.
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post #1274 of 1579 Old 04-03-2012, 02:06 AM
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Thanks i mean, where no gain is set.
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post #1275 of 1579 Old 04-03-2012, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relaxman View Post

Thanks i mean, where no gain is set.

Set the manual exposure to center scale. Remember this is an electronic device, not film. But to relate to photographic language for photographers, light amplifier gain or attenuation control is called "exposure" This could be debated all day long but the bottom line is all video will generate some level of noise. In film, noise is called "grain" In video the zero gain is a reference point related to exposure. So, in video there is no such thing as "no gain." All light is processed through amplifiers to record the image. Gain is a relative issue in video. It is not absolute. This means that "no gain" or center scale for one camcorder will be different for another. Unlike film where the sensitivity to light follows the film, not the camera.

____________________________________

Just curious, are you reading this in English or are you translating to your native language? I am concerned that I am writing to get the message across as I know you understand how to shoot with lots of experience. But, I think some things get lost in translation.
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post #1276 of 1579 Old 04-03-2012, 03:27 AM
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Interesting. Thanks for info.
With my Canon XM2 when i set to manual mode, and set 0 gain, i always get very clean picture, without noise. Up to +6dB noise is acceptable, but with higher it's not. I thinked zero gain means record what the sensor see. Yes, of course it also has internal amplifier, but i don't want to go higher with user adjustable gain.

I read in english.
regards
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post #1277 of 1579 Old 04-03-2012, 07:34 AM
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Quote:


I read in english.

Thanks, sometimes the Google translate can get confusing.
______________________

I think it also has to do with the scene. I know that an overall low light with difuse lighting the overall image has to be amplified and this will generate lots of noise. But, much of the work I have done is lots of small bright lights at night with black sky. This can result in a nice low level noise and pitch black surrounding. But when the lighting gets bright enough to expose the surrounding area, often this will produce some noise that otherwise is lost. Check out my Fireworks at Disney on my YT channel This has some scenes of different levels of noise yet the cameras were both set for "Low Light" = off and manual exposure for pitch black sky but not lower exposure.
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post #1278 of 1579 Old 04-08-2012, 05:29 AM
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Hi

is there any trick to use the Content Management Utility for creating separate 2D left-right files from the 3D MVC files (recorded with TD10)
Unfortunately we have only the MTS files, not the additional small files.
The program recognize the files as 3D video, but cannot convert to 2D.
Why?? On our computers Vegas rendering from paired clips are more reliable, than with MVC files on the timeline.
thanks
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post #1279 of 1579 Old 04-08-2012, 07:52 AM
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I'm not familiar with Content Management Utility as it was released for Pro version of the TD10. But, the equivalent utility for output is the Device Explorer in Vegas. Select this under "View". This will also deliver MTS video that is properly formatted for Vegas rendering of the MVC file. Put this clip on the Vegas timeline and select Left only for output in 2D mode for project rendering. Save the file as "Left" Then repeat the process selecting "Right" only. I'm not sure this answers your question but it is what I do to extract the left eye and right eye 2D clips from a 3D MVC TD10 recording.

A better question, I think, is why are you having trouble working with MVC 3D files in Vegas? I work with MVC files and paired files as well as other file types that are supported with no problems in Vegas. Most of my MVC files are imported in batch with the PMB and if I have one or two files to bring in I will just connect the TD10 and use Device explorer. Now I may have m2ts and MTS files mixed on the timeline plus some paired video too.
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post #1280 of 1579 Old 04-08-2012, 09:34 AM
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Thanks.
I also don't know the reason, why we have problems with MVC on the timeline. We tested 3 different PC now, each with i5 or i7 cpu, 8-16GB ram, win7 64bit, legal Vegas11 Pro, and neither can render the 1 hour long 3D film to Sony MVC (1920 at 23,97fps). One PC was just builded few days ago. Just can't be that all computers suffers from hardware error.
And the most interesting thing, that rendering bring bad frames here and there. Sometimes cpu usage drop to 0%, etc. But not always exactly the same place. We cannot think anything else than a software error, but don't understand why nobody else have such issue? Maybe they don't edit 1 hour long project, and render to MVC codec?
We render the timeline to lagarith lossless avi left and right only, bring those files to a new timeline, pair to 3D, and voila: mvc rendering is flawless.
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post #1281 of 1579 Old 04-08-2012, 09:53 PM
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hi all. new to avs forums.

not sure if this has been asked before. however does anyone know if there is a timelapse mode on the HDR-TD10?

thanks!
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post #1282 of 1579 Old 04-08-2012, 11:35 PM
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No, only with JVC TD1, or gopro or some canon cameras.
But you can record a few hours easily with TD10, and speed up later.
Much better method than with DV tape, like i did it in 2004-2008
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post #1283 of 1579 Old 04-18-2012, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

It's all relative, Tony. Broadcast level equipment is all expensive. It's relative because you can charge for that in the industry. BUT, you do have to know how to get the shots the client wants and they are ever so picky on the most minor details.
The one complaint I always had with Joe's end of the business is the academics concentrated way too much on perfection and excellence at any cost and failed all too often in educating the videography student how to match the project goal with budgets.

I agree the TD-10 has room for improvements. As I sit here adding a 77mm threaded ring to my second TD-10 to add UV filtering, this is foremost on my mind. I would also like to have additional manual control in the 3D mode. Frank and I both want the composite video out not to be disabled when connecting LANC. I want a cross hairs and grid in the 3D mode on the shooting screen. Ability to keep the camera on when the screen is closed. I miss not having a small eye viewfinder for shooting in bright sun and not needing the Hoodman 450. Sony to make a rectangular lens shade detachable that does not show in full wide 3D. I now have two TD-10's so I don't expect to be buying any more so unfortunately these ideas won't benefit me.

Hello. I could use a little help and I am at a loss on how you install UV filters on the HDR-TD10. I just received the camera today and any help would really be appreciated.
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post #1284 of 1579 Old 04-18-2012, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viperdriver5150 View Post

Hello. I could use a little help and I am at a loss on how you install UV filters on the HDR-TD10. I just received the camera today and any help would really be appreciated.

I believe Don has described his device in prior posts, but if you are not a do-it-your-selfer, I have seen a ready-made device promoted by a small company that also offers a mirror set-up that allows for a greater separation between the lenses for long distance 3D shots. Both of these add-ons for the TD10 are several hundred dollars apiece so I would be curious to learn if Don's solution is more economical.
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post #1285 of 1579 Old 04-19-2012, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthTV View Post


I believe Don has described his device in prior posts, but if you are not a do-it-your-selfer, I have seen a ready-made device promoted by a small company that also offers a mirror set-up that allows for a greater separation between the lenses for long distance 3D shots. Both of these add-ons for the TD10 are several hundred dollars apiece so I would be curious to learn if Don's solution is more economical.

Yes, considerably!

If you see a sale on the filters, it's the best way to buy them. The mount on the TD 10 is really simple. Buy two UV filters. The first one you remove the glass and discard it. Then you mount the threaded ring to the camera with an instant bonding glue from SuperGlue. Radio Shack sells it. You will also need to fit a thin piece of black plastic on the top back to shield light from hitting the back of the filter which can cause glare. The second filter you bought is used as is. The size that will rest on the face of the TD10 is 77mm. I found sale prices on UV filters for as low as $1.99 ea. on Amazon. My filter mount is fairly simple while the one available from Cyclopital3D has a mount from the bottom threaded hole. Mine is semi permanent modification while the one from cyclopital3D is temporary. If your the type that considers maintaining your equipment in virgin condition then you don't want to use what I did. If you don't mind big bulky temporary accessory for several hundred dollars then go with the cyclopital3D.

FYI - in my last flight, TSA dropped my TD10 on the inspection table and dented the 77 mm ring making it unusable. I had one spare UV filter in my filter set so I removed the glass, went to Radio Shack and bought some super glue and fitted a new ring to the camera in the hotel room. It's that easy!
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post #1286 of 1579 Old 04-19-2012, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

FYI - in my last flight, TSA dropped my TD10 on the inspection table and dented the 77 mm ring making it unusable.

Ouch! I took my new JVC HMQ10 (4K camera) to NAB this week. I keep it in my backpack. On the way out, TSA scaned my backpack twice, but stoped short of a visual inspection. On the way home, I offered to take the camera out, but that TSA crew said just leave it in the bag. Maybe it helped that I had told them in advance that there was a camcorder in the backpack.

This summer, when I go to Hawaii, I'll need to get my laptop, two portable hard drives, my Panasonic Z10000, JVC GY-HMQ10, Fuji 3DW3, Sanyo VPC-102, and possibly my Canon EOS 350D through security. I'm not looking forward to that part of the trip.
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post #1287 of 1579 Old 04-19-2012, 08:14 PM
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If the camcorder uses tape, the rules say the camcorder needs to be placed in a tray, just like a laptop. If hard drive or memory card camcorder you can leave it in the camera bag. I also suffered another loss unrelated to the TD10 damage. In viewing online whether others have suffered and it seems the number of claims being filed it os a quite common event and practice for TSA to steal and damage your stuff. For both damage and TAS agent theft is horrendous. Cash jewelry, cameras and iPads are the most common losses being filed. Says also it takes an average of 6 months for the claim to be reviewed. I will b filing a claim when I get home.
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post #1288 of 1579 Old 04-19-2012, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

If the camcorder uses tape, the rules say the camcorder needs to be placed in a tray, just like a laptop. If hard drive or memory card camcorder you can leave it in the camera bag. I also suffered another loss unrelated to the TD10 damage. In viewing online whether others have suffered and it seems the number of claims being filed it os a quite common event and practice for TSA to steal and damage your stuff. For both damage and TAS agent theft is horrendous. Cash jewelry, cameras and iPads are the most common losses being filed. Says also it takes an average of 6 months for the claim to be reviewed. I will b filing a claim when I get home.

Sorry to hear that. Several years ago I had an electronic game wrapped for Christmas in my checked in luggage. it mysteriously disappeared somewhere between Alaska and Hawaii. At least I consoled myself that some TSA agent's little kid might be having a happier Christmas.
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post #1289 of 1579 Old 05-01-2012, 01:25 PM
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Hello Hibijibis,

Good afternoon! My name is Amanda Maffei and I work for the SonyListens department. I wasn't able to find that question in our Esupport website, so I would recommend calling: Priority Service: 239-768-7547 Hours:

Mon-Fri 8:00am-12:00am (Midnight) ET
Sat-Sun 9:00am-8:00pm ET

Regarding to your questing with the timelapse mode. I hope this helps! Thank you! =)

-Amanda Maffei
SonyListens team
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post #1290 of 1579 Old 05-04-2012, 10:02 AM
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Intersting that several Best Buy stores still have last HDR-TD10 units on sale for $599.
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