Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 46 - AVS Forum
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post #1351 of 1579 Old 05-15-2012, 05:53 PM
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Don,

My friend ended up getting 2 TD10s from a local Best Buy. He has a couple of 55" LG passive displays in his media program, but he wants something smaller for home - something 32" or so. I can't recall the size and make of the passive display you use. Is it a Vizio?

BTW, he called me twice today to rave over the TD10. He used it to shoot a special program at the school, and he was extremely excited with the results. He's actually been doing 3D longer than I have, but it was anaglyph and mostly SD, so he's psyched to be able to shoot 1080/full color 3D. I wouldn't be surprised to see him around here before long.

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post #1352 of 1579 Old 05-15-2012, 08:34 PM
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Yes. It's a 32" Vizio. I really like it for my edit workstation as my 2nd monitor. I don't like the nag screens and that I have to constantly put it back to 3D all the time. When it believes I need a break from 3D it switches to 2D. But other than that it is a feature loaded tool and was under $500 at Walmart.


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post #1353 of 1579 Old 05-15-2012, 09:24 PM
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Thanks, Don. I'll let my friend know.

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post #1354 of 1579 Old 05-16-2012, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Yes. It's a 32" Vizio. I really like it for my edit workstation as my 2nd monitor. I don't like the nag screens and that I have to constantly put it back to 3D all the time. When it believes I need a break from 3D it switches to 2D. But other than that it is a feature loaded tool and was under $500 at Walmart.

This is the exact same 3DTV I use as my office computer monitor.
I watch a lot of 3D on it and monitor Vegas edits with it and I have never, ever used the 3D mode.
I just output everything in line interleaved mode and it works perfectly every time.

P.S. In case you're interested, I shot this short video of the Chevy Volt I bought my wife for her birthday. Since she's in Germany I get to drive it.
Chevy Volt in 3D

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post #1355 of 1579 Old 05-16-2012, 09:15 AM
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Off Topic-
Pretty nice, Frank. Does the Volt use gasoline as a backup?

I did some math based on your test run and your Volt costs about 1/3 to run as my Camry Hybrid, but I had to use numbers for 35mph - 40 mph which is what it looked like you were driving. Our electric is 13.5 cents per KWH and gas is about 3.55 here. Do you know what the kwh per mile is for 65mph interstate? At 70 mph I do about 40mpg average and at 35 it is around 50 mpg but usually 35 means start and stop around town so we only average 33mpg around town.


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post #1356 of 1579 Old 05-16-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Off Topic-
Pretty nice, Frank. Does the Volt use gasoline as a backup?

I did some math based on your test run and your Volt costs about 1/3 to run as my Camry Hybrid, but I had to use numbers for 35mph - 40 mph which is what it looked like you were driving. Our electric is 13.5 cents per KWH and gas is about 3.55 here. Do you know what the kwh per mile is for 65mph interstate? At 70 mph I do about 40mpg average and at 35 it is around 50 mpg but usually 35 means start and stop around town so we only average 33mpg around town.

It has a gasoline engine but I've never heard it run in the time I've been driving it.
It has about a 9 gallon tank I believe.
It seems to get around 4.5 miles per KWH at highway speed and about 5.0 average in stop and go around town.
The worst equivalent MPG I've calculated for it so far is 155 miles per gallon and at least 200 MPG around town.
This is if I charge it during the day when I pay closer to 10 cents/KWH vs 7 cents overnight.

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post #1357 of 1579 Old 05-16-2012, 11:34 PM
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Well since we are off topic anyway - that Volt, and even the Hybrid Camry, sure look nice at the gas pump this week. Here on the West Coast $4.50 per gallon gasoline is already here - it jumped 4 cents overnight from just yesterday to today. (A couple of refineries in California are down for maintenance and one in Washington is still out from a previous fire - so it is all supply and demand as the barrel price for crude oil has actually dropped at the same time that gasoline prices have risen here out West.)
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post #1358 of 1579 Old 05-17-2012, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthTV View Post

Well since we are off topic anyway - that Volt, and even the Hybrid Camry, sure look nice at the gas pump this week. Here on the West Coast $4.50 per gallon gasoline is already here - it jumped 4 cents overnight from just yesterday to today. (A couple of refineries in California are down for maintenance and one in Washington is still out from a previous fire - so it is all supply and demand as the barrel price for crude oil has actually dropped at the same time that gasoline prices have risen here out West.)

Gas in Florida has dropped for the past two weeks. Now below $3.50 I'm in Tampa today and I saw it was 3.48. US demand has fallen for the past 3 years as we keep finding new reserves. You are correct that the new problem now is refinery capacity.

I was planning on shooting some generic video of sunsets at Clearwater Beach here but the weather sucks. I brought my 1 meter stereo base bench for the sunset shot. I'm here with my wife who is at a Wells Fargo internal meeting for two days. Saturday, I plan to go to Hollywood Studios At Disney. I heard the Star Wars convention is there. Hopefully I'll find some opportunity to shoot something then. With the weather so bad, I think I'll go to see the Avengers3D this afternoon. Will check out the horizon again after the movie but I think the T storms will not cooperate. Wife will be in meetings until 10PM, so maybe another movie in the evening.


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post #1359 of 1579 Old 05-17-2012, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthTV View Post

Well since we are off topic anyway - that Volt, and even the Hybrid Camry, sure look nice at the gas pump this week. Here on the West Coast $4.50 per gallon gasoline is already here - it jumped 4 cents overnight from just yesterday to today. (A couple of refineries in California are down for maintenance and one in Washington is still out from a previous fire - so it is all supply and demand as the barrel price for crude oil has actually dropped at the same time that gasoline prices have risen here out West.)

Hybrids still use gas and have extra mechanical/electrical crap to fail. Rather than tolerate the crappy performance of a hybrid, we have a '03 jetta tdi wagon 5sp. I put larger Bosio injectors, different ecu tuning, vr6 clutch, it has enough power to spin the tires in 2nd gear, torque that pushes you back in your seat yet still can get 55mph. Just the other day, wife went 837 miles on one tank! I could go from San Francisco to Miami and have to stop maybe 3x for fuel, maybe just twice.
Thread relevent- I show some video in the jetta today while wife drove, wanted to see how well it does with fast action stuff like the side of the road as we traveled.
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post #1360 of 1579 Old 05-17-2012, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dclark View Post

Hybrids still use gas and have extra mechanical/electrical crap to fail. Rather than tolerate the crappy performance of a hybrid, we have a '03 jetta tdi wagon 5sp. I put larger Bosio injectors, different ecu tuning, vr6 clutch, it has enough power to spin the tires in 2nd gear, torque that pushes you back in your seat yet still can get 55mph. Just the other day, wife went 837 miles on one tank! I could go from San Francisco to Miami and have to stop maybe 3x for fuel, maybe just twice.
Thread relevent- I show some video in the jetta today while wife drove, wanted to see how well it does with fast action stuff like the side of the road as we traveled.

Too bad diesel isn't 6 cents a gallon like it was when I was pumping gas as a kid.

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post #1361 of 1579 Old 05-17-2012, 03:32 PM
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Looks like I might get lucky. Clearwater Beach has clear sky's as far as I can see.


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post #1362 of 1579 Old 05-24-2012, 04:33 AM
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I bought a TD10 this week. Soon I will send the links of my Youtube videos in 3D.

Thank you!
Milton

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post #1363 of 1579 Old 05-25-2012, 01:28 AM
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RE: Good quality multi-LED light for TD10.


I see several have recommended using a good or high quality multi LED light for the TD10. BB has two economical models available but the review suggest they are only good for 5-10 feet distance. On the other hand the company named after a South American River has a similar priced unit which looks like it will give twice the light but is a no name brand and probably does not have a dimmer feature. (LED Digital Video Light of 28 LEDs 6500k and made for the Sony Hdr-ax2000.) What are you using with your HD10 for LED video lighting and are you happy with it? I would like to find a unit that could reach out at least 15-20 feet and have a dimmer feature.
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post #1364 of 1579 Old 05-25-2012, 08:08 AM
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I actually have three lights to optimize size/weight vs. power.

The big boy for the TD10 is the Neewer CN-160 which has 160 LED lights, dimmer, and uses multiple power sources.

The one I carry most of the time is the Lumi Bank 48 LED rechargeable with dimmer.
I bought this at NAB booth on impulse.

The little TD20 hot shoe powered Sony light HVL-HL1 is pretty useless for everything critical but it can do in a pinch. If I feel I may need something the last minute to get a shot where otherwise I couldn't shoot this will be a good backup in my pocket. This is an example where I had to resort to this because the lighting was way too dark to shoot anything in this room, glad I had the HL1 in my pocket. The main problem with this little light is the camera body casts a shadow as the light mounts too far back to get full frame lighting. If you are aware of this you can work around it to a degree. Not ideal but otherwise I would not have had the shot.

After that experience, I decided to add a cold mounting shoe near the front of my camera that works well for both lighting and mounting a professional shotgun mic too.
LL


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post #1365 of 1579 Old 05-30-2012, 08:25 AM
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Soon even today, so I end up uploading to Youtube, I'll post two links to two videos I did with the TD10 and edited with Vegas 11.

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post #1366 of 1579 Old 05-30-2012, 07:53 PM
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As I had promised this is my second video done in 3D with the TD10 camcorder and edited with Sony Vegas Pro 11, available on Youtube:
http://youtu.be/1YUDwpg_J4g

If you want to download this video in Blu-ray 3D MVC (ISO file) without compression of Youtube, follow the links:
http://netload.in/dateiUntPs2w7jL/Ja....part1.rar.htm
http://netload.in/dateiA3QEchkshF/Ja....part2.rar.htm
http://netload.in/dateiWcM8sUaF4g/Ja....part3.rar.htm
http://netload.in/dateilgUepdPK41/Ja....part4.rar.htm

Thanks
Milton

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post #1367 of 1579 Old 05-30-2012, 09:35 PM
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Very nice work there, Milton. What slide table or dolly rig did you use on some of those shots?


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post #1368 of 1579 Old 05-31-2012, 12:41 AM
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I think it is a nice video - well done.

Just one technical comment and I hope you allow me to say that: the TD10 has a convergence contro - but that is a difficult point also with the fixed IO. If you shoot with convergence and adjust then the footage in Vegas, that everything is behind the zero window, this is one possible way to handle convergence. But there is the danger that the total disparity becomes too high in the final video. Here in this case I see something about 4.2% disparity, of the width of the monitor. There is a rule that it should not go beyond 2.5 or 3 or maybe 3.5% in the final video. The lower the better, since that means less stress for the audience, and reduces the danger of ghosting. Even if we have to be aware that this limit is not a hardfact limit, it depends from the perception of different people where they feel that it becomes stress to them. But it is just another expression of the 70-minute rule.

With the TD10, you have two possibilities to improve that to bring the disparity down: either you adjust the convergence to a middle point or - in extreme - the the farpoint. Especially if the depth bracket is as high as it is here. If you do then the horizontal adjustment in Vegas, total dispartiy should be lower.

The other possibility, especially if the depth bracket is large as it is here, would be to shoot with the TD10 with parallel axis - for the TD10 you can do that when you adjust the convergence to "+oo". For sure you have to make the horizontal adjustment in Vegas then because everything would be in front of the zero window, but with parallel shooting you can up with much smaller disparities even if this method has the disadvantage that you have to crop your footage more compared with the first method.

But as said, that is a technical aspect. I like the video and think it is well done. I know from own - painfull - experiences with my TD10, that the control of the disparity is an intesting learning point also for compact cameras like the TD10 or the Z10K.

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post #1369 of 1579 Old 05-31-2012, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Very nice work there, Milton. What slide table or dolly rig did you use on some of those shots?

Don, the slider is Konova Slider (http://www.konovaphoto.com/).

Thanks,
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post #1370 of 1579 Old 05-31-2012, 06:13 AM
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I really appreciate it when people post their videos of interesting subjects and that show skill, like here.

But, let me start by saying that I tend to dislike videos that are essentially a series of static shots - like a slide show. Here, there is no action except for moving water and slighly moving plants in the wind. And the moving (slider) camera gets tiresome - moving the camera the same way shot after shot does not make the video more interesting or make up for a lack of really anything going on. But that's me. On to 3D issues, associated both with the camera and the technique.

This is typical of a first attempt at 3D from someone who is obviously skilled at video in 2D - the shots are well-composed and exposed, but:

1. The vista shots have a convergence problem for distant objects, and hardly have any interesting 3D. These type of shots are to be avoided with small-io 3D cameras like the TD10. There is nothing that gives a strong sense of depth in these shots. As brief set-up shots (for some interesting action up close) they are useful, but not as main subjects for 3D, unless much wider io is employed or some closer-up objects are included in the shots to convey depth. And even then...

2. The indoor plant shots are shot like in 2D - wth a dongle (close foliage that frames the image). That is is effective in 2D, but here the dongles are mostly violating the window (wv) and are distracting. Dongles do not work in 3D unless a lot of care is taken. Many of the subject plant leaves also cause wv - stick out of the frame and cut off. And there are no attempts to play with 3D, to purposely get a feeling of depth by emphasizing different layers.

3. The indoor shots show how in dimmer light the TD10 lacks color saturation. Green is a real weakness of the TD10. I do not have a remedy for this. But green plant pictures are not the forte of this camera.

4. The length of each individual shot is about right - in 3D one needs a little more time. But the moving camera makes it more difficult for the viewer to exploit the 3D by looking around the frame. Again, sliders are effective in 2D but are less desirable in 3D, though a moving camera can be effective used sparingly.
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post #1371 of 1579 Old 05-31-2012, 07:27 AM
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Thanks, Milton. I liked the look you did with the slider. You may have read in the other thread about my use of the igus system for my wide stereo base rig. This is essentially a slider system that I doubled up to make a good rig for ultra stereobase shooting. I haven't tried the slider assembly yet but your video inspires me to try some 3D experiments with a single TD10. Thanks for the inspiration.

BTW- I saw the Konova rig at NAB. Its a nice system but a bit too much for me to carry around on my travels. The igus slider is much more compact so I will give it a try next time.


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post #1372 of 1579 Old 06-02-2012, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powerplay4 View Post

As I had promised this is my second video done in 3D with the TD10 camcorder and edited with Sony Vegas Pro 11, available on Youtube:
http://youtu.be/1YUDwpg_J4g

Hi Powerplay4,
a pleasant and relaxing video to watch. Thank you for uploading it.
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post #1373 of 1579 Old 06-03-2012, 09:58 AM
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New owner here of a Best Buy blow-out HDR-TD10. I apologize in advance for violating accepted forum etiquette by not searching out each individual answer (I've made it through about 15 of the 45+ pages on this thread). But as a newbie, I though it might be useful to collect all the testing and research done to this point by the experts on this thread into one post so that I and others might get the most out of owning this camera. I recently went to my local big-box store and did a simple plug-and-play (3D video mode, HDMI) test into a couple 3d TV's on display. In a Sharp I saw a disappointing amount of ghosting (for an active shutter glass system), but good 3D; on one LG (passive glasses) I saw no ghosting , but a noticeable problem rendering correct depth on parts of the display (same for the in-store demo video); I went to another LG and the depth rendered correctly, picture was great, some motion lines. I don't currently own a 3D-capable display. Some of the topics previously discussed here (and which would be great for someone to summarize):

Are we seeing the full resolution when displaying 3D video directly from the TD10 via the HDMI-out port into the TV, and if not, is it significant?

Are you losing any data by not using PMB 1st to download the raw video onto your computer before using a video editor (again, is it significant)?

Are there any new software/editing options that make it easier to get TD10 video converted for Blu-Ray disc burning at a resolution and frame rate and time investment that makes it worthwhile. (i.e., is it still for experts only?)

Are there any particular 3D TV specs I should look for to maximize the quality of TD10 output with minimal editing?

What is the easiest display method- using a computer hooked to the TV thru a video editor?; burn a DVD/Blu-Ray?; a mass media storage device that the TV recognizes?; HDMI-out from the camera? (apologies for the general nature of all these questions).
Comments (or not) on one or all of these topics appreciated.

Phil
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post #1374 of 1579 Old 06-03-2012, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

In a Sharp I saw a disappointing amount of ghosting (for an active shutter glass system), but good 3D; on one LG (passive glasses) I saw no ghosting , but a noticeable problem rendering correct depth on parts of the display (same for the in-store demo video); I went to another LG and the depth rendered correctly, picture was great, some motion lines.

Ghosting derives from a not perfect separation of the Sharp or LG. Both, active and passive systems, are sensible for ghosting (at least I have seen on both systems more or less significant ghosting). The comparison of the Sharp and the LG for ghosting would be valid only, if it has been the same footage that you have seen. Without that I would not trust that.

The point is more, that the combination of high disparity AND high contrast makes the likelyhood for ghosting significant higher. You can influence contrast a little bit (not with your TD10 but in the postpro, or with high-sofisticated units like the Z10K by choosing another gamma curve). But what you can influence to avoid ghosting is the disparity you have in your videos. That is the major reason why I am a absolut fan of low disparities in our products (as good as possible).


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Are we seeing the full resolution when displaying 3D video directly from the TD10 via the HDMI-out port into the TV, and if not, is it significant?

Yes, if you playback 3D footage from your TD10 via HDMI-out you will have 1080 60i if the HDTV is able to display that. Be aware that there are a lot of settings in your TD10 where you can adjust the output - for example to 1080 60i or 1080 60p or to lower resolution also. A lot of people like that, since here you are able to playback the native resolution where the camera shoots in.

My opinion is still, that there is not such a huge difference between 1080 50i and 720 50p (I shoot in PAL).


Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

Are you losing any data by not using PMB 1st to download the raw video onto your computer before using a video editor (again, is it significant)?

No, since the PMB copies the footage only. Also, if you use Vegas or Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum, you will not loose quality when coping the footage to the harddisc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

Are there any new software/editing options that make it easier to get TD10 video converted for Blu-Ray disc burning at a resolution and frame rate and time investment that makes it worthwhile. (i.e., is it still for experts only?)

The issue is the 3D Blu-ray specification, that allows 720 50p, 720 60p and 1080 24p only. So since you come from a footage with 1080 60i, you always may need a conversion. At least for 3D Blu-ray. So a new software will not help really.

What is possible is that you use the PMB to create a BDAV structure on a Blu-ray. The newer Blu-ray player are able to playback the footage then with 1080 60i, some play that back as 720p only, and some do not playback that at all. I do not know any other software yet, that is able to create such a BDAV-structure for 3D.


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Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

Are there any particular 3D TV specs I should look for to maximize the quality of TD10 output with minimal editing?

If you wish to edit the footage, you have to use a software that has an MVC-encoder - to be able to create a Blu-ray. If that is minimum editing may depend on your definition. Minimum editing can be done also with the PMB - in terms of trimming clips and make cut-points. But no color correction, no level correction, no adjustment of the geometrics (but that is not often requiered for the TD10).


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Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

What is the easiest display method- using a computer hooked to the TV thru a video editor?; burn a DVD/Blu-Ray?; a mass media storage device that the TV recognizes?; HDMI-out from the camera? (apologies for the general nature of all these questions).
Comments (or not) on one or all of these topics appreciated.

To my opinion to burn a 3D Blu-ray accoding to the actual standards as defined by the Blu-ray consortia. And to playback that with a standard 3D Blu-ray player - or with a harddisk player like the Prodigy 3D or the iconbit.

But there is no general answer to that - this will depend on your wishes and needs. There is also some editing possibility in the TD10 itself - but be aware that edited footage in the TD10 cannot be edited again in Vegas (you loose 3D here, for whatever reason).

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
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post #1375 of 1579 Old 06-04-2012, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3dPCH View Post

Are you losing any data by not using PMB 1st to download the raw video onto your computer before using a video editor (again, is it significant)?

No, since the PMB copies the footage only. Also, if you use Vegas or Vegas Moviestudio HD Platinum, you will not loose quality when coping the footage to the harddisc.

There is a technicality here. If a single video is longer than ~2GB in size, the camera breaks the recording into multiple files (<2GB each). However, the breaks are not clean and if you import these multi-part files into a video editor (e.g. Vegas), the joins won't be clean.
When PMB imports video from the camera, it joins multi-part videos together correctly, creating files >2GB (if you shot video segments that long).
So... If you shoot segments longer than ~20mins (from memory), make sure you use PMB to download the camera. It is probably just safer to download using PMB for all your videos.
It cost me a lot of time and frustration trying to solve this problem.
Don gained great pleasure in pointing out I should have RTFM. ;-)
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post #1376 of 1579 Old 06-04-2012, 01:17 AM
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Don and I use the Vegas tool, called "decive explorer", for that problem. Is the better choise IF you wish to edit in Vegas anyway.

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post #1377 of 1579 Old 06-04-2012, 05:41 AM
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With a TD10 there are two and only two easy to use methods that I prefer.
1. I use PMB that is built for the TD10 when I have hundreds of clips to move to my hard drive. Using PMB is simple, almost automatic, and I have a quick review of thumbnails and easy to understand file names to screen during the process. Why anyone would use windows explorer to do this transfer is beyond me but I recognize some people think that these video clips are just ordinary computer files and can be treated as such.
2. If I have just a couple of clips to move from the camcorder WHILE I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF AN EDIT PROJECT, AND MY TD10 IS ALREADY CONNECTED, I use the Device Explorer in Vegas Pro to get the clip or two.

There are a couple of other products that also work, including an upgrade to PMB you can download. One was designed by the Play Station 3 division. I have not tried this because I see no reason to fix what isn't broke from the two methods above. If you are using a PS3 in your process it may be to your advantage to use that. But be careful if using any product that is not specifically recommended by Sony for the TD10, including earlier versions of PMB as you will be entering into unknown hidden problems that could create trouble for your editing, rendering and playback of burned BD.


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post #1378 of 1579 Old 06-04-2012, 10:03 AM
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I too am a new owner of the Sony TD10, Best-Buy closeout....
I'm pleased with it so far.

From what I can find, there appears to be two consumer 3D editing products:
Sony's Vegas and PowerDirector.

Would anyone on this forum recommend one over the other?

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post #1379 of 1579 Old 06-04-2012, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwcole1224 View Post

I too am a new owner of the Sony TD10, Best-Buy closeout....
I'm pleased with it so far.

From what I can find, there appears to be two consumer 3D editing products:
Sony's Vegas and PowerDirector.

Would anyone on this forum recommend one over the other?

They're really two different products. Vegas Pro is a much more powerful editor with tons of pro features. PowerDirector is a consumer editor that easier to use. If all you want to do is minimal editing (trim clips, add dissolves, throw in some background music and sound FX), PowerDirector is great. It even lets you add menus. Vegas gives you a lot of control over every aspect of the production, and the output can look better, but the learning curve is steeper and it costs quite a bit more. It also does not allow you to create menus.

If you're serious about editing, you'll outgrow PowerDirector, but it's a good place to start.

Joe Clark

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post #1380 of 1579 Old 06-04-2012, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

They're really two different products. Vegas Pro is a much more powerful editor with tons of pro features. PowerDirector is a consumer editor that easier to use. If all you want to do is minimal editing (trim clips, add dissolves, throw in some background music and sound FX), PowerDirector is great. It even lets you add menus. Vegas gives you a lot of control over every aspect of the production, and the output can look better, but the learning curve is steeper and it costs quite a bit more. It also does not allow you to create menus.

If you're serious about editing, you'll outgrow PowerDirector, but it's a good place to start.

Joe,

At least to start, it sounds like PowerDirector may work for me.
Since you didn't mention the consumer version of Vegas, I assume that wouldn't be the best choice.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
Jerry

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