Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 53 - AVS Forum
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post #1561 of 1579 Old 01-22-2014, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post


But that is not possible with the TD10. Sure, it also has a clear hdmi output - BUT it is not possible to set the HDMI-out to side-by-side for a 2D unit really. That seems to work for a 3D-HDTV only!! Borring. mad.gif

Hi Wolfgang,
I don't know what you intend to do with side by side on a 2d screen but you know it is possible to just switch it to 2D with the switch on t:phe back? That shows the leftonly single eye on a 2D and 3D screen.

regards,
René van Gageldonk
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post #1562 of 1579 Old 01-22-2014, 03:33 AM
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The idea is quite simple and not very new: you can use a Ninja2 with a 3D camera to capture s3D footage as side-by-side half. The Ninja2 is a 2D unit - so to record the sbs-half footage it is necessary to set the camera to sbs-half. The reason why you may with to do so is because the Ninja2 offers professional codecs like ProRes 422 or DNxHD - and that you may end up with a better quality even with side-by-side half compared to the MVC footage.

As said, that works for the Z10000 - but not for the TD10.

Sure, you can set the TD10 to 2D as you suggest - but then you will have 2D only, but not sbs-half.

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post #1563 of 1579 Old 01-22-2014, 04:16 AM
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I see. Sounds good Wolfgang.
I guess the side by side setting in the menu> HDMI 3d setting is full sbs and will not work?
thanks for pointing to ninja2. new to me.

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René van Gageldonk
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post #1564 of 1579 Old 01-22-2014, 05:10 AM
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We are talking about the TD10... side-by-side means here side-by-side HALF, and it seems to work on a 3D-HDTV only. At least it works with the TD10 on my active Panasonic 3D-HDTV - but here I do not need it at all. Here side-by-side half is a loss in resolution only.

But if you record the signal of a camera like the Z10K to the Atomos using a professional format, the result can be better.

By the way, Atomos is running a cash-back promotion until end of this month. That is why I have purchased one unit - I think it has become really afordable.

http://www.atomos.com/

The good point is that is improves the value of my Z10000 - maybe also the value of the TD10 (but only in 2D).

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post #1565 of 1579 Old 02-01-2014, 03:32 AM
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3 of my videos captured with TD10 will be shown on The SD&A conference: Stereoscopic Displays and Applications Conference on 3 t/m 5 februari 2014 in San Francisco. http://www.stereoscopic.org/3dcinema . I'm showing my videos on the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam.
Anyone of you planning to go to the conference? I'm curious how it looks on the big screen. The organisation got my footage in 2 seperate HD files and they show it with polarized glasses.
Please let me know if you happen to go and have seen the presentation.
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post #1566 of 1579 Old 02-12-2014, 03:01 AM
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I deinterlace my TD10 video with QTGMC which also is able to simulate shutter blur. Looking at the meta data on my video I read the shutter speed for each frame. It varies from 1/450 sec to 1/50 sec so the shutter angle varies from 40 to 360 degrees. I often find the deinterlaced video flickery and so I want to add some shutter blur to the video when the shutter speed drops below 1/100 sec. At the moment the only way I see of doing this is splitting the video into lots of small clips and apply the blur and the recombing the clips. Is there any software which will apply blur depending on shutter speed. The reason for deinterlacing is that I need this for authoring blu-ray discs. I could of course just add some blur and put up with the high blur when the sutter speed is at 1/50 sec. I wondered what other have found with shutter blur.
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post #1567 of 1579 Old 02-13-2014, 12:34 AM
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Puhh, terrible lot of work. Cannot remember that I have seen something like a shutter blur.... so that has not been an issue for me up to now.

Do not know if you shoot with a PAL or NTSC version. But for both it should be possible to render to 720 50p(PAL) or 720 60p(NTSC) where this kind of issue should not take place at all. Both 720 50p/60p are fine for 3D-BD too.

If you wish to render to 1080 24p then you have the issue that this cannot be done from 1080 60i (NTSC) versions of the cameras in a really great way. There are user that find that good enough today, but for 1080 50i I still do not like that. For PAL another way would be to slow down the footage from 50i to 24p what works great.

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post #1568 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 03:13 AM
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Hi there,

 

Since I am new in the 3D arena (in fact, my HDR-TD20VE is still in Germany and on its way to the Netherlands), I am lacking behind somewhat. I struggled through quite some discussions here. Correct me if I am wrong, but ultimately my findings are:

1. There aren't too many options on getting a decent 3D consumer camcorder.

2. It boils down to: HDR-TD10, 20 and 30 and the Panasonic Z10k.

3. The latter has the biggest spacing between the lenses (40 mm) hence the furthest distance at wich it can still produce a good 3D effect.

4. The price for that is twofold: even secondhand running at € 2000,- ($ 2750,-) and it is really big and heavy (not likely to be taken on the motorcycle holiday).

5. The small distance between the lenses of the HDR-TD10 can be enlarged by means of a Cycloptical Stereo Base Extender. Footage available on YouTube demonstrating the differences.

6. With the higher pixel amount (better stills) than the TD10, the built in 64 GB, the better battery (NP-FV70 iso FV50 that comes with the TD30) and the manual control wheel, TD20 is the best Sony option.

 

7. Now I need a Cycloptical SBE that fits the TD20VE (and thus will fit the TD30VE as well). That way I can make long shots (Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Sedona, Yoshua Tree park), as well as living room shots and not carry around a chunky device. Hopefully such a SBE device will become available soon.

 

8. With a SBE the TD20VE is the best portable option available now. A new Sony HDR-TD40VE device that would capture 1080 50p (EUR) or 1080 60p (USA) with lenses set at 60 mm apart would obviously be the ultimate device. But as long as that thing is not on the market, a TD20VE with a SBE is the best of both worlds: portability and 3D range.

 

What's wrong with my findings??

 

Greetz,

 

NewBee Jeroen

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post #1569 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 04:24 AM
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TD20 and TD30 are great cameras. As long as you have something in the foreground and mid distance, distant subjects still look 3d. Even getting a high perspective and including some ground footage can help. I find some footage with base extenders hard to watch esp. On a projection screen. I've not yet tried the sterioscopic filter on movie studio 13 yet but this may let you increase the apparent depth and correct errors.
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post #1570 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 06:02 AM
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Hi Guitarman512,

 

Thanks for the feedback. On YouTube I watched a comparison of shots taken with a TD10 with and without the Stereo Base Extender, I watched them using my Full HD 3D Optoma beamer. The thing with the Cyclopital SBE is that, once installed on the TD10, it cropped the image, making it unpretty to look at. To prevent this crop effect, the camera required zooming, thus changing the shot. To get a similar shot (in order to make a good comparison), the guy that did this footage had to walk back for 50 (!) meters. That shot did look similar as to what was within the frame, but it did have a noticeable better 3D effect.

 

It will be very interesting to learn whether or not the Pinnacle Studio 16 Ultimate version I use for editing is capable of enhancing 3D effect. I have yet to find out how this program deals with the footage of my future HDR-TD20VE.

 

The tip you gave, to include objects in the foreground, thereby creating a 3D effect in the background is something I figured would work after having watched several sample shots on YouTube. I was particularly impressed by footage shot in Japan, the 3D effect did appear to extend much further beyond the 15 meters that I have found to be the agreed end of 3D by most of the forum users discussing the TD20 and 30. Either this footage has been edited and the 3D effect has been enhanced by some means, or, when this is not the case, the end limit of the 3D effect is apparently very much depending on objects in the foreground.

 

I can’t wait until I have the camera in my hands and can start experimenting!

 

 

Regards,

 

Jeroen

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post #1571 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 06:37 AM
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Bergj69-

Welcome to 3D !

If you're a veteran shooter in 2D you will find new challenges in the real world of 3 dimensions.

Both the TD10 and 20 are excellent starter choices for 3D introduction. The 30 was Sony's last offering in 3D consumer camcorders. It basically is a cut down version of the 20 lacking internal memory and being constructed with all recycled materials. The later of no importance to us here. There was a major reduction in physical size between the 20 and the 10 but otherwise both have similar performance and features. The 20 offered slightly better CMOS imager but the visual difference was hard to see for most people.

When dealing with the interaxial spread between these small camcorders, the differences offer very little visual advantage. A few mm difference in IA doesn't matter in the "bigger picture" by my experience. Basically these small camcorders shine with excellent 3D in shooting under 30 ft and tend to produce flat backgrounds beyond 30 ft distance. guitarman is correct that you can get some stereo effect by placing an object in the foreground to maintain a 3D look when shooting greater distances but this will not increase depth or solids of the background. The only way to achieve this in larger scenery of large objects is to increase the interaxial to what is known as super interaxial distance, generally greater than 65mm. Then with really large stages such as the Grand Canyon, we move to hyper interaxial. There are formulas and calculator aps that help do the math where you enter your distance to near object, distance to far object, your lens focal length and the display screen size to determine the optimum IA. But when moving to these wide lens spacings you have to be careful not to have near objects too close. For example- with a 20 inch interaxial, the near object can't be closer than 250 feet or the images will not converge for stereo and people get headaches. But your far objects will miniaturize and maintain some stereo appearance.

To do these larger subjects such as the ones you mention, you would need to use two cameras on a bench and a way to sync them. I have such a system with two TD-10 where I put each into 2D mode and then pair the left and right files with Sony Vegas Pro. Trust me when I tell you shooting 3D is a challenge, but adding the complication of a hyper interaxial spread and syncing two greatly expands the challenges. Each shot is usually done several settings to evaluate in editing. But that is what it takes to do the bigger scenes and maintain 3D.

The main advantage of the Panasonic Z10000 is you have a professional camcorder that offers XLR audio and 3 chip imagers for better color. But it is bigger, heavier, and gets more attention and often will brand you as a professional shooter and raise obstacles in some locations that do not allow professionals to shoot while ignoring amateurs. Like at Disney World, nobody questions you with a TD10 but carry a Z10k and I've been stopped several times by park security wanting to know who I am working for.
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post #1572 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 08:38 AM
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Hi Don,

 

Thanks for your comprehensive technical explanation. I read about those rigs carrying two TD10 camera’s for the ultimate long shot 3D effect. The thing is: when on a holiday, rushing through the States in only 2 and a half week (including a stop by at my Uncle’s place in Winfield, British Colombia, yup, that is Canada…), I don’t have the time to set up such a rig. And afterwards I will not have the time to do the time consuming editing. Though I am indeed reasonably a 2D video editing veteran, I made use of the very basic Pinnacle Studio video editing software (with which I  could do the tricks I wanted) and gradually progressed through the version step ups (each step up with more options of which I used quite a number, like picture in frame, rotating frames within frames, etc).

 

Pondering about what you said about the required distance between recording lenses (20 inch….) for very long shots like the Grand Canyon…. I can’t escape the thought that viewing the result of such footage on a big screen would very likely create a more and deeper 3D effect for the viewer of that footage than the camera man had when he shot the scene and looked at it through his human eyes. Because the eyeballs of the cameraman are very likely to be not more than 6 centimetres apart. Thereby giving me the impression that in natural life we humans are limited in range over which we can see proper 3D. Using those rigs to have the two lenses spread over a much longer distance than the 6 centimetres of our eyeballs would be like shifting the 3D perception way backwards once viewed on a large screen. “Larger and deeper than real life itself!”

 

I can imagine this does horrid things with the brain when all of a sudden something in the foreground pops up while the rig is used to shoot the footage. Digging through the tons of sample 3D (SBS) material available on YouTube I witnessed such an effect when a Japanese guy approached the camera far too close, and that was a HDR-TD20VE with the lenses set very close together at only 20 mm!


So, to sum it all up, as an amateur it seems I must learn to live with the fact I will not be able to create a huge “Wow” effect when I will shoot the gorgeous scenery of the Grand Canyon since I will not be travelling with rigs and such. Sure, putting the edge of “my side” of the Canyon in the shot, possibly with a tree or family member, will be a valuable add-on compared to the same shot “only” shot in 2D. And that is where my second thought comes in to view: although the 3D range of my future TD20VE is limited, I am not paying a huge price in return. The only compromise I can come up with is that I can shoot 1080 50p when I go in 2D (using the TD20), whilst I am stuck to 1080 50i doing the same shooting in 3D. It will be interesting to see if I can notice the difference in sharpness between those two shots. As an amateur, for now I believe I would only see differences when objects start moving fast. The 50p 2D picture should show smoother movement. If I do not notice difference in sharpness and avoid fast moving objects and fast camera movement, I have the “limited” 3D effect as an extra when I shoot 3D 1080 50i.  Because, even as a 2D camera, the TD20V well out performs my previous (and now son owned) Sony HDR-XR155. If I do not see dramatic differences and can live with the fact in 3D mode I will have less manual control or scenery functions available, I am fine using the 3D capturing mode (with my son shooting 2D as a back-up with his XR155.

Using a stereoscopic tweek in editing software might just do the trick enough for me. If not, perhaps using a SBE will give me that bit more 3D on long shots. But at first I will experiment in positioning the convergence point at various places, using various zoom settings and see what that does once viewed on my 2 metre 50 centimetre screen.

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post #1573 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfgang S. View Post

The weaknesses are well known:

- the tendency to overexposure is an issue in 3D, I have the same experience. I think that the adjustment in expose can help, but since a zebra function is missing that is one of the clear weaknesses
...

As I am an utter NewBee, I noticed in the manual of my (yet to be delivered TD20) that this camera is fitted with a "Zebra" function, 70% and 100%. But I have no clue as to how to use this feature. The online guide of Sony did not make it much clearer for me. I get a hunch it has to do with exposure, but what info can this Zebra function give me and how will I know what to adjust and by how much?

 

Sorry if this is a Stupid Question....

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post #1574 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergj69 View Post

As I am an utter NewBee, I noticed in the manual of my (yet to be delivered TD20) that this camera is fitted with a "Zebra" function, 70% and 100%. But I have no clue as to how to use this feature. The online guide of Sony did not make it much clearer for me. I get a hunch it has to do with exposure, but what info can this Zebra function give me and how will I know what to adjust and by how much?

Sorry if this is a Stupid Question....

Not a stupid question. Zebra gives you a visual cue that areas of the image are overexposing. If you see the zebra stripes, that area of the image is past the 70% or 100% exposure level. It tells you that you need to reduce the aperture and/or increase the shutter speed, or that part of the image will lose detail. That is, what should be shades of gray (like details in a cloud) will be one solid bright white area.

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post #1575 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergj69 View Post

Hi Don,



 



Thanks for your comprehensive technical explanation. I read about those rigs carrying two TD10 camera’s for the ultimate long shot 3D effect. The thing is: when on a holiday, rushing through the States in only 2 and a half week (including a stop by at my Uncle’s place in Winfield, British Colombia, yup, that is Canada…), I don’t have the time to set up such a rig. And afterwards I will not have the time to do the time consuming editing. Though I am indeed reasonably a 2D video editing veteran, I made use of the very basic Pinnacle Studio video editing software (with which I  could do the tricks I wanted) and gradually progressed through the version step ups (each step up with more options of which I used quite a number, like picture in frame, rotating frames within frames, etc).



 



Pondering about what you said about the required distance between recording lenses (20 inch….) for very long shots like the Grand Canyon…. I can’t escape the thought that viewing the result of such footage on a big screen would very likely create a more and deeper 3D effect for the viewer of that footage than the camera man had when he shot the scene and looked at it through his human eyes. Because the eyeballs of the cameraman are very likely to be not more than 6 centimetres apart. Thereby giving me the impression that in natural life we humans are limited in range over which we can see proper 3D. Using those rigs to have the two lenses spread over a much longer distance than the 6 centimetres of our eyeballs would be like shifting the 3D perception way backwards once viewed on a large screen. “Larger and deeper than real life itself!”



 



I can imagine this does horrid things with the brain when all of a sudden something in the foreground pops up while the rig is used to shoot the footage. Digging through the tons of sample 3D (SBS) material available on YouTube I witnessed such an effect when a Japanese guy approached the camera far too close, and that was a HDR-TD20VE with the lenses set very close together at only 20 mm!





So, to sum it all up, as an amateur it seems I must learn to live with the fact I will not be able to create a huge “Wow” effect when I will shoot the gorgeous scenery of the Grand Canyon since I will not be travelling with rigs and such. Sure, putting the edge of “my side” of the Canyon in the shot, possibly with a tree or family member, will be a valuable add-on compared to the same shot “only” shot in 2D. And that is where my second thought comes in to view: although the 3D range of my future TD20VE is limited, I am not paying a huge price in return. The only compromise I can come up with is that I can shoot 1080 50p when I go in 2D (using the TD20), whilst I am stuck to 1080 50i doing the same shooting in 3D. It will be interesting to see if I can notice the difference in sharpness between those two shots. As an amateur, for now I believe I would only see differences when objects start moving fast. The 50p 2D picture should show smoother movement. If I do not notice difference in sharpness and avoid fast moving objects and fast camera movement, I have the “limited” 3D effect as an extra when I shoot 3D 1080 50i.  Because, even as a 2D camera, the TD20V well out performs my previous (and now son owned) Sony HDR-XR155. If I do not see dramatic differences and can live with the fact in 3D mode I will have less manual control or scenery functions available, I am fine using the 3D capturing mode (with my son shooting 2D as a back-up with his XR155.
Using a stereoscopic tweek in editing software might just do the trick enough for me. If not, perhaps using a SBE will give me that bit more 3D on long shots. But at first I will experiment in positioning the convergence point at various places, using various zoom settings and see what that does once viewed on my 2 metre 50 centimetre screen.

As Don says, getting the most of a wider interaxial is challenging. IMO, it's definitely worth it, but the best way to find out if an SBE is going to work for you is to experiment. One thing you don't have to do is move 50 meters back from your subject. I can make the SBE for my JVC TD1 work well at distances as close as ~15' (4-5 meters), depending on the subject matter and background. One big problem is setting the convergence point, especially with subjects at, say, 15' in the foreground and way off into the distance. To make that work, you're probably going to have to be willing to put up with edge violations. If you don't, distant objects will be too divergent (especially with a larger screen), and your viewers will experience discomfort. The disparity between left and right images will exceed the 2.5-3" eye separation of the average human being.

I'm guess-timating that I use roughly 5-10% SBE shots (maybe even less) in a video I'm working on. While it's not a lot, I really like the added punch those shots give the sequences where I use them. On the long shots where I didn't have the SBE with me, things don't turn out nearly as well. You may have seen it, but if not take a look at this video I did for Cyclopital3D. The JVC TD10 and the Sony TD10 have a very similar interaxial distances, and the SBE works much the same way. It might be even more valuable for the Sony, since it has a longer zoom in 3D, but don't quote me on that. I've never shot anything with a TD10. Compare the with/without shots of the waterfall. These were taken from at least 50 meters away, and the difference is striking. The shots of the drum bridge also show how much more dramatic the SBE shot is. All these shots were done at the same distance. I had to zoom in with the SBE on the camera (same as the Sony) - roughly 1.1x normal when adjusted. I shot the SBE stuff first, then re-framed to get the same shot with the normal JVC lens.

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post #1576 of 1579 Old 04-22-2014, 03:06 PM
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Thanks for your feedback!

To be honoust: the availability of a SBE for the TD10 gave me a hard time making a final decision: both the TD10 and TD20 were available as second hand eBay objects (and only 1 item available of each). Since the TD20 has no SBE available yet, choosing the TD10 was tempting. It was a rough $65 cheaper as the TD20, but that one came with a carry bag and a class 10 16GB SD card. And the pictures of the TD20 ad also showed all accesories like cables, user guide and remote. The TD10 ad only showed the camcorder and some vague box of unknown origin. Most reviews commented the TD20 layed more comfortable in the hand than the TD10, that together with the higher resolution and the 1 millimeter bigger CMOS made me go for the TD20 whilst keeping the fingers crossed for a rapid release of a Cyclopital SBE for the TD20.

Your estimates of percentage of footage making use of the SBE will pretty much be equivalent on my estimate of average useage in my material, I agree, that 7% will have a far more "Wow" effect with a SBE. I haven't seen your footage yet, but I will certainly look at it tomorrow.
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post #1577 of 1579 Old 04-23-2014, 02:31 AM
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Still struggling on what to do. I've put out a cry for "HELP" at the TD20 thread. Since that has been inactive for a year, I decided to put a link in this thread. Please help me with deciding on what to do... at the TD20 thread
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post #1578 of 1579 Old 04-27-2014, 03:56 PM
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OK, the final verdict: get myself a TD10. Unfortunatly, I missed the eBay auction. So, should any of you want to get rid of his/her TD10: jeroen.vdberg@ziggo.nl, just let me know what you want for it!

 

Cheers!

 

Jeroen.

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post #1579 of 1579 Old 04-29-2014, 01:11 AM
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Got lucky, refurbished TD10 is on its way. Bought it at Amazon. They suggested bying a Wasabi battery set and charger. Reviews vary quite a lot,,some give this cheap option 5 stars, others only 2. Any of you TD10 users with experience with the Wasabi set? It seems too much of a bargain to be any good.... But how did it get so much positive feedback if it is junk?Wasabi
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