Sony HDR-TD10 3D-Capable Camcorder - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1579 Old 04-30-2011, 05:50 AM
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I'm tempted to order the Sony for an application that I have involving my work with wildlife.
The fact that it supports LANC is a major plus.
My main concern at the moment is getting live 3D video out for remote viewing.
I suppose it works just like the JVC in that the composite/svideo out is 2D only?
This means I have to add an adapter to convert the HDMI sbs output to composite to feed my computer.
I have one of these and the quality leaves a lot to be desired.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #182 of 1579 Old 04-30-2011, 07:28 AM
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Frank- Why don't you hold off on the Sony until others can confirm your needs. As I recall how we left LANC discussion there was no guarantee this camcorder would support what you needed. I do have the accessories to verify that but examining the current manual for the TD10 there isn't any reference I could see for these accessories. All it addresses is the location for "Analog video/audio remote control" out jack. That would be the new D shaped connection plug as opposed to the old style stereo mini cable. As for 3D on analog: I'm dead certain that there is no analog capability for this on any camcorder. Everything is HDMI 1.4 these days for 3D video. Or, in off line you can copy/transfer files from camcorder storage to the computer hard drive via the USB 2.0 connection. USB will not support real time monitoring. HDMI will be your only way to achieve 3D output live from the camcorder. How you send that back to your base of operations is where you'll need to get creative.
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post #183 of 1579 Old 04-30-2011, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Frank- Why don't you hold off on the Sony until others can confirm your needs. As I recall how we left LANC discussion there was no guarantee this camcorder would support what you needed. I do have the accessories to verify that but examining the current manual for the TD10 there isn't any reference I could see for these accessories. All it addresses is the location for "Analog video/audio remote control" out jack. That would be the new D shaped connection plug as opposed to the old style stereo mini cable. As for 3D on analog: I'm dead certain that there is no analog capability for this on any camcorder. Everything is HDMI 1.4 these days for 3D video. Or, in off line you can copy/transfer files from camcorder storage to the computer hard drive via the USB 2.0 connection. USB will not support real time monitoring. HDMI will be your only way to achieve 3D output live from the camcorder. How you send that back to your base of operations is where you'll need to get creative.

Thanks Don,
I just saw on DVINFO.net that it supports LANC.
Right now I'm getting pretty good 3D remotely using the left and right camera analog outputs and multiplexing them on the computer.
I have hope that I can find a laptop with USB 3.0 that supports the BlackMagic Design HDMI to USB3.0 capture box. With that I should be able to stream live 3D in very high quality via the current method I'm using.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #184 of 1579 Old 04-30-2011, 07:55 AM
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Holy Crap Don Frank. This cam is awesome. Geez what i shot and saw on my hx800 was unbelievable to say the least. I took shots of my wifes flowers on a porch and holy cow Very very nice. I have all the settings on auto Lol. But im sure with pratice i will get better. I do understand and see when shooting how its nice to have near mid and far imagies in the shot to create a nice 3d experince. Just wanted to let all know here. Hang tight you will not be disappointed at all. Going to shoot a hockey game tomorrow. The only time i did notice a very very lil ghosting was in weird light situation and fast in and out zoom. Other wize flawless to my eye. Even at dusk i took some same footage of the flowers in the same manner as eariler.And it still looked great.So thats my short review for now.
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post #185 of 1579 Old 04-30-2011, 09:30 AM
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there is a test in a germany magazine "videoaktiv digital"
that test the sony and the jvc 3d cam.

i just read it fast but they say that the jvc have much more resolution.

Sony Resolution vertically 689LP JVC 960LP
Sony Resolution horizontally 621LP JVC 960LP

that means the sony will have not as far as much details in the picture and will be looks
a bit soft compare to the jvc.
can anybody confirm this?
i can not believe this.

they als say the display the sony have is much better but i read posts here that say the same.

it will may 2 weeks befor i can test both myself.

please note this is the europe 50 frame version.
i buy the us version with 60 frame as it not flickers and have more frame and therefore better motion.
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post #186 of 1579 Old 04-30-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Joe- thanks for the comments. I would be interested in hearing what you do to get a PC capable of watching 3D working on your computer. I think eventually, I will want to get a 3D monitor on my PC for editing. I'm sure the anaglyph in Vegas will get old fast. Today, I could kick myself for not inquiring at NAB how they had the hardware configured at Sony workstations for doing the sessions on Vegas training. Whatever they were doing it all worked nicely using the 3D passive monitor for watching the editing changes in real time. Passive is the way to go because you could continue wearing the glasses as you switched from 3D to computer monitor 2D. BUT, I understand that passive is just half resolution so that would not work for your purpose of MVC on the PC, right? I may need to wait until next year for the 4K2K passive monitors to get everything. It never ends! Meanwhile I wait for reality to happen which is my Bloggie 3D to arrive. Tracking number says today!

Here's a link to DAVTechTable YouTube videos, and this one talks about 3D monitoring with Adobe Premiere - everything from colored glasses to active. This is a 7 part series on Premiere and Cineform's NeoHD and Neo3D, but Cineform's Firstlight works with Vegas, too. What I'm not sure about is Vegas' monitoring options. Frank's the one who's worked with Firstlight in both Premiere and Vegas. Since I've been out of the editing loop for a while, I"m still getting up to speed on these newest developments. Lots to learn. As for MVC viewing, that happens with Arcsoft's Total Media Theater 5. That's what I'll have to use to watch the JVC's mp4 files from the computer.

Last night I watched well over an hour's worth of footage I shot in MVC mode on the TD1. I didn't see any of the side by side artifacts that sometimes manifest in that mode - minor line jittering and aliasing. MVC output from the JVC is outstanding, and pretty much ghost free on my Samsung plasma display. Wish I could say the same for my JVC 3D projector. Although it's great with 3D Blu-ray, with virtually no ghosting, it ghosts badly with certain kinds of content.

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post #187 of 1579 Old 04-30-2011, 11:41 PM
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I'm cross posting the following, but I had to set the record straight here because of some misinformation I've been spreading about the new JVC 3D projectors:

I need to apologize and offer a retraction - sort of. I jumped to a conclusion about 120hz video on the JVC projectors. I said I was convinced they couldn't handle 120hz refresh rates without ghosting. The fact is that ghosting with footage shot in MVC mode on JVC's TD1 3D camcorder is not a problem. I just watched some Shaw's Garden MVC footage and it looks wonderful on my JVC RS40. Side by side video on the RS40 is a problem, and I much prefer watching it on my Samsung 3D plasma. The Samsung ghosts far less with SbS 120hz. For MVC, the RS40 turns into a different animal. I don't know why. With SbS, I can't escape the ghosting. With MVC footage, I barely notice it. It's like 3D Blu-ray. And because the JVC has far superior black level and contrast compared to the Samsung, it has a lot more "pop."

Again, I apologize. I jumped to a conclusion, and it was just plain wrong. I'll be shooting only in MVC mode from now on, and I won't worry about a compromised picture for me and my guests. It's a big relief for me, but it also emphasizes the need to get a viable 3D editing solution for MVC files.

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post #188 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 01:25 AM
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Joe- Interesting observation- With the Sony VW90ES, I see no ghosting at all on BluRay content. I see frequent ghosting on SBS, especially when rules are broken in the shooting. e.g. not to pick on Frank but most of his experiments show ghosting but then we have to accept that he is experimenting with pushing the camcorders into conditions they were published as not designed for. Some video 3D on Vudu which is full frame packed I see mostly washed out colors compared to BD. I have one blueray made in Holland that is washed out video and sideby side. It has a bunch of ghosting but all of that is near the bottom of the screen for some reason. I shot a similar look with the Bloggie today and no ghosting.

My rule- I shoot in the maximum resolution the camera is capable of when not experimenting. I don't want to be caught with a library that could have been shot better technically. I have enough self critical disappointment in my shooting capability so I don't need more kicking myself having wasted an opportunity with being in SD mode. Glad you will follow that rule too as your shooting is quite good. On the JVC you can off load your clips to a hard drive in MVC can't you?
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post #189 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 02:15 AM
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i did this short youtube vid let me know if it worked for you guys



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTurxp7CnSs
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post #190 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

i did this short youtube vid let me know if it worked for you guys



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTurxp7CnSs

That appears to be a 2D video that you tagged as 3D.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #191 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 04:27 AM
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well i downloaded the stuff i shot on a memory card to pmb then just sent the vid to youtube and in tags i typed in yt3d:embed=true what am i doing wrong.everything i shot on the cam was set on auto.when i played it on the tv it to was set to auto and stuff looked nice.what am i missing.the vids i downloaded to pmb played on pmb look normal no blur nothing 2d and very clear.
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post #192 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

well i downloaded the stuff i shot on a memory card to pmb then just sent the vid to youtube and in tags i typed in yt3d:embed=true what am i doing wrong.everything i shot on the cam was set on auto.when i played it on the tv it to was set to auto and stuff looked nice.what am i missing.the vids i downloaded to pmb played on pmb look normal no blur nothing 2d and very clear.

My guess would be that PMB is the problem. It doesn't see the 3D attributes and treats it as 2D.
You should just use a internet browser to upload via YouTube.com and select upload and enter the filename directly.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #193 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 06:50 AM
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ok try this . if this dosent work someone please give me a play by play to upload to utube. i have the vids on memory card .





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=348xfG4ORWQ
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post #194 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 07:01 AM
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Two problems ice-

First of all your choice of location had lots of glass and the glass had lots of reflections of the same scene dislocated from the real scene which really confused the 3D.
Second, you need to slow down the camera movement. You are moving much too fast for my brain to catchup to the images.

The video is obviously in red / cyan anaglyph which YouTube did to whatever you uploaded. When I put red cyan glasses on the slower camera movements began to come into 3D view for me.

Couple of tips to improve your 3D productions-

1. shoot only scenes with solid objects that have no reflections.

2. shoot with the camera still for 5-10 seconds, pause move camera hold it still and shoot another without camera movement. This will cut the scenes together in the camera edit and be easier to see.

When photographer must shoot in an environment with lots of glass reflections, use a polarizing filter ( tricky with 3D) to remove the glare.


With 3D video that is being switched such as active glasses, camera movement MUST be kept to very very slow or the image will not track with the eyes and your 3D will be lost to a blurred set of objects in the scene. When the eyes switch, the scene must be the same for each eye for a 30th of a second. If one eye sees a different image than the other each switch point the image 3D will be lost to a blur. In anaglyph the blur becomes a mess of red and cyan over the colored scene. It has no definition.
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post #195 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 07:07 AM
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I just played it and it still appears to be a 2D video with the flag set to 3D.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #196 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 07:11 AM
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Did you shoot the video in MVC or AVCHD mode?

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #197 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 07:14 AM
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OK no more reflections but there is something really strange with your video. In the simplest part where there is a table and a stool if I pause the video and look at it with the glasses, one eye at a time, you have actually two different scenes superimposed over each other. I have no idea how this is happening. If I know where and when you shot those two, I may be able to figure out what is getting screwed up here. If you are seeing perfect video in playback on your 3D monitor then it must be something you are doing in YouTube. There are other uploads in anaglyph that look great so the You Tube system works.

Can you grab a couple of stills and send me the raw image with no anaglyph conversion?
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post #198 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

OK no more reflections but there is something really strange with your video. In the simplest part where there is a table and a stool if I pause the video and look at it with the glasses, one eye at a time, you have actually two different scenes superimposed over each other. I have no idea how this is happening. If I know where and when you shot those two, I may be able to figure out what is getting screwed up here. If you are seeing perfect video in playback on your 3D monitor then it must be something you are doing in YouTube. There are other uploads in anaglyph that look great so the You Tube system works.

Can you grab a couple of stills and send me the raw image with no anaglyph conversion?

The problem is that he uploaded a 2D video but set the youtube flag to 3D and youtube just assumes it's sbs 3d and this is the result.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #199 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

ok try this . if this dosent work someone please give me a play by play to upload to utube. i have the vids on memory card .





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=348xfG4ORWQ

I think what you did is upload a MVC 3D file that YouTube sees as 2D because it doesn't support the MVC 3D format currently. You then set the flag to YT3D enable = true which tells Youtube that it's 3D.
Doing that makes YouTube assume it's a sbs AVCHD type format which it isn't.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #200 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 09:09 AM
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the files in property say avc i dont know how to shoot or get the mvc deal Sorry guys i am a total noob bare with me . Here is what ive done

1. all settings to auto
2. shot vids on the memory card
3 put vid card in computer and waited for pmb to ask to import
4 vids were all uploaded to pmb
5 when i hit the right mouse for propertys it say avc files 5.1
thats it. So i have to figure out the mvc files


inn the manual memory card hd imiage quality says
3d ps FX FH HQ LP


I dont see mvc anywheres
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post #201 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

the files in property say avc i dont know how to shoot or get the mvc deal Sorry guys i am a total noob bare with me . Here is what ive done

1. all settings to auto
2. shot vids on the memory card
3 put vid card in computer and waited for pmb to ask to import
4 vids were all uploaded to pmb
5 when i hit the right mouse for propertys it say avc files 5.1
thats it. So i have to figure out the mvc files


inn the manual memory card hd imiage quality says
3d ps FX FH HQ LP


I dont see mvc anywheres

Did you try uploading the file from your computer using the upload facility on the YouTube.com website?

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #202 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:04 AM
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OK here's my attempt at using You Tube 3D I had to renew and link my accounts as I haven't used YouTube in a couple years.

Finally got it working.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHdeB0ra5WM


The video has a variety of clips from micro tripod, to handheld, sunlight to shade, simple to busy subject around my backyard. I have not viewed this video on my Sony Projector, only on YouTube in anaglyph color mode. I also just learned about the 3D tags and I must say that info was hard to find.

So, this is my first attempt with the Bl;oggie shot this morning at 10:30AM clips were quickly butted together in Vegas and rendered. Then I spent an hour trying to figure out how to do this in You Tube.
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post #203 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:15 AM
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Hey Frank I put his SBS video up without the anaglyph mode and he clearly has two different video clips running in sync. I have no idea how he did that.
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post #204 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:15 AM
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ok i am doing something wrong me thinks . in the manual the only thing i see in mvc is the movie recording format


THIS is right out of the instructions

HD.
3D MVC {original format}
2D MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 AVCHD format compatible {1080/60p orignal format}
STD MPEG2-PS




The movies i have in pmb say avc .does pmb except mvc .where the heck is the settings for the highest quialty. Dam i hate being the new guy .Lol I did shoot some hockey this morning and got home and look at it .Looked nice to me i guess. There is a setting in the cam WHEN HOOKED UP TO THE TV .iT SAYS Auto SbS and framepack does that have something to do with mvc. boy i am clueless
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post #205 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:46 AM
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Ok i found some other settings you have to set cam to 2d to open up these other menus . I got frame rate what should i select 60i 60p 24p.. REC MODE WAS ON STANDARD i ASSUME FX is the highest setting there is a chart on the bottom of this screen that says

recordable /Coypable meadia


internal mem memorey card HDD Bluray AVCHD



When i select standard All are on. When i select highest quality FX .The avchd selection is crossed out. Any clues on all this stuff. PLEASE advie me on the frame rate deal thanks alot guys serious thanks.
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post #206 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Hey Frank I put his SBS video up without the anaglyph mode and he clearly has two different video clips running in sync. I have no idea how he did that.

That's not what I'm seeing.
I am definitely seeing a 2D video with the left and right sides overlaping.
Your video on the other hand looks fine.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #207 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icerat4 View Post

ok i am doing something wrong me thinks . in the manual the only thing i see in mvc is the movie recording format


THIS is right out of the instructions

HD.
3D MVC {original format}
2D MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 AVCHD format compatible {1080/60p orignal format}
STD MPEG2-PS




The movies i have in pmb say avc .does pmb except mvc .where the heck is the settings for the highest quialty. Dam i hate being the new guy .Lol I did shoot some hockey this morning and got home and look at it .Looked nice to me i guess. There is a setting in the cam WHEN HOOKED UP TO THE TV .iT SAYS Auto SbS and framepack does that have something to do with mvc. boy i am clueless

The way I read it is that the Sony only records 3D in frame packed MVC mode unlike the JVC which does both MVC and AVCHD 3D.
Seems to me that there is no way to get 3D out of this thing onto your computer.
I hope I'm wrong about this.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #208 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 10:55 AM
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Whats the best frame rate 60i 60p 24p ..
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post #209 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 11:01 AM
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I can tell ya this with rec mode in standard stuff looks good to me..Frank when i choose a lower rec mode such as just high quality FH all recordable /copyable media are lit up .its when i select FX highest quailty the avchd has a slash red line thru it.But blu ray hdd memory card and int memory are all on.
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post #210 of 1579 Old 05-01-2011, 11:09 AM
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I don't know much about this camcorder at all but I just looked at the online manual and it appears that the 3D can only be played back from the camera.
Until Sony supplies a method of working with the 3D MVC files this is pretty much a 2D camera as far as I'm concerned.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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