Upcoming Sony Vegas Pro 10D to have MVC editing ability - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bravia3D View Post

Hopefully they are taking long trying to make Vegas work with the JVC. (Wishful hoping)

Yeah, that would be awesome... though I doubt it'll happen.

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post #62 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 04:19 AM
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I really doubt it also, but let's just hope so!

It's pretty delayed so who knows. Could also have to do with the hackers attacking Sony, but I doubt that

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post #63 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 06:04 AM
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bravia3D- Look for a later release like Vegas 10e for JVC camcorder support if what they have doesn't work with 10d. When I asked about this to the guys who are in development, I was told they didn't test the JVC but if it is a popular camcorder they would try to work with JVC and add it on a later release. Of course, none of the release dates these same people stated for the camcorder and Vegas 10d have been met so who knows??
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post #64 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 06:17 AM
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lies i tell ya all lies
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post #65 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I was told they didn't test the JVC but if it is a popular camcorder they would try to work with JVC

They don't really need to work with JVC at all. They have sample files and JVC's MP4 file follows the AVC spec, which I'm sure Sony has access to. No need to ask JVC anything, really

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post #66 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 08:11 AM
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did anybody compare the SONY- with the JVC-filestructures?
b.t.w., is the SONY TD10 out already?
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post #67 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 09:22 AM
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I'm interested in getting more impressions of some footage that I shot with my JVC TD1. Here's a link to a 1.4 gig iso file of raw clips - 12 minutes worth. It's an AVCHD (side by side mode) disc structure, so it can be burned to a single layer DVD. I'm trying to figure out why there seems to be a substantial difference by some folks here in the perceived detail in the clips. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I think I'm going to try Vegas, since I'm having some issues editing these clips in Premiere. They seem to work just fine, but the resulting output doesn't sit well with tsMuxer and ImgBurn. I haven't been able to create iso images with the video files that Premiere exports. I use both freeware programs to throw together quick discs for playback on Blu-ray players. The raw JVC files work just fine, but the m4v and wav files that Premiere exports (1920x1080 60i) don't work as expected. The iso files mount, but both PowerDVD10 and TMT5 crash when they try to play the virtual discs. Any insight as to the problem?

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post #68 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

First off, don't shoot in side-by-side mode. Full 1080p per eye in MVC mode is noticeably better.

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post #69 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

First off, don't shoot in side-by-side mode. Full 1080p per eye in MVC mode is noticeably better.

Yeah, I know. I've shot a little MVC footage in the neighborhood. I'll go back to the Garden when our weather clears up. That'll be the best test for me. I'd just like to get more impressions of SbS mode. I think it's pretty good, but Frank sees it as soft and not much better than 480p. Bravia3D sees occasional severe distortions in SbS mode. I'm not picking up on those things (at least not to the extent they are), and I'm wondering why. Until we get a legitimate MVC editing solution, I'll be creating SbS programs to share with others. If we can figure out why we seem to be seeing different things, maybe we can all improve our SbS 3D viewing experiences.

Maybe the simplest explanation is that I need to visit to my eye doctor, stat.

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post #70 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

First off, don't shoot in side-by-side mode. Full 1080p per eye in MVC mode is noticeably better.

Did you end up getting and keeping a 3D projector, Petri?

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post #71 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Yeah, I know. I've shot a little MVC footage in the neighborhood. I'll go back to the Garden when our weather clears up. That'll be the best test for me. I'd just like to get more impressions of SbS mode. I think it's pretty good, but Frank sees it as soft and not much better than 480p. Bravia3D sees occasional severe distortions in SbS mode. I'm not picking up on those things (at least not to the extent they are), and I'm wondering why. Until we get a legitimate MVC editing solution, I'll be creating SbS programs to share with others. If we can figure out why we seem to be seeing different things, maybe we can all improve our SbS 3D viewing experiences.

Maybe the simplest explanation is that I need to visit to my eye doctor, stat.

My guess is the answer is more likely tied to your choice of subject material and location. Static scenes in a well lit setting do wonders for maximizing pq. Edited to add - OK, I see I jumped the gun on that assumption as I now see from the other thread that the comparisons were being made with the same source material. Maybe as an alternative explanation it has something to do with our own work looking better to us than it does to critics? lol
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post #72 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 10:52 AM
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My guess is the answer is more likely tied to your choice of subject material and location. Static scenes in a well lit setting do wonders for maximizing pq.

Good point. Bright clear day vs dim interior will make a big difference. For comparison sake, we should always make sure we're talking about the same thing. The thing is, Frank and Bravia3D and I are all looking at the footage from my Shaw's Garden clips, and we seem to be seeing different things.

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post #73 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Did you end up getting and keeping a 3D projector, Petri?

Yeah, went for the DLA-X7. MVC footage shot on the JVC camcorder looks fantastic on it

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post #74 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Yeah, went for the DLA-X7. MVC footage shot on the JVC camcorder looks fantastic on it

In this case, I envy Europeans your 100hz 3D frame rate. At 120hz, I get more ghosting than I'd like on my RS40, but almost none with 3D Blu-ray at 96hz. If I didn't live in an NTSC country, I'd own the European version of the TD1. As it stands, I sometimes prefer watching TD1 material on my Samsung plasma. There's less ghosting.

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post #75 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 02:40 PM
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So when the heck is the new Vegas out!?

3D items I own:

Sony 46" LX900 active 3D set

Sony HMZ-T3 (Cushion pads and light blocker mod)

LG LW6500 passive 3D set

PS3 & PS4

Sony BDP-S570 BD3D player

JVC-GS-TD1 (with Cyclopital base extender)

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post #76 of 157 Old 04-24-2011, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Yeah, went for the DLA-X7. MVC footage shot on the JVC camcorder looks fantastic on it

I love my RS40. It's the best projector I've ever owned. Some RS50 owners over here are livid about a low-lumens issue with their projectors compared to the RS40. Those JVC threads are HOT right now with unhappy customers. (It's not the picture quality; it's the low lumens. They like the picture.) Of course, some of them have pretty big screens, too. What do you think about your X7's light output? (Maybe we're far enough away from them here for you not to get embroiled in the debate. )

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post #77 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 02:00 AM
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Joe- I got your file and will check it out later today. Been busy over the weekend. The Sony Vegas 10d is late. Wait until it is live and then download a free copy to test. BTW- I have the Sony VW90ES projector and an OPPO BD93 or PS3 Blu Ray player. I didn't think your first work was 480p but definitely not 1920.

OT- JVC projectors- JVC philosophy is obsessed with black level and as such the people at JVC do have a lower brightness than the competing projectors. Wife and I went to CES to view JVC and were completely turned off by their too dark demo. Saw several other projectors and ended up getting the Sony. Sony is too bright in 2D so when you run it at comfortable brightness, the 3D run at full looks equal with the glasses which we prefer.
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post #78 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 06:31 AM
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OT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

What do you think about your X7's light output?

I'm happy with the unit I have. The pre-prod X7 was clearly dimmer than the production unit I eventually purchased.

/OT

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post #79 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by bravia3D View Post

So when the heck is the new Vegas out!?

I'd expect something to happen quite quickly once Sony folks come back from their Easter holidays.

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post #80 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 09:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Joe- I got your file and will check it out later today. Been busy over the weekend. The Sony Vegas 10d is late. Wait until it is live and then download a free copy to test. BTW- I have the Sony VW90ES projector and an OPPO BD93 or PS3 Blu Ray player. I didn't think your first work was 480p but definitely not 1920.

I think the 60i footage in the iso looks better than the earlier 30p edited piece output from Premiere. Neither is as good as full 1920x1080 footage, of course. Undesirable artifacts definitely are created when the display interpolates side by side 3D frames. I'm wondering, though, how much difference there is in the interpolation routines offered by the different displays. That is, does the Sony projector, or JVC projector, or Samsung plasma do a better job of interpolating 960x1080 video out to full 1920x1080? On my RS40, I think side by side video from the JVC TD1 looks very good.

I also plan to go back to Shaw's Garden when the weather gets better and shoot many of the same kinds of shots in MVC mode, so I'll be able to do direct comparisons. JVC is promising software to convert MVC footage to SbS sometime this summer, so that will allow me to shoot everything in MVC mode.

If Sony doesn't support JVC footage in Vegas right away, I believe some other company soon will. Although it's frustrating right now, I'm a little surprised things are moving as fast as they are with 3D technology - hardware and software. Two years ago, I would have bet against us being anywhere close to where we are right now in either area.

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post #81 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 11:48 AM
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Can the JVC output the MVC file to your hard drive? If so, can you upload some content so I can play with it here in Vegas? When I spoke to the JVC rep he said the camcorder will only output that MVC through the hdmi cable to view on the monitor which is what I was looking at. But, I was uncomfortable with the rep's overall knowhow on the camcorder. Of course, I won't be able to do anything until they release the 10e version.
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post #82 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Can the JVC output the MVC file to your hard drive? If so, can you upload some content so I can play with it here in Vegas? When I spoke to the JVC rep he said the camcorder will only output that MVC through the hdmi cable to view on the monitor which is what I was looking at. But, I was uncomfortable with the rep's overall knowhow on the camcorder. Of course, I won't be able to do anything until they release the 10e version.

sorry to interfear here..... On this part I have experience:
If you connect the cam by USB to PC it will show up as 2 harddrives... #1 is the SDHC-card, #2 is the interiour HDD from TD1...
Just move or copy it to your PC - possible, except the JVC-commercial-trailer, which you can only copy....

On Cam-HDD you will find the mp4-files, which is the mvc-material. I made a VEGAS-project with 3840 x 1080 pixels... It works. You can see both left and right full-HD-pictures on your monitor. I am using it with Blackmagic Shuttle USB 3.0 as external monitor.
So far, so good.... I can also edit the material like I do in 2D, but you cannot render it as MP4/MVC.... This is where my experience ended....

Any further ideas?

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post #83 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post
I'm wondering, though, how much difference there is in the interpolation routines offered by the different displays. That is, does the Sony projector, or JVC projector, or Samsung plasma do a better job of interpolating 960x1080 video out to full 1920x1080?
That's scaling, not interpolating. Scaling horizontally is a very simple to do so I wouldn't expect much difference.

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JVC is promising software to convert MVC footage to SbS sometime this summer, so that will allow me to shoot everything in MVC mode.
I don't see the point of this. Why shoot in Full HD only to drop horizontal resolution in half by converting to SbS in post?

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post #84 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 12:36 PM
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On Cam-HDD you will find the mp4-files, which is the mvc-material. I made a VEGAS-project with 3840 x 1080 pixels... It works. You can see both left and right full-HD-pictures on your monitor.
My Vegas simply crashes when I try opening one of the MVC files.

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post #85 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post
My Vegas simply crashes when I try opening one of the MVC files.
It works fine for me - I swear....
Another try: rename the *.mp4 to *.mpg....

I rememeber when I first did it I had some crashes too. But now it works....
Are you on 10.0c ?

Following DON LANDIS´talk with JVC..."you can only watch MVC via HDMI 1.4 on TV..." I tell you, this is wrong. Even in the manual they tell you that rubbish. Copying, erasing and drag/drop is possible via USB-cable !!!

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post #86 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen
My Vegas simply crashes when I try opening one of the MVC files.
Crash? Or does it just not let you put the clip on the timeline. In the past when there was an incompatible file form you may see the file if the extention was common, like mpg but it wont allow you to drag and drop to the timeline unless the proper codec was installed.
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post #87 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

That's scaling, not interpolating. Scaling horizontally is a very simple to do so I wouldn't expect much difference.


I don't see the point of this. Why shoot in Full HD only to drop horizontal resolution in half by converting to SbS in post?

The point is simple - so I can edit now with my favorite tools while I wait for MVC editing tools. Today I can edit and share 3D with whoever I want to. Tomorrow I can edit the same footage in full HD. I wish the first shots I took had been MVC, but I'm learning. I wanted to shoot and share, and get feedback.

As for interpolation, isn't the image scaled, but the pixels interpolated? At least mathematically, it seems accurate to refer to the process of creating missing pixels as interpolation. No?

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post #88 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

The point is simple - so I can edit now with my favorite tools while I wait for MVC editing tools. Today I can edit and share 3D with whoever I want to. Tomorrow I can edit the same footage in full HD. I wish the first shots I took had been MVC, but I'm learning. I wanted to shoot and share, and get feedback.

Yeah OK, good point. My main interest is to not skimp on image quality which is probably why I didn't thought of it from your perspective.

Quote:


As for interpolation, isn't the image scaled, but the pixels interpolated? At least mathematically, it seems accurate to refer to the process of creating missing pixels as interpolation. No?

Well-ll yes, but no Scaling always creates pixels but it's referred to as scaling.

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post #89 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 02:28 PM
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I watched the iso file that I posted in its entirety on my Samsung C8000 plasma TV today. It was a revelation. It looks far better on the plasma than it does on the RS40. The main culprit is crosstalk contamination. 120hz crosstalk on the RS40 is much worse than it is on the Samsung. In every case, areas where I see artifacting on the RS40, it's almost completely gone on the Samsung. Even in the few panning and tilting shots, when fine details move across the screen, there is almost no jitter, even on diagonal lines. Many of these Shaw's Garden shots have a tremendous amount of fine detail. It takes on a whole level of crispness and solidity compared to the RS40. It really pains me to say it, but it's obvious. I still prefer the RS40 for 3D Blu-ray movies. At 96hz, the JVC is superior. At 120hz, the Samsung spanks the JVC and sends it home crying. It's not a testimonial JVC would print, but it also tells me what a great job this freshman 3D camcorder effort is. At least with the type of material I've shot so far, the image quality is stellar.

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post #90 of 157 Old 04-25-2011, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I watched the iso file that I posted in its entirety on my Samsung C8000 plasma TV today. It was a revelation. It looks far better on the plasma than it does on the RS40. The main culprit is crosstalk contamination. 120hz crosstalk on the RS40 is much worse than it is on the Samsung. In every case, areas where I see artifacting on the RS40, it's almost completely gone on the Samsung. Even in the few panning and tilting shots, when fine details move across the screen, there is almost no jitter, even on diagonal lines. Many of these Shaw's Garden shots have a tremendous amount of fine detail. It takes on a whole level of crispness and solidity compared to the RS40. It really pains me to say it, but it's obvious. I still prefer the RS40 for 3D Blu-ray movies. At 96hz, the JVC is superior. At 120hz, the Samsung spanks the JVC and sends it home crying. It's not a testimonial JVC would print, but it also tells me what a great job this freshman 3D camcorder effort is. At least with the type of material I've shot so far, the image quality is stellar.

That's good to know from my point of view as I just ordered a PN63C8000.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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