Create MKV File 3D Full Frame Packing? - AVS Forum
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Old 04-12-2011, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I am looking for a solution to rip some of my blu-rays to MKV format in the full frame packing format, not the side by side or top and bottom format. Is there ripping software that can accomodate this?
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Old 04-12-2011, 08:58 PM
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Old 04-12-2011, 09:23 PM
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MKV does not support frame packed.
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stepmback
I am looking for a solution to rip some of my blu-rays to MKV format in the full frame packing format, not the side by side or top and bottom format. Is there ripping software that can accomodate this?
DVDFab 3D may be the only software that can rip these movies but only in the SBS and Top/Bottom format. The only solution I would advise to you would be to copy instead of rip and save the copy as an .iso and use a utility like DVDFab Virtual Drive to mount the .iso so that you could watch it with TMT5 or PDVD10 ( or any other software based 3DBD viewer) until the framed packed to mkv solution is addressed.
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Old 04-19-2011, 09:12 AM
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3d Bluray video is not stored as "framepacked". Framepacked refers to how the video is streamed to the display.
3D bluray video is encoded as MVC. Where the left stream contains the 2D movie or left eye video, and the right stream contains the delta needed to create the right eye video. The blueray player decodes the MVC streams into two seperate streams for each eye and then framepack them for HDMI 1.4 output.

How you choose to re-encode your blurays is up to you. You can use sbs, T/B, frame sequential, or even 2 seperate video streams muxed into a MKV. Framepacking is done at the HDMI output.
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Old 04-21-2011, 10:29 AM
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On this subject... is there any source for 3d blurays for rental? My local retailers only have a very select few for sale.......... like maybe 10-15 titles.

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Old 04-21-2011, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Araltd View Post

On this subject... is there any source for 3d blurays for rental? My local retailers only have a very select few for sale.......... like maybe 10-15 titles.

I rented Avatar 3D blu-ray from them and it worked fine.

http://www.3d-blurayrental.com/

Not cheap though.
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Old 04-21-2011, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by stepmback View Post
I rented Avatar 3D blu-ray from them and it worked fine.

http://www.3d-blurayrental.com/

Not cheap though.
Wow... $8 average price... well, it is what I ask for though... That seems a bit high to me................

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Old 04-21-2011, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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You get the disc for 2 weeks so you will get plenty of use out of it.
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Old 05-17-2011, 07:40 AM
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Are there any alternatives to playing Full HD 3D besides PowerDVD and TMT?

I'd really like to use a much simplier application (to integrate with XBMC) to play back these movies but I really want to keep the Full HD 3D.

Is this possible at all? If so, what applications would work?
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Old 05-17-2011, 07:51 AM
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You need to be more precise here because, you description of keeping the FullHD 3D is so vague that any 2D video player would count if you've got a dual-projector and side-by-side full-res (non-squashed) content (3840x1080 video)

Specify input (type of file, stereo storage method and encoding compression)
and specify output (type of display and connectivity)

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My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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Old 05-17-2011, 07:57 AM
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Oh, sorry.

My output is HDMI 1.4a (Panasonic TCP50GT25 Plasma Full HD 3D TV).

The input is a Bluray 3D movie. Right now I have them stored as ISO files that I play with PowerDVD. However, I'd like to extract the 3D video from the ISO (or disc) and store it in a different format (MKV, separate files, etc).

I then want to play back these Full HD 3D files to my TV using HDMI 1.4 frame packing (ie. the same method as Bluray 3D).

My goal is to playback these Bluray 3D movies at full quality (full 1080p for each eye) without using PowerDVD or TMT.
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Old 05-17-2011, 08:07 AM
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Old 05-17-2011, 08:22 AM
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Oh my bad you are wanting to create a mkv file from an iso sorry
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Old 05-17-2011, 09:37 AM
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is it possible to encode the video as pageflipped instead of framepacked and play that back on the plasma? that way you are feeding your display with a native 3d source and not losing any resolution.
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Old 05-17-2011, 11:56 AM
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You should try the latest version of Stereoscopic player, it won't read the BluRay disc menus but it should be able to read the video files directly if you make it open the SSIF files in the disc structure. (I haven't tested yet).

You can also rip and reencode the movie into side by side at full resolution (3840x1080 frame) into a single mkv or mp4 file.

In theory it should also be possible to store the video without reencoding by putting all the necessary files into an mkv container but at the moment matroska lacks the tools to make sure video players will recognize these streams, so it probably won't work with the current tools.

Stereoscopic player can output video in hdmi 1.4 frame packing by using Nvidia 3D Vision output and AMD HD3D output if your graphics card supports them.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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Old 05-17-2011, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

3d Bluray video is not stored as "framepacked". Framepacked refers to how the video is streamed to the display.
3D bluray video is encoded as MVC. Where the left stream contains the 2D movie or left eye video, and the right stream contains the delta needed to create the right eye video. The blueray player decodes the MVC streams into two seperate streams for each eye and then framepack them for HDMI 1.4 output.

How you choose to re-encode your blurays is up to you. You can use sbs, T/B, frame sequential, or even 2 seperate video streams muxed into a MKV. Framepacking is done at the HDMI output.

Very nice explanation of MVC.
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Old 05-31-2011, 01:09 AM
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where can i download sbs movies? thanks.
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Old 06-19-2011, 11:08 AM
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Are you asking where to pirate movies? Try here: http://www.wipo.int//portal/index.html.en
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Old 06-19-2011, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

In theory it should also be possible to store the video without reencoding by putting all the necessary files into an mkv container but at the moment matroska lacks the tools to make sure video players will recognize these streams, so it probably won't work with the current tools.

Stereoscopic player can output video in hdmi 1.4 frame packing by using Nvidia 3D Vision output and AMD HD3D output if your graphics card supports them.

Storing the video in a MKV without re-encoding is not possible as far as I know. The right eye needs to be decoded from MVC delta and encoded into an AVC stream if it is to be contained in a MKV. This muxed with the source left eye stream would leave you with a MKV file containing both video streams and may require more storage than the original bluray files.

Best to re-encode both streams hoping to get as best compression as possible, and you might save some space (otherwise just use the bluray ISO).
During encoding you can interpolate them into a single stream containing alternating frames and AVC (x264) can save quite a bit of space through estimation (at the cost of potential encoded crosstalk between frames). A SBS video of 3840x1080, or two seperate streams would be decent, but it would be hard to do it well with less bitrate than the original bluray.
This is why half resolution SbS is so popular for re-encodes, it's the only sensible compromise for space and quality.

If we could find a way to remux the source MVC from a bluray straight into a MKV without re-encoding, that would be great.
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Old 06-19-2011, 01:19 PM
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Are we able to burn these sbs mkv files to bd5/bd9/bd25(sbs video of 3080x1080 or separate files)and play in 3D player standalone or ps3
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Old 06-19-2011, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by obveron View Post

Storing the video in a MKV without re-encoding is not possible as far as I know.

Best to re-encode both streams hoping to get as best compression as possible, and you might save some space (otherwise just use the bluray ISO).
During encoding you can interpolate them into a single stream containing alternating frames and AVC (x264) can save quite a bit of space through estimation (at the cost of potential encoded crosstalk between frames). A SBS video of 3840x1080, or two seperate streams would be decent, but it would be hard to do it well with less bitrate than the original bluray

There are no limitations to store the video straight out of a BluRay 3D to mkv.
You can extract the data and get the raw 2D and Delta streams and then put them into a single mkv file.
MVC is designed to be storable in many ways (separate files, separate streams or single stream) and the matroska specs are flexible enough to allow them.
What is lacking is the tools to detect the types of streams and flag them appropriately when storing the streams into mkv files. As well as MKV demuxers capable of understanding them and transmitting the info to the video player so that it can call an MVC codec.

If reencoding, theory says frame sequential should be the way to go since it should allow optimisations similar to MVC.
Unfortunately, current implementations in AVC encoders just don't take advantage of them. An x264 developer claimed he got a nice quality/bitrate boost with one of his test footage, unfortunately this never happened with my own test footage, the results I had were the opposite. I got lower quality than independent streams for higher bitrate because depth was interpreted as motion, the adaptiv quality algorithms detects separated elements of the image as motion and applies blur to spare the bitrate for stuff it believed were not moving (the parts at screen depth). It did not create ghosting (i did not test ultra-low bitrates though).
At the moment the best scheme for reencoding is to do side by side at full resolution if you play the video with a PC and at half resolution if you have to play it with a stand alone device. (since no stand alone device currently supports side by side full resolution)
The bitrate of BluRay and BluRay 3D is extremely high, there is no problem with using a lower bitrate to get equivalent or slightly smaller files size even when doing side by side full resolution : the video quality remains excellent.
I made my own half-bitrate re-encode of the Avatar BluRay 3D with the proper encoding settings and I have to pause the video in order to notice any compression artefacts : as long as the movie is running, the quality is transparent.

Passive 3D, forever !
My Full-HD dual-projector passive polarised 3D setup. (really out of date ! I need to update it some day...)

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Old 06-19-2011, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vamovie View Post

Are we able to burn these sbs mkv files to bd5/bd9/bd25(sbs video of 3080x1080 or separate files)and play in 3D player standalone or ps3

No. Not 3080x1080 anyway. However 1/2 res SBS (960x1080) was designed to be 100% compatible with normal systems. There is no reason why you couldn't use 1/2 res in a MKV and have it play through a PS3, of course the quality won't be quite as good.
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Old 06-19-2011, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bigbarney View Post

No. Not 3080x1080 anyway. However 1/2 res SBS (960x1080) was designed to be 100% compatible with normal systems. There is no reason why you couldn't use 1/2 res in a MKV and have it play through a PS3, of course the quality won't be quite as good.

so instead 3080x1080 if i choose 96x1080 it will play on my ps3!!!!!!!
and file size should be under 3.99GB!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-06-2011, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vamovie

so instead 3080x1080 if i choose 96x1080 it will play on my ps3!!!!!!!
and file size should be under 3.99GB!!!!!!!!!!!!
You don't have to worry about the fat32 4 gig limit if you use ps3 media server and you don't have to convert the mkv file I have a sbs 3d version of Avatar on my computer that's 18 gig streams right over my network thru ps3 media server.
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Old 07-08-2011, 04:31 AM
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Did you mess with any of the setting in ps3 media server to get this working? I upgraded to the newest version but mkv sbs won't work. Works fine with my wd media player.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:32 AM
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Did you mess with any of the setting in ps3 media server to get this working? I upgraded to the newest version but mkv sbs won't work. Works fine with my wd media player.

If I recall right there is something to do with the dts decoder that can stop it from working mess with those settings in ps3 media server
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Old 01-16-2012, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sofakng View Post

Oh, sorry.

My output is HDMI 1.4a (Panasonic TCP50GT25 Plasma Full HD 3D TV).

The input is a Bluray 3D movie. Right now I have them stored as ISO files that I play with PowerDVD. However, I'd like to extract the 3D video from the ISO (or disc) and store it in a different format (MKV, separate files, etc).

I then want to play back these Full HD 3D files to my TV using HDMI 1.4 frame packing (ie. the same method as Bluray 3D).

My goal is to playback these Bluray 3D movies at full quality (full 1080p for each eye) without using PowerDVD or TMT.


You know, I remember a time when I had to spend hours on end trying to tweak various video formats/files so that they would play on this or that device... Have you tried taking the ssif files you want to watch and just renaming them as .mt2s then playing on your TV directly (via USB/NIC/whatever it supports)? I spent a couple hours trying to figure out how to convert bluray backups to play on my TV until I realized I didn't actually have to
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Old 01-16-2012, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Buser View Post

You know, I remember a time when I had to spend hours on end trying to tweak various video formats/files so that they would play on this or that device... Have you tried taking the ssif files you want to watch and just renaming them as .mt2s then playing on your TV directly (via USB/NIC/whatever it supports)? I spent a couple hours trying to figure out how to convert bluray backups to play on my TV until I realized I didn't actually have to

Indeed... the .ssif files from 3D bluray discs are MVC files that contain content for both eyes. They are backwards compatible and will play in 2D on any bluray decoder. The 2D decoders ignore the information in the MVC (ssif) file for the 2nd view, i.e. 2D decoders ignore one of the eyes.

These .ssif files from bluray 3D disks can be played in 3D on a decoder that is written to decode both views (a 3D decoder).

Some 3D capable decoders have been observed to play these 3D files in 2D. This is believed to be a licensing restriction where they only decode 3D when played in an authorized manner from original media. When not played in an authorized manner, they play them in 2D.

This is where "un-licensed" 3D players have an advantage, since they do not have to comply with licensing restrictions. Non-licensed decoders may be able to play the files in 3D, since they ignore the restrictions that licensed decoders have to obey.

An example of an unlicensed decoder is found in some of the media players based on the realtek 1186 chip. See this thread linked here
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1384106

Although this thread here asked a question using terminology in a less than optimum manner, the answer is that ssif files from a ripped 3D bluray are mvc, and these contain the "compressed" 3D signal for both eyes into one stream. It is not "frame packed," since that term refers to the uncompressed signal on the HDMI cable. The ssif file has the highest quality 3D signal inside.

Technically, compressed is what MVC files are which are the ripped ssif files from an ripped disk. They are "compressed" (made smaller) so the movie fits on the bluray disk.

Technically, packed signals are the uncompressed version of the movie, after processed by the chips in the player (or by a PC), and puts the result in a packed format on the the HDMI cable.

Technically, the monitor that receives the HDMI signal doesn't need to un-compress, since that was done before the signal was placed on the HDMI cable. The monitor needs to "unpack" the signal and puts it onto the display (lcd dlp crt).

Non-tehcnically, the most detailed picture for a ripped bluray 3D iso is found when the file is not is not converted to Half-SBS. This "most detailed picture" is in the content of the ssif files.

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Old 10-11-2013, 10:35 AM
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So is or there isn't any way to make FULL FRAME PACKING MKV FILE without any loose from any bluray 3d disc?

I try yhe program makemkv but the only thing is do is to make an mkv for 2d television and NOT 3d so.....
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