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post #271 of 315 Old 07-15-2011, 01:49 PM
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Marty- Any HD bluray authoring program will create a HD Bluray disk that can be used to display 3D if working with SBS half format. We can do it in DVDA as well. But nobody yet has an authoring program to use the full resolution MVC files and generate a full HD 3D bluray disk that the display will sense and switch to 3D automatically. Excepting the commercial expensive products like BluPrint. Currently the only way to create a Bluray 3D HD is to remain in Vegas 10e and generate the 3D iso file that any iso burn software can put on a BD-R. This is without menus but you can set up chapter stops in Vegas. I don't think it will be long before we will have such tools, but not today.
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post #272 of 315 Old 07-15-2011, 02:13 PM
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Don:

Thanks for the clarification. It has ben quite a learning experience for me. I guess I am not yet ready to graduate.

Marty
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post #273 of 315 Old 07-15-2011, 02:56 PM
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None of us are, Marty. And, that includes the developers.

Joe- I took a risk and downloaded the TMT5 (Demo version) First of all it doesn't recognize iso files at all. In fact the supported files doesn't even list it.

I went through the instructions on the website help support page so I could figure out how they wanted me to use this. It launched fine and recognized my optical drives right off. But I could not get the aspect ratio set to display 16x9. The videos were all squished fat. I was able to get the SBS videos I made in wmv format to display properly on my 3D monitor. NOne of the MVC m2ts files would display in the right AR. Worse, the clips were recognized as 3D but did not play in what looked like quality 3D.

I give this POS application a solid F and say it is not ready for prime time. Don't waste your money on it. I wasted my time on yet another wild goose chase. Now I'm off to see if I can uninstall this monster. Yes it was a monster of install too.

One more thing why does this software want to turn my computer into an uploading server? I don't like what my security tools flag something like this. There should be no reason I need to be serving my hard drive content. Maybe it's an upload to YT feature I did not see. Regardless, I disabled it's server operations.
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post #274 of 315 Old 07-15-2011, 03:38 PM
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Hello,

I found what makes the issues with iso3D.
It's the setting of the virtualcd mounting the iso. When the iso is more than 1GB, it considers as DVD and not BR so, TMT5 cannot read.

Ok, Don, TMT5 doesn't support iso file directly.
Vegas makes iso --> mount iso with virtualcd (as BR) --> TMT5 recognize the BR3D and play it.
I just built a little PC just to play iso3D or footage from my dual cam :
- Motherboard H61 with HDMI + core i3 2100 + 4GB + 64GB SSD.
- all iso and other video are stored in a NAS.

Just look at sony webinar about 3d workflow.

Now waiting for menu3D.
I will retry to re-render several veg projects into one and pray for vegas doesn't crash near the end....
Is there a way to merge several iso3D into one ?

Ah, the TM server of TMT5 is for a remote control from iDevice or Android remote application. I use my ipad to remote TMT5.
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post #275 of 315 Old 07-15-2011, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
None of us are, Marty. And, that includes the developers.

Joe- I took a risk and downloaded the TMT5 (Demo version) First of all it doesn't recognize iso files at all. In fact the supported files doesn't even list it.

I went through the instructions on the website help support page so I could figure out how they wanted me to use this. It launched fine and recognized my optical drives right off. But I could not get the aspect ratio set to display 16x9. The videos were all squished fat. I was able to get the SBS videos I made in wmv format to display properly on my 3D monitor. NOne of the MVC m2ts files would display in the right AR. Worse, the clips were recognized as 3D but did not play in what looked like quality 3D.

I give this POS application a solid F and say it is not ready for prime time. Don't waste your money on it. I wasted my time on yet another wild goose chase. Now I'm off to see if I can uninstall this monster. Yes it was a monster of install too.

One more thing why does this software want to turn my computer into an uploading server? I don't like what my security tools flag something like this. There should be no reason I need to be serving my hard drive content. Maybe it's an upload to YT feature I did not see. Regardless, I disabled it's server operations.
TMT5 can be a touch flaky sometimes, but as itou31 says, the reason your iso files were not recognized was that they need to be mounted with Virtual Clone Drive from Slysoft. It's a very un-intrusive utility that sits in the background waiting for you to click an iso file. When you do, it mounts it and (if you're set up for auto play) your system calls TMT5 or PowerDVD to play the virtual disc.

I have over 33 TB of hard drive space in two UnRaid servers sitting in my basement. Part of that space is devoted to iso files of DVDs and Blu-ray discs. Generally, I use MyMovies as a front end for Windows 7 Media Center, so that all I have to do is click on an icon of the disc cover, via its video jukebox-type interface. It finds the movie or project iso on one of the servers, mounts it and then calls the player software. The process is automated. I just browse the interface, figure out what I'm in the mood for and click. Of course, if I want, I can abbreviate the process and just click directly on an iso in a folder (or on the desktop, wherever). I have USB keyboards and mice (and USB switches) at each of my display locations, so that I can control my computers wherever I am. A Media Center remote (or Harmony emulating a Media Center remote) issues play, pause, FF, REW, etc. commands that TMT5 and PowerDVD understand without any additional drivers. Just plug in the USB IR receiver and Win7 loads the drivers automatically. That same remote also works with Windows Media Player.

Generally speaking, getting all this working can be a bit of a hassle (and sometimes more than just a bit), but it's worth it to me. Getting 3D playing from the computer has been even trickier, and I'm still working through some issues. Just today, though, I watched a few minutes of Avatar on my RS40 from a 3D iso on my server, and then a section of my Shaw's Garden video (from a 3D iso) on my editing computer and 3D LCD.

I don't have a clue why you were having AR issues, and I've never had TMT5 attempt to become a server. It does communicate with Arcsoft sometimes (when polling for updates) but that's different. Sorry your experience was not good. I use both TMT5 and PowerDVD. I switch back and forth and both are pretty reliable for me. When I upgrade or add/change things in the system, it can sometimes take a while to get everything flowing smoothly. That's been the case more so for 3D than with other changes I've made.

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post #276 of 315 Old 07-15-2011, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post
Joe, me too! But I've tried a couple of these in the past few months and many don't work as claimed. Have you tried TMT5 and does it play your Vegas ISO files locally in 3D? How is the frame rate quality? I see they have a demo download. I may give it a try as I'm between editing projects now. Time to experiment.

I think you also have a remote HT. How do you serve up these iso files and access them in your HT ( viewing on your JVC Projector ). I have a PS3 here and it sees my windows media center on one machine but the only files I can serve to it are videos in wmv. I've tried other DLNA packages but they were all too buggie and I dumped them.
I answered some of this in the previous post. Right now, I'm having some issues with TMT5 playing 3D iso files, but PowerDVD is working well (but not perfectly). I have an nVidia 450 video card in my everyday computer, but I just put together a system for my nephew that has an nVidia 430 ($65 video card - $40 after rebate ). It plays back 3D iso's smooth as butter (AMD quad core CPU, but it's not being used much - the nVidia 430 does the 3D decoding). I can drop out of Vegas, click on the 3D iso I just created, and watch the video in full 3D on my editing monitor (Samsung 3D LCD). In the next few days, I plan to refine my editing setup for better real time 3D monitoring.

Since I have a mouse/keyboard and Media Center/Harmony remote at each of my displays, with access to my computers and servers from anywhere in the house, I don't have to worry about DLNA or 3rd party video players. I'm beginning to look into DLNA, because I just got an Android tablet to play with. It's just for fun, though. I am a monster geek.

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post #277 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 03:10 AM
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Hopefully someone can answer this question for me.

So far with my TD10 and Vegas i've created (from some quick test footage I made) a 1080p24 and 720p50 bluray discs, just using basic settings to get the footage on to disc and most impressed so far.

So, now I am looking at maybe making a 2D disc for my non 3D family members! i've loaded the 3D clips into Vegas and chosen a 1080i50 option (50i as i'm in UK), Vegas gives me a few options of 10mbps or 16mpbs, naturally i've chosen 16, but what I would like to know is, is that the bitrate limit of the file from the TD10? I mean in 3D creation it does 25mpbs but i'm assuming this is almost like 12.5mbps per eye?

I may have this all wrong, I don't know.

Does the TD10 use higher bitrates etc when the cam is set to 2D? or is it just the same as the 3D setting in that its just doubled due to 2 lenses etc?

Or instead of rendering in Vegas would I not be better just burning 2D from that 3D footage using PMB as i'm thinking that wouldn't render it and just burn it?
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post #278 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 06:12 AM
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I just make everything 3D. Simpler that way! There are advantages of making a 2D version but I don't believe it involves higher bit rates on the source. For 2D version I just render the left eye.

There are lots of opinions about how 3D works. There are a few theories and even less hypotheses as in zero. My opinion is that considering 3D stereoscopic imaging is generated in the brain from the signals combined by 2 eyes, all this dividing everything by 2 is just pure nonsense. What we see is the data from 2 eyes combined to create the 3D image in our minds. It isn't real and until someone comes up with an actual test that can be performed on an imaginary image as to the real data flow rate in our imagination ( as yet no one can do) I'll just stick to bigger number is likely better and an improvement over lower number and that is just an opinion. Frankly, I don't dwell on it much as I know 99.99% of all viewers are more interested in the story, not bit rates.

The TD10 in 2D mode only uses one camera, on the left side according to the guy who designed the camera. When you switch to 3D, it turns on both. This is also the reason why when you shoot in 3D it uses more memory and sucks up battery almost twice as fast.

I haven't looked at PMB to burn clips directly to BluRay. Actually it's news to me you can do that. I'm in PMB to transfer the clips and convert them to proper files for editing and then on to Vegas. I need to check that out and see what you are talking about. Interesting because the first step I do in my editing projects is to batch load all the clips from the PMB output to a timeline and burn them to a BD-RE to review on my big 3D screen, making notes as to how I will use them ( or not) in my story. In the business we call it reviewing Dailies. Using PMB may be a better, speedier way if I can do it that way.
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post #279 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 06:29 AM
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I haven't seen any options for rendering just one eye, I just rendered the project using the 3d clips with stereoscopic set to 'off' and output 1080i50.

My main question simplified is this - is filming in 2d on the TD10 just the same as filming in 3d but obviously with just the one lens?

Basicly, apart from all the settings to play about with in 2d mode on the TD10, is there any benefit to actually recording in 2d over recording everything in 3d and just rendering a 2d image out of it? Does the 2d mode offer better bitrates or anything else?

Does anyone know what the official bitrate specs are for the TD10? and also resolutions and framerates in both modes?
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post #280 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 06:42 AM
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itou31 and Joe-

WOW! I thought this was going to be a simple way to play a 3D iso file on my computer. I see by asking the right questions, the truth comes out. It is a monster geek experiment to do something really easy, really hard and complicated. Well, I'll just stick to sneaker net for now. My work flow is:
Want to watch a movie. Pull it off the shelf- stick it in Bluray player, watch 3D. It works every time.
For editing projects- burn iso to BD-RE and play on my Vizio. Or sneakernet it to the HT and watch on my VPL VW90ES 110" screen. I don't have that many BD movies anyway as I rent them with Blockbuster Moviepass. Flat rate per month unlimited rentals.


I also want to add that my Vegas 10e has started to crash on rendering since installing the bloatware TMT5. I uninstalled it and it is still crashing. I just ran the registry file through a cleaner and it found a few more references stray garbage from that software. Trying again. This is the first time I have had computer instability ( a crash on rendering) since May! It's also the first time I've tested the junk apps like this since May. The only one that seems to be a clean app is that Cineform and I still have that on my system although I haven't used it since the test we did Joe. I should dump it too since it loads every time I reboot.

Just checked the other computer and this time it looks like it's rendering fine. We're back to normal frames per second rendering and at 13% complete and no crashing. Good job on the registry cleaner!
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post #281 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 07:18 AM
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Ok I think i've found the answer to my q's.

The TD10 in 3D mode is effectively 1080i50 x2 @ 28mbps, presumably this is 14mbps per eye.

In 2D mode the highest is 1080p50 @ 28mbps.

So for normal 2D shooting it should be much much better than just using one eye of the 3d image.

One thing I don't think i've seen though, according to the manual the highest quality 2d mode is 'PS' which is 1080p50 28mbps, i'm fairly sure all i've seen is the 'FX' mode on mine, or am I missing something?
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post #282 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 07:21 AM
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I haven't seen any options for rendering just one eye, I just rendered the project using the 3d clips with stereoscopic set to 'off' and output 1080i50. (It's there, render left eye only, render right eye only)

My main question simplified is this - is filming in 2d on the TD10 just the same as filming in 3d but obviously with just the one lens? (Just the left whole camera is on plus you get other options for shooting that are disabled in 3D)

Basicly, apart from all the settings to play about with in 2d mode on the TD10, is there any benefit to actually recording in 2d over recording everything in 3d and just rendering a 2d image out of it? Does the 2d mode offer better bitrates or anything else? You can get 2D from 3D recordings, you can't get 3D from 2D recordings. I now record everything in 3D as I know if I want a 2D version I have that option. Main advantage to shooting in 2D if you know you don't need or want 3D ever, is that you have more recording time and you have longer battery life.

Does anyone know what the official bitrate specs are for the TD10? and also resolutions and frame rates in both modes? Yes, look it up in your manual. Officially it's VBR at a nominal 28Mbs. Resolutions and frame rates are all in your manual. If you want more info than that call Sony.

Bottom line is these things don't matter in the big picture. Concentrate on shooting skills and story line if you want better quality. Worrying over this sort of thing is like worrying over the IA distance difference of 3 mm or battery life difference of 4 minutes or a 1 lux sensitivity difference.

Just saw your post and your math is flawed as you are using thinking that each image is recorded to the card at a bit rate that is half. It's not. What math you are using is based on the equipment consisting of two single cameras, similar to what Frank is shooting with on a bench. The MVC recording system does not use but one full 2D image an AVCHD and a delta file to calculate the second image for 3D. The sole purpose of doing this is to conserve on bit rate while keeping the image quality high. Within the 3D MVC file there is a full left camera image. If you shut off the right camera all you will get is that full left camera image for 2Dsame as if you don't use the right image from the MVC file to create 2D later on. The bit rate is based on the codec for MVC but it's upper limit would obviously be the camera capability. Bottom line is unless you apply some complex math you have no idea what the real mean bitrate is in an MVC file derived from a VBR video and worse yet you have no idea what it means in terms of quality. So, why waste time dwelling over this? You're better off judging by the eyeball test. If it looks good to you, be happy and concentrate on stuff you have control over.

If you don't believe the math here, go do your own double blind test and see if statistically a panel can tell the difference between a video recorded in 2D mode or the same scene recorded in 3D mode but viewing only 2D from the 3D file. My guess is statistically you won't see a difference because technically there is none.

Your thinking would be right on target if we weren't using MVC codec and we were using two separate cameras to record individual video image files.
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post #283 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 07:24 AM
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"My main question simplified is this - is filming in 2d on the TD10 just the same as filming in 3d but obviously with just the one lens?

Basicly, apart from all the settings to play about with in 2d mode on the TD10, is there any benefit to actually recording in 2d over recording everything in 3d and just rendering a 2d image out of it? Does the 2d mode offer better bitrates or anything else?"

It's time to read the manual. Besides offering much more flexibility in shooting - white balance, shutter priority, AE shift, etc. there are a lot more quality shooting options (as is clear in the menu on the camera and in the manual). You could shoot at 24 Mbps in 108060i mode - effectively in 3D you are shooting at 17Mbps 108060i, so that is a considerable increase in bit rate. Or you could shoot at 60fps progressive in 1080 at 28Mbps, for ultra-smooth, high-resolution action. Or you can shoot at 24fps progressive and pretend you are a filmaker.

So, taking 2D from the 3D shooting is basically shooting at 17Mbs interlaced, but you can have higher bitrates and/or progressive shooting in 2D. Those would give higher quality 2D video; but you might compare to see if it is very noticeable to you.
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post #284 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 07:43 AM
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Vegas Platinum 11 recognizes the 3D Bloggie videos as sbs 1/2 frame, and editing the files is straightforward. There is a render template that has the exact same specs as the original Bloggie videos - AV 1080 30p with AAC audio. It is a disappointment that Vegas does not smart render, as no transformation is being made at all to the video. So, rendering a 7.5 minute video with the same specs as the raw Bloggie 3D files takes 2 hours 38 minutes on my netbook (there are a number of transitions).
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post #285 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 07:47 AM
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"My main question simplified is this - is filming in 2d on the TD10 just the same as filming in 3d but obviously with just the one lens?

Basicly, apart from all the settings to play about with in 2d mode on the TD10, is there any benefit to actually recording in 2d over recording everything in 3d and just rendering a 2d image out of it? Does the 2d mode offer better bitrates or anything else?"

It's time to read the manual. Besides offering much more flexibility in shooting - white balance, shutter priority, AE shift, etc. there are a lot more quality shooting options (as is clear in the menu on the camera and in the manual). You could shoot at 24 Mbps in 108060i mode - effectively in 3D you are shooting at 17Mbps 108060i, so that is a considerable increase in bit rate. Or you could shoot at 60fps progressive in 1080 at 28Mbps, for ultra-smooth, high-resolution action. Or you can shoot at 24fps progressive and pretend you are a filmaker.

So, taking 2D from the 3D shooting is basically shooting at 17Mbs interlaced, but you can have higher bitrates and/or progressive shooting in 2D. Those would give higher quality 2D video; but you might compare to see if it is very noticeable to you.

Thats pretty much what I thought, thanks for the advice.

One thing that puzzles me, although not got the cam with me right now, i'm pretty sure when playing with 2d quality settings that I never saw any PS mode, the highest I think was FX which I think is 24mpbs interlaced? How do you set it to PS mode or am I just thick!
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post #286 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 09:04 AM
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So, taking 2D from the 3D shooting is basically shooting at 17Mbs interlaced, but you can have higher bitrates and/or progressive shooting in 2D. Those would give higher quality 2D video; but you might compare to see if it is very noticeable to you.

Mark what is your source for that 17Mbs number? Per Sony- the left eye camera will result in the same bitrate as shooting in 2D with the TD10. It is not 28, as that is the peak bit rate in a VBR recording which will include the data file which is highly compressible. The left eye image file is not so compressible.
The numbers are peak values in a variable bit rate monitor so it will also depend on the image changes being recorded. Easiest way to do this is to use a 3D monitor that has a bit rate display and connect your TD10 to it via the hdmi. Then shoot an action shot in 3D watch for the peak bit rates total and then switch to 2D in the camera. Then perform the same test where you switch the monitor to force 2D from the 3D output on the TD10. When I did this test back in May I saw the same readings for left eye 2D from the 3D output as when I switched the TD10 to 2D mode. It makes sense logically and the test was what Sony told me about the difference. As I said before the main advantage of shooting in 2D on the TD10 is when you need more recording time ( battery and memory) and you want those additional camera settings available in 2D mode. Any dumbing down of the left cam image in the 3D file is just pure rubbish in my opinion. The only dumbing down is in 2D where lower bit rates are offered to get longer recording time. In 3D mode there is only one recording mode. In the Nexcams you'll have the option to record in additional modes but that is a different camcorder not yet released.
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post #287 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 11:11 AM
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Vegas 10e: Answer from Sony ref the removal of the render and burn selection in Blu-Ray Burn- Not a bug but was intentionally removed due to a conflict with legal compliance on BluRay standards. It is being worked out and will be added back in a subsequent update.

( Sounds to me like some junior ass lawyer is trying to justify his existence) I can't see how this is a major issue for the BluRay standards committee. But then I don't get the big bucks to make trouble for the creators in our society. I just create the content.

So, until then, we just have to work around this using the previously recommended work flow. No big deal as far as I'm concerned. Remember, burning BD-R in 3D has not been removed, just that you can't render and burn in one operation for now.
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post #288 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 12:30 PM
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Thanks for the info Don, much appreciated. My main concern was obviously shooting stuff just once in 3d and then create both 2d and 3d discs, I agree with all you say, I think for me the best way to achieve the 2d disc is simply use pmb to burn, it doesn't render it like Vegas does, and seemingly just uses one eye, I've done a test disc and I'm impressed, better than my old sony tg3 cam.

So I'm happy now, a few days of messing and testing and getting used to Vegas for the 3d disc creation has got me where I want to be. Many thanks for the advice guys, it's much appreciated and I'm sure there will be more questions as I go along!
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post #289 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 01:59 PM
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'Mark what is your source for that 17Mbs number? Per Sony- the left eye camera will result in the same bitrate as shooting in 2D with the TD10. It is not 28, as that is the peak bit rate in a VBR recording which will include the data file which is highly compressible.'

I read that the regular channel is 17Mbps and the difference channel is 11 Mbps, but I cannot trace the source right now. However, Mediainfo confirms that the regular channel average bitrate is 16.7 Mbps from my 2D clips extracted from the 3D two channels (just ignoring the difference channel). I have checked clips with a lot of action and little action. The difference channel needs less information, so it makes sense that the regular channel has more bits allocated to it.

Logically, there is no way a total of 28 Mbps allocated to two channels can have, say, 24 Mbps average bitrate per channel. Yet, you can choose that for 2D mode - one channel averaging 24 Mbps, or 28 Mbps for one channel in progressive mode. So, you do make a quality compromise in 3D relative to 2D in theory. What is important, and I think what Sony is saying, is that the regular channel is not half of 28 Mbps, and thus is comparable to a reasonable setting in 2D (17 Mbps). But is is definitely not the same as the 24 Mbps or 28 Mbps choice for 2D.
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post #290 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 03:14 PM
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The bitrate numbers are average bitrate. MVC Dependent view (right eye) takes about 50% of the Base view (left) eye: http://www.netblender.com/main/resou.../mvc-encoding/ . The equation is: x + .5x = 28Mbps, x = 18.67Mbps for the left eye and 9.33Mbps for the right eye (on average). Actual numbers will vary based on content.

For 2D, the TD10 supports up to 28Mbps (HD PS mode: 1920x1080@60p): http://store.sony.com/webapp/wcs/sto...specifications, the same as the Panasonic TM700 (2D HD: 1920x1080@60p), etc. That's the AVCHD recording spec max bitrate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD

If 2D content is needed, shooting in 2D mode will provide 60p ~28Mbps vs 60i ~18.67Mbps for the left eye when shooting in 3D mode. I don't have the camera with me at the moment, but if HD PS is also used for 24p, then 28Mbps 24p would provide the highest image quality per frame for 2D.
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post #291 of 315 Old 07-16-2011, 03:24 PM
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Mark the big problem with picking a number like that out of thin air is that it just has no meaning when the file is streaming variable bit rate. What you think Sony said is not what they said. I'll repeat- the 2D from a 3D output has the same quality and bit rate as the 2D itself and both are sourced from the left camera. 2D can be restricted to lower bitrates in the menus but not higher than the camcorder is capable of doing with the left camera.
If you shoot a black screen with no motion the variable bit rate will be at minimum while highly textured image at full brightness and lots of movement from one frame to the next can reach the peak capability for the left camera. The right camera is outputing identical to the left but that signal never get's saved for download. Instead it is used to determine the changes to the left camera image and the MVC codec saves a data file to reconstruct the right image in decoding. Data files are highly compressible and cannot be viewed by themselves. The left eye is not highly compressible since it is an image file but can be compressed to a minor degree. The combination of the two plus CBR audio makes for the full file size we see. Never is the exported file composed of 2 24 Mbit images as you suggested. If you think you looked at the right image then what you saw was something after decoding and expanded to the image file.
There is a whole lot going on here that you and others are trying to understand but frankly it doesn't matter. Kind of like understanding how the data is stored in your car's fuel injection system to mix air and gasoline in order to determine which car has the better fuel economy. All I need to know is that it produces the same quality and from what I have witnessed on a 110" screen there is no difference.

John: (2D mode) The TD10 will not permit 60p in highest quality, only 24p or 60i. FYI: I can set it but I get a warning message and then it reverts back to 24p or 60i in the FX mode ( 28Mbit). Set the camcorder to FH mode and you can then select 60p but the bit rate is reduced now to 17mbit. ( 3D mode) offers one setting and no choices- 60i and 28Mbit per specs.

The equation is a way over simplified approximation that describes the ratio of the right bit rate to the left camera bitrate in the MVC codec. It is not a proper math to calculate the mean bitrate for a VBR video stream. You could do a fixed point in time reading and get one number but then another point in time the number would be completely different. The only way to know the true bit rate for a video stream is to track it integrally over time and compute the total divided by the time length in seconds. I can see the bit rate for any given point in time but I cannot track it here over time with my monitor. The changes, even for a simple video is much too much to produce any meaningful number.
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post #292 of 315 Old 07-18-2011, 06:53 PM
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I love this forum and appreciate this technical discussion. I did not find the "read the manual" advise helpful partly because I do not have the camera and do not have the manual. All the rest, I admire and thank you all for. Lets remember that this is not simply for the benefit of the individual posing a question.
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post #293 of 315 Old 07-19-2011, 01:23 PM
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"John: (2D mode) The TD10 will not permit 60p in highest quality, only 24p or 60i. FYI: I can set it but I get a warning message and then it reverts back to 24p or 60i in the FX mode ( 28Mbit). Set the camcorder to FH mode and you can then select 60p but the bit rate is reduced now to 17mbit. ( 3D mode) offers one setting and no choices- 60i and 28Mbit per specs. "

Don, we keep correcting each other until we get it right. The statement you made above is not correct, or maybe it is just written obscurely. In 2D mode you can shoot at 108060p at 28Mbps. That is the highest quality AVCHD spec offered by any camcorder. It is PS mode on the camcorder.

In 3D mode, I have never seen the bitrate exceed 17Mbps from the view channel. Period. Shooting in 2D mode, 60p, I get above 23Mbps for equivalent scenes. So, it is simply not true that shooting in 3D gives you the same quality 2D as shooting in 2D and picking either 60p at 28Mbps 1080 or 60i at 24Mbps 1080. I was not picking numbers out of thin air, I look at the bitrate readouts, and understand vbr and compression.
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post #294 of 315 Old 07-19-2011, 04:02 PM
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Mark reading your post, I just had to check and you are corret. I must have been doing something wrong before because just now I was able to put the 2D mode in 1080 60p 28Mbs, Before, every time I tried to change it to that it reverted to 24p.

As for extracting my 2D program from the Left eye of a 3D production, I will continue to do it because my eyes can't see a difference between it on my VW90ES 110" screen and the best image I have shot in 2D by itself. I will say that my TD10 does not have the image quality to compete with my Best BluRay movie videos, but then why should I think the TD10 is as good as an IMAX camera? Mark you can continue to shoot your scenes twice to get a 2D version and a 3D version. None of my projects warrant that kind of planning and control. ( cost benefit ratio) Extraction of 2D from 3D has no detectible, visible disadvantage ( to my viewers) and has all kinds of convenience doing it in post. There are some additional camera options I would agree can come into play shooting in 2D but then if those are required because of a problem with 3D, ( such as white balance) why are we shooting 3D at all? The whole argument, in my opinion is academic and has no place in the real world of production.
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post #295 of 315 Old 07-19-2011, 04:23 PM
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Don, I agree with you completely - the TD10 is for 3D, and you can always get 2D videos out of your 3D videos, that is the beauty of MVC. They are not the best the camera can do in 2D, that is all, but I am certainly not arguing they are not high quality. In fact, what I really miss, if anything, is not being able to do 60p at 1080. I have not been tempted to do 2D shooting seperately from 3D just to take advantage of the extra bits. Maybe a three-camera rig is needed!

BTW, I have found the TD10 auto WB to be much better than that on my Panasonic TM900, which always required a manual setting indoors and would not adjust quickly when sun turned to shade outdoors. No problems so far with WB in many different settings on the TD10, which is good considering we cannot set it in 3D mode...

I am waiting for Sony's pocketable IMAX camera - the IMAX Bloggie.
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post #296 of 315 Old 07-19-2011, 05:51 PM
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You mean a Bloggie the size of our 3d Bloggie but weighing in at 238 pounds?
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post #297 of 315 Old 07-22-2011, 04:29 AM
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I got a bit fed-up with Vegas' deinterlacing performance and began to look for an alternative. A bit of googling found this, an OFX implementation of Yadif deinterlacing filter. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be playing nice with 3D subclips, causing rendering crashes. I've already informed the creator of the plug-in about the issues and supplied him with L/R streams for testing.

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #298 of 315 Old 07-22-2011, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

I got a bit fed-up with Vegas' deinterlacing performance and began to look for an alternative. A bit of googling found this, an OFX implementation of Yadif deinterlacing filter. Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be playing nice with 3D subclips, causing rendering crashes. I've already informed the creator of the plug-in about the issues and supplied him with L/R streams for testing.

Thanks. I'll try this on a couple of my most stubborn interlacing issues. If it works on unpaired clips, I assume it could be applied and the results re-imported into Vegas for pairing.

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post #299 of 315 Old 07-22-2011, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

If it works on unpaired clips, I assume it could be applied and the results re-imported into Vegas for pairing.

Good idea... which didn't occur to me

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post #300 of 315 Old 07-22-2011, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pteittinen View Post

Good idea... which didn't occur to me

This is very encouraging. Yadif seems to have cleaned up a clip that's given me fits for several weeks. It has 4 young kids jumping across a little stream in Shaw's Garden - lots of flailing arms and legs, and sudden movements, with interlace artifacts everywhere. That clip is now clean enough for me to use in my program. I imported the left/right files into Vegas, deinterlaced them with Yadif, and imported them back into the project. More experimenting could lead to even better results. Thanks for finding this. That's twice in as many weeks that you've come through for us.

Bravo!

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