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post #271 of 1097 Old 08-14-2011, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Most of the price is likely in the R&D recovery. Hope your guy can do better in price.

By the description on the web page, there are additional factors to consider they claim to resolve, such as exposure sync and shutter speed sync. I admit I hadn't thought of those issues but probably when out of sync, could be additional major detractors from a 3D stereographic rendering.

So building a 3D stereo bench for wide IA using a second TD10 could get more expensive than I thought-
Second TD10-- Budget for $1150
LANC sync-- Budget $435
2 AV/r to LANC jack adapters $50
Metal and other hardware-- $50
Total $1685

Sounds like a bargain to me.

My R&D expenses are zero since my friend loves doing this stuff for me.

Sitting here watching this eagle up close in 3D on my TV makes all the time and money I spend on this hobby well worth it.
Video samples coming soon.

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I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #272 of 1097 Old 08-14-2011, 06:58 PM - Thread Starter
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1 minute 3D eagle clip
Windows media format 3840 by 1080.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #273 of 1097 Old 08-18-2011, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Just in case anyone is interested, I uploaded a 6 minute 40 second 3D Blu-Ray ISO of a golden eagle up close.
golden eagle

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #274 of 1097 Old 08-18-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Just in case anyone is interested, I uploaded a 6 minute 40 second 3D Blu-Ray ISO of a golden eagle up close.
golden eagle


That is ironical. I just returned from a Rotary Club meeting where the guest speaker was from our local bird rescue organization. One of the things I learned was that the Golden Eagle is actually a much more noble bird than the Bald Eagle. Your photographed Golden Eagle goes after live prey while the Bald Eagle is a scavenger and will look for an easy meal first.
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post #275 of 1097 Old 08-18-2011, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I never would have equated the word "noble" with being eaten alive.
I didn't like the way the eagle was eying my dachshund.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #276 of 1097 Old 08-20-2011, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been having a great time shooting the local sailboat races in 3D the past few weeks. My latest rig is demonstrated in this YouTube 3D video

It's fun, exciting and even, gulp; dangerous work.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #277 of 1097 Old 08-21-2011, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a clip from my growing library of 3D sailboat footage.
Shot from my boat using my previously mentioned gyro stabilized custom 3D rig.
3D sailboat race

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #278 of 1097 Old 08-23-2011, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Just in case anyone is interested, I uploaded a 6 minute 40 second 3D Blu-Ray ISO of a golden eagle up close.
golden eagle

Tried today to access this and your previous eagle links. Got an error message. Am I too late?

"With Liberty, HDTV and Justice for all."
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post #279 of 1097 Old 08-24-2011, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Richard Adams View Post

Tried today to access this and your previous eagle links. Got an error message. Am I too late?

Must have deleted them while house cleaning.
I restored them.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #280 of 1097 Old 08-24-2011, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I just returned from my weekly video shoot of sailboats on Lake Superior and this time I used the JVC GS-TD1 and the results were even worse then with the Sony that I tried last Saturday.
I think I'm going to sell both my Sonys and my JVC (can't sell my wife's)
From now on I'm sticking to dual camera 3D.

I'm convinced that my eyesight is very unusual in that I require a lot more parallax to see in 3D then the average person.

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post #281 of 1097 Old 08-24-2011, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

I just returned from my weekly video shoot of sailboats on Lake Superior and this time I used the JVC GS-TD1 and the results were even worse then with the Sony that I tried last Saturday.
I think I'm going to sell both my Sonys and my JVC (can't sell my wife's)
From now on I'm sticking to dual camera 3D.

I'm convinced that my eyesight is very unusual in that I require a lot more parallax to see in 3D then the average person.

I think that's probably wise for you, Frank. You're too used to the 3D you can get with your dual Canon's ever to be truly satisfied with the results from either the JVC or the Sony. I own the JVC and I still enjoy the results you get more than mine.

I'm hoping the JVC stereo base extender closes the gap a bit, but I believe I'd be happier with a dual camera config, too. Right now, though (at my level) it's just a little too much of a hassle to consider. Also, I'm extremely happy with the image quality of the JVC. For me, the acid test is whether the images take me back to the place where they were shot. So far anyway, the TD1 images do just that. Despite how things may look, Shaw's Garden is quite an intimate place, with lots of small features that often tend to look much larger than they are - at least the way I shoot them. The narrow interaxial often works to my advantage in some fairly tight confines. I think the stereo base extender might just give me the extra interaxial I need to get some shots I've given up on until now.

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post #282 of 1097 Old 08-24-2011, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

I think that's probably wise for you, Frank. You're too used to the 3D you can get with your dual Canon's ever to be truly satisfied with the results from either the JVC or the Sony. I own the JVC and I still enjoy the results you get more than mine.

I'm hoping the JVC stereo base extender closes the gap a bit, but I believe I'd be happier with a dual camera config, too. Right now, though (at my level) it's just a little too much of a hassle to consider. Also, I'm extremely happy with the image quality of the JVC. For me, the acid test is whether the images take me back to the place where they were shot. So far anyway, the TD1 images do just that. Despite how things may look, Shaw's Garden is quite an intimate place, with lots of small features that often tend to look much larger than they are - at least the way I shoot them. The narrow interaxial often works to my advantage in some fairly tight confines. I think the stereo base extender might just give me the extra interaxial I need to get some shots I've given up on until now.

When I looked at the clips of the sailboats I had taken with the JVC I kept trying to turn the 3D on and then realized it was on and I couldn't tell.
Not good... The thing is, I had tried to get really close to them precisely because of the small IA and it still wasn't enough.

I agree that the image quality from the JVC is quite good it's just that 2.0625D instead of 3.00D doesn't quite get it for me.

When are you supposed to get that stereo base extender?

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post #283 of 1097 Old 08-24-2011, 08:02 PM
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Frank- Agree with Joe. Your goals are so far removed from the design of the JVC and Sony. You are happiest when you are working with the bench and dual cams shooting distant subjects. You should consider handing down one or more of the Sony's or JVC to your family as I'm sure they would find the convenience of a simple compact camcorder much more suitable for shooting your grandchildren. I gave my daughter and son -n-law a High def camcorder and they have made lots of nice videos and many still pictures we have enjoyed. I also have a small DVCAM camcorder that sits here collecting dust I have decided to give my nephew who is only 15 but has taken up video and photography. In this way they will bring me far more return than any ebay sale.

I am sorry you feel let down on the Sony but I want to say a huge thank you for the work you have done. I am planning to create the bench here ( already have the hardware) and will practice with it locally to get ready for some shooting in the desert next year. As far as I'm concerned, your work has been a big inspiration for me.
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post #284 of 1097 Old 08-24-2011, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

When I looked at the clips of the sailboats I had taken with the JVC I kept trying to turn the 3D on and then realized it was on and I couldn't tell.
Not good... The thing is, I had tried to get really close to them precisely because of the small IA and it still wasn't enough.

I agree that the image quality from the JVC is quite good it's just that 2.0625D instead of 3.00D doesn't quite get it for me.

When are you supposed to get that stereo base extender?

They're waiting for mirrors from the supplier. They're supposed to be in any time now, and I'm top of the list.

I think I understand what you may be going through in not being able to see 3D as well as you'd like. My own stereo vision doesn't seem to be quite as good as it used to be (when I was in my 20's - 30's). My left eye is weaker than the right (always has been), but the sense of depth doesn't seem to be quite as acute. I'm long overdue for new glasses, so I'm hoping it improves it. I actually believe it will.

Still, even with weaker vision, I suspect my stereo vision may be better than a lot of people. My eyes are pretty wide set (a bit over 3"), and I think the greater separation might provide me more satisfying 3D. That's just my notion - no facts to back it up. But, I often wonder if the anti-3D zealots see the world differently than I do. My world in 3D is such a breathtakingly beautiful place, I find it extremely hard to understand why some people seem to hate it so much, or why they are so convinced that 3D has no intrinsic value over 2D. Sometimes, I close one eye and try to imagine what it would be like to perceive the world only that way. The prospect freaks me out!!!

I wouldn't give up sound in movies; I wouldn't give up color; I wouldn't give up HD; and, there's no way I'll ever give up 3D. Fortunately, I don't have to. I can make my own.

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post #285 of 1097 Old 08-24-2011, 11:36 PM
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Is there a stereo base extender also for the Sony TD10?

Beside the great rigs of Frank (great!).

EDIT: I can answer the question by myself, had some emails with Ken from cyclopital3d. They plan to offer also a stereo base extenter for the Sony TD10, but it is not available now - but soon as he wrote.

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post #286 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 08:55 AM
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Don't mean to rain on another's invention as from that perspective it is quite an interesting and creative design.

But, having looked at it, the advantage of 3D improvement, vs. the cost and the ergonomics, I'll take the twin camera approach first. Lots more creative flexibility, just a tad more expensive and requires more care in setup. If the device came in at under $300 then I would reconsider. Time will tell when we do an A/B to see what the value really is.
Please understand, I'm not interested in a slight improvement for shooting scenes 15-50 ft away, I'm looking for 3D vs flat for 1000 plus yards to 5 miles. Likely to be achieved with haze filters and 2-4 ft. IO separation.
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post #287 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Don't mean to rain on another's invention as from that perspective it is quite an interesting and creative design.

But, having looked at it, the advantage of 3D improvement, vs. the cost and the ergonomics, I'll take the twin camera approach first. Lots more creative flexibility, just a tad more expensive and requires more care in setup. If the device came in at under $300 then I would reconsider. Time will tell when we do an A/B to see what the value really is.
Please understand, I'm not interested in a slight improvement for shooting scenes 15-50 ft away, I'm looking for 3D vs flat for 1000 plus yards to 5 miles. Likely to be achieved with haze filters and 2-4 ft. IO separation.

Let's see if I have this right.....
31 millimeter interaxial is just fine up to 1000 yards.
Minimum of 2 feet after that?

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post #288 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 09:14 AM
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No, 31mm IA is fine for 2ft to 20 ft scenes.

I said "I'm not interested in the 3D work of 15-50 ft." But, if I needed to do that, the bench could be set for 4"-6" IA too. Hey, this is your baby. Almost all my shooting is in a room and/ or about 10-20 ft subject distance with background 30-300 ft. I don't care much about the out of focus background as long as the subjects in the foreground exhibit nice comfortable 3D. THEN, there are those special occasions I want to shoot those panoramic scenes at great distance. The bench is the only way to do that, right?
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post #289 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

No, 31mm IA is fine for 2ft to 20 ft scenes.

I said "I'm not interested in the 3D work of 15-50 ft." But, if I needed to do that, the bench could be set for 4"-6" IA too. Hey, this is your baby. Almost all my shooting is in a room and/ or about 10-20 ft subject distance with background 30-300 ft. I don't care much about the out of focus background as long as the subjects in the foreground exhibit nice comfortable 3D. THEN, there are those special occasions I want to shoot those panoramic scenes at great distance. The bench is the only way to do that, right?

I use a interaxial distance of around 3" for most everything when zoomed out fully and increase the interaxial to compensate for the zoom.
If I was trying to shoot a mountain range and get some visible 3D effect I would have to live with the dwarfism effect which probably would be unacceptable as it would make the mountain range appear smaller then it really is.
I've shot some very interesting wide IA 3D video that makes people look like they're Lilliputians. Fun to watch though.

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post #290 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 01:29 PM
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Brought a chuckle to me. This is funny- If I was shooting a mountain range I would welcome it being smaller than it really is. LOL! My home theater screen is big but not actual size of a mountain range. . People who appear bigger than actual size actually looks creepy. But, my goal for the dual cam system is the rock formations of a canyon like Bryce fantasyland. There are some 3D stills that are quite nice already on the internet I've been looking at.

My 15 year old nephew is currently fascinated with panorama photography and has some really warped wraps. I certainly don't want that effect. Looks like the image is painted on a small sphere.
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post #291 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 01:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Brought a chuckle to me. This is funny- If I was shooting a mountain range I would welcome it being smaller than it really is. LOL! My home theater screen is big but not actual size of a mountain range. . People who appear bigger than actual size actually looks creepy. But, my goal for the dual cam system is the rock formations of a canyon like Bryce fantasyland. There are some 3D stills that are quite nice already on the internet I've been looking at.

My 15 year old nephew is currently fascinated with panorama photography and has some really warped wraps. I certainly don't want that effect. Looks like the image is painted on a small sphere.

I put a bunch of 3D canyon pictures taken by my daughter with my FUJI W3 on the WEB here.
The three inch interaxial of the FUJI does a nice job for these don't you think?

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post #292 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Brought a chuckle to me. This is funny- If I was shooting a mountain range I would welcome it being smaller than it really is. LOL! My home theater screen is big but not actual size of a mountain range. .

You do realize that shooting the Grand Canyon from a long distance with a wide interaxial will make it look like the land of the Lilliputians right?
I'd love to see it that way but I wouldn't want to try to explain why it looks that way to others.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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post #293 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
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I put a bunch of 3D canyon pictures taken by my daughter with my FUJI W3 on the WEB here.
The three inch interaxial of the FUJI does a nice job for these don't you think?


Some of those look fantastic. I've been to Red Rock Canyon too which is close to Bryce. Bryce has some better formations, however. #265 is like I was thinking as far as simple mountain ranges are concerned.

I think you may be confused as to what I have in mind. I don't plan to have anything in the foreground, just a large area of scenery. Most of the distant shots just barely offer any 3D but better than the little 30 mm IA cameras.

So, what you're suggesting is that I may be able to get away with a bench that is no longer than 15" or so for my longest distant shots. I am hoping to squeeze everything in a regular suitcase so a 15 inch bench should work fine. I need to find a place around here where I can experiment.
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post #294 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Some of those look fantastic. I've been to Red Rock Canyon too which is close to Bryce. Bryce has some better formations, however. #265 is like I was thinking as far as simple mountain ranges are concerned.

I think you may be confused as to what I have in mind. I don't plan to have anything in the foreground, just a large area of scenery. Most of the distant shots just barely offer any 3D but better than the little 30 mm IA cameras.

So, what you're suggesting is that I may be able to get away with a bench that is no longer than 15" or so for my longest distant shots. I am hoping to squeeze everything in a regular suitcase so a 15 inch bench should work fine. I need to find a place around here where I can experiment.

If you are planning on using the maximum zoom on distant shots at all then a 15 inch max bench probably won't quite do it. You might be happy with the results though. I probably would use a 30 inch bench for this kind of shot.

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post #295 of 1097 Old 08-25-2011, 05:39 PM
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Based on samples taken with the stereo base extender for the Fuji W3, I think I'll be pleased with the images created by the one for the JVC. It'll probably offer some surprises, hopefully more good than bad. Only time will tell. I'm not expecting the creative flexibility offered by a dual camera rig, but the cost seems quite reasonable if it can come close to doing what I think it will do. Still waiting.

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post #296 of 1097 Old 08-26-2011, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Based on samples taken with the stereo base extender for the Fuji W3, I think I'll be pleased with the images created by the one for the JVC. It'll probably offer some surprises, hopefully more good than bad. Only time will tell. I'm not expecting the creative flexibility offered by a dual camera rig, but the cost seems quite reasonable if it can come close to doing what I think it will do. Still waiting.

One thing that the base extender will offer s a similar work flow, if that is important.

Frank. I plan to start with your recommendation of 30" and then cut it down to what is needed for my shooting. I'll have to do some test shooting. A 20" bench would be ideal for transport.
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post #297 of 1097 Old 08-26-2011, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Going to try to shoot video of fireworks tonight.
It's the opening of the Dragon Boat Festival.





Just got finished aligning all the cameras.
Hoping I can make 3D from any combination of the cameras.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
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post #298 of 1097 Old 08-28-2011, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I took the rig shown above in my boat over to the local Dragon Boat Festival and set it on the shore and shot lots of 3D video of the races.
720P 3D Blu-Ray ISO of race.
3D YouTube version
I played this in 3D on my PS3 and my wife and I enjoyed it.
For fun, I then played a race shot with my Sony HDR-TD10 which was mounted between the twin Canons.
She thought the 3D was pretty good from the Sony. I told her it looked more like 2.125D to me.
I explained that the Sony 3D video has a built in negative parallax and I then used Stereoscopic Player to reduce the positive parallax and interestingly she then didn't think it looked 3D at all and then proceeded to remove her 3D glasses and said it looked better.
True story....
After that happened I went back and compared some video from the JVC GS-TD1 to the Sony HDR-TD10 and realized that the JVC has NO built in positive parallax like the Sony does.

Never really noticed that before for some reason.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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post #299 of 1097 Old 08-28-2011, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

I took the rig shown above in my boat over to the local Dragon Boat Festival and set it on the shore and shot lots of 3D video of the races.
720P 3D Blu-Ray ISO of race.
3D YouTube version
I played this in 3D on my PS3 and my wife and I enjoyed it.
For fun, I then played a race shot with my Sony HDR-TD10 which was mounted between the twin Canons.
She thought the 3D was pretty good from the Sony. I told her it looked more like 2.125D to me.
I explained that the Sony 3D video has a built in negative parallax and I then used Stereoscopic Player to reduce the negative parallax and interestingly she then didn't think it looked 3D at all and then proceeded to remove her 3D glasses and said it looked better.
True story....
After that happened I went back and compared some video from the JVC GS-TD1 to the Sony HDR-TD10 and realized that the JVC has NO built in negative parallax like the Sony does.

Never really noticed that before for some reason.

I want to make sure I'm understanding how you're using the term "negative parallax." My understanding is that it refers to images that appear in front of the screen. I would assume, though, that a boat race shot from the shore with the Sony would appear to have depth into the screen, but that objects would not appear to be popping out of the screen. Am I misunderstanding how that works on the Sony? I've never shot with one. I haven't downloaded the clips yet.

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post #300 of 1097 Old 08-28-2011, 07:44 PM
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I recorded a few quick test shots today with the stereo base extender I ordered from Cyclopital. The bad news is that the right frame is a good 5-6% higher than the left, so it's misaligned vertically. I'm sure it's going to have to go back. I kept getting an error message when shooting that said I needed to switch to 2D mode. It was seeing the vertical misalignment and knew the 3D would not converge properly. Despite the distortion, my eyes could bring the images together. The device works (or will, when they correct the problem).

It actually does just what I hoped it would. The increased sense of depth is exactly what I've been missing with many of my shots. It produces 3D images that are more natural looking and much more satisfying. In order not to see the edges of the extender, I have to zoom in to the equivalent of about 65mm (around 50-58mm is considered "normal" - what the naked eye sees). That's slightly into the tele range, about 20% toward 2x zoom. That's a limitation I expected but which nonetheless is disappointing. Still, the benefit far outweighs the downside. It would be great to have both wide angle and a wider IA at the same time, but the device will allow me to get certain kinds of shots I simply couldn't get without it.

Frank, this device makes me remember vividly the extraordinary difference I saw with those first shots you posted in the JVC thread - where you had similar footage from the JVC and your dual Canon rig. I go back and watch those every once in a while to remind myself of what I'm missing with my JVC. The sbe fixes quite a bit of that "something's-not-quite-right" feeling in the pit of my stomach. As a matter of fact, it gets me a lot closer than I was afraid it might. My worst fear was that the loss of wide angle might largely neutralize the benefit of the wider IA. From my test shots, though, I don't think that's going to be the case. The wider IA more than makes up for it.

Anyway, now I'm even more excited to get a properly aligned unit so I can start to gather some of the shots I want.

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