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post #361 of 1097 Old 09-05-2011, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Frank, I agree with that in part. For example, Making a Bloggie with the lenses on opposite sides rather than 3/4" IA could give the Bloggie 3D a range of 2' to 30 ft as opposed to 6" to 12 ft.

However, in the case of the Sony and JVC, expanding the IA would compromise the compactness of the camcorder. I certainly would not desire that.

I can't wait until Tuesday when my second TD 10 arrives. I'll send you a photo of the completed bench with the two mounted when it arrives. Then I start experimenting and learning the new work flow.

I have a completely second use for this system that should blow you away if I can get it to work. It will be original and unique. There is a second part that I want to do with this new use but I don't have the camcorders in my arsenal to test that part of it. If I get the first part working, I will PM you the details on what I would like you to try. I will know shortly after the Lanc sync arrives. Your part of the test will require two Lanc Sync boxes which I think you have, so don't sell them yet.

I'm intrigued. I'm also not easily blown away.

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post #362 of 1097 Old 09-05-2011, 11:02 AM
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Here's a hint- The alignment controls ( bench set screws) play an important part in this and I had to design my bench with additional travel for each camera to make this work. I also spent some time today searching the internet and find nobody doing this.
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post #363 of 1097 Old 09-05-2011, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Here's a hint- The alignment controls ( bench set screws) play an important part in this and I had to design my bench with additional travel for each camera to make this work. I also spent some time today searching the internet and find nobody doing this.

Sounds like you're planning on shooting superwide 2D. If that's the case, why not a third camera and go Cinerama?

Or perhaps SuperWide 3D?

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post #364 of 1097 Old 09-05-2011, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Sounds like you're planning on shooting superwide 2D. If that's the case, why not a third camera and go Cinerama?

Or perhaps SuperWide 3D?

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post #365 of 1097 Old 09-08-2011, 03:42 PM
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Spent most of the day playing with the twin TD10 cams on the bench.

Managed to get two measured tests done and one finalized with the TD10's in 2D mode. I did some varied ranges of 10' 30' 100' 200' and 500' distance. With the 8" IA I could get excellent 3D separation of objects out to beyond 200' but not much beyond 500' I was shooting from the back yard through cuts in the trees. The close up objects were very poor with almost ghost like transparency at 10' but fairly decent at 50' and beyond.

What was very impressive is the range of 100' to 500' as compared to using the TD10 in 3D mode for those same distances that looked almost flat.

The two camcorders were set for full auto in 2D mode and shooting full wide angle. However, I used the grid cross hairs and full zoom at object at 100ft away to do my physical calibration and alignment. I ran into one snag at full telephoto that I needed some brass shims to correct for this test. I am now modifying the bench cam mounts with a rear set screw to fix this. The indoor 10 ft calibration never saw this error but at 100 ft and full telephoto it was out nearly 1/4" in the screen!

Another thing that either I missed in the class on this or it was never covered was that the full high quality PS mode in 2D of the TD10 can not be used for pair as stereoscopic 3D because the only file formats allowed seem to be avi's and AVC. I think the manual says MOV as well. So, I had to render the test shots down to 1080 24p x 1920 AVC file to pair and complete the evaluation.
Frank- what files format and camera settings did you use in your twin TD10 tests?

I do not have the Lanc synchronizer yet so what I did was just start both cams together by hand ( optical stabilizer off ) and then walked in front of the rig with a clap board and later synced with that reference. I shot 3 minutes and it stayed pretty well throughout. I think the camera's auto adjustment speeds may be an issue so maybe once both cams are on target, they might better be switched to manual so there is no drifting by one cam vs. the other.

I'm going to work with the 16" IA files tomorrow to see what they look like. But, based on the results of the 8" I may need to move to a larger 3D distance location like you did on the lake, Frank. My bench allows for up to 24" IA. I can always cut another longer but wanted to keep this rig under 28" long to fit in my suitcase for travel convenience.
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post #366 of 1097 Old 09-08-2011, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Spent most of the day playing with the twin TD10 cams on the bench.

Managed to get two measured tests done and one finalized with the TD10's in 2D mode. I did some varied ranges of 10' 30' 100' 200' and 500' distance. With the 8" IA I could get excellent 3D separation of objects out to beyond 200' but not much beyond 500' I was shooting from the back yard through cuts in the trees. The close up objects were very poor with almost ghost like transparency at 10' but fairly decent at 50' and beyond.

What was very impressive is the range of 100' to 500' as compared to using the TD10 in 3D mode for those same distances that looked almost flat.

The two camcorders were set for full auto in 2D mode and shooting full wide angle. However, I used the grid cross hairs and full zoom at object at 100ft away to do my physical calibration and alignment. I ran into one snag at full telephoto that I needed some brass shims to correct for this test. I am now modifying the bench cam mounts with a rear set screw to fix this. The indoor 10 ft calibration never saw this error but at 100 ft and full telephoto it was out nearly 1/4" in the screen!

Another thing that either I missed in the class on this or it was never covered was that the full high quality PS mode in 2D of the TD10 can not be used for pair as stereoscopic 3D because the only file formats allowed seem to be avi's and AVC. I think the manual says MOV as well. So, I had to render the test shots down to 1080 24p x 1920 AVC file to pair and complete the evaluation.
Frank- what files format and camera settings did you use in your twin TD10 tests?

I do not have the Lanc synchronizer yet so what I did was just start both cams together by hand ( optical stabilizer off ) and then walked in front of the rig with a clap board and later synced with that reference. I shot 3 minutes and it stayed pretty well throughout. I think the camera's auto adjustment speeds may be an issue so maybe once both cams are on target, they might better be switched to manual so there is no drifting by one cam vs. the other.

I'm going to work with the 16" IA files tomorrow to see what they look like. But, based on the results of the 8" I may need to move to a larger 3D distance location like you did on the lake, Frank. My bench allows for up to 24" IA. I can always cut another longer but wanted to keep this rig under 28" long to fit in my suitcase for travel convenience.

Congratulations! Welcome to the wide IA club, Don Landis!!
I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with .
Looks like you tapped 10-32 holes at precise distances along your square tubing. A different approach then mine.

I never used 2D mode on my TD10s when I had both on the bench. I ran the 3D MVC outputs through MVC to AVI and output them as Matrox AVI files at 150mbps.

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post #367 of 1097 Old 09-08-2011, 08:28 PM
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Rendering the m2ts to avc and then pairing worked OK but I will check out shooting in HD FH mode tomorrow, so as to avoid the additional rendering step tomorrow. I think the render lost of quality but won't know until I try it both ways. I really want to avoid using 3D mode in the camera. In 2D mode I have many more options, both on files as well as how the camera works.

After lots of reading and study, I decided to make the bench much simpler and go with 2" increments for the IA. If I find it necessary, I can add additional holes and make it on 1" centers. I don't think that will be necessary.

Have you seen the grid lines that can be turned on in 2D mode? These make it really easy to dial in the physical calibration with the two black knobs. Then the center one locks it down. I'll have a third black knob underneath that adjusts the elevation as I discovered there was more error in vertical disparity than I originally thought.

I don't have a milling machine but do have a large drill press with a nice precise cross slide vice. I can stay right on the mark with that and use the drill press, hand cranked to tap the holes.
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post #368 of 1097 Old 09-08-2011, 09:01 PM
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Here's two quick anaglyphs, pretty much the same scene from same camera position. Both in full wide. One is of the 8" IA and the second is one of the TD10's in 3D mode.

It is quite obvious the 8" IA yields lots of negative parallax while not sacrificing distant 3D. The bush with the flowers is about 35 ft away. In the TD10 everything is in positive parallax well behind the screen plane. The 8" IA also preserves the far off z axis separation too.

The originals are 1080 x 1920 of course but AVS made me reduce the size.
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post #369 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Here's two quick anaglyphs, pretty much the same scene from same camera position. Both in full wide. One is of the 8" IA and the second is one of the TD10's in 3D mode.

It is quite obvious the 8" IA yields lots of negative parallax while not sacrificing distant 3D. The bush with the flowers is about 35 ft away. In the TD10 everything is in positive parallax well behind the screen plane. The 8" IA also preserves the far off z axis separation too.

The originals are 1080 x 1920 of course but AVS made me reduce the size.

If you had set the TD10 to not automatically add the positive parallax it would look very close to a 2D image I think.

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post #370 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey Don, how are you mounting your TD10s?
I standardized on Manfrotto 384 quick change dovetails.
I modified the dovetail adapter that mounts to the camera with four 6-32 set screws that I use to tweak the alignment and fit with the various cameras.
All of my cameras,camcorders have this modification which works extremely well as I can take any camcorder and switch it between various devices and the alignment is always perfect.
This is especially important with my Canon camcorders as the their base is not even close to being flat.

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post #371 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
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If you had set the TD10 to not automatically add the positive parallax it would look very close to a 2D image I think.

I'm not sure I understand this.


Anyway- Here is the IA 16" image of about the same shooting position and angle. As expected the 16" made the foremost bush a little more ghost like as I think I'm nearing the no-go zone for cameras to subject in the super wide IA. However. I'm seeing quite a bit better separation in the distant objects ( trees) at nearly 100 ft. It's harder to see on the anaglyph but the Vizio looks fantastic ( IMO)

I'll get you a picture soon of the camera mount to the bench. I use the dove tail manfrotto quick disconnect at the center to mount the bench to the tripod head.

Frank- I decided to keep the cameras standard on mounting and just eyeball the alignment although my machining is fairly squared up. Still, I rely on the black knobs to do the actual alignment using the cameras at full telephoto, the grid cross hairs, and a distant target at about 100 ft.

I have everything apart now so I'll shoot come closeups for you to see how my simple mounts are designed.

Later...

edit- Fixed the anaglyph image.
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post #372 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I'm not sure I understand this.

Supply the image as a side by side jpeg and I can demonstrate what I mean.

Quote:


Anyway- Here is the IA 16" image of about the same shooting position and angle. As expected the 16" made the foremost bush a little more ghost like as I think I'm nearing the no-go zone for cameras to subject in the super wide IA. However. I'm seeing quite a bit better separation in the distant objects ( trees) at nearly 100 ft. It's harder to see on the anaglyph but the Vizio looks fantastic ( IMO)

I'll get you a picture soon of the camera mount to the bench. I use the dove tail manfrotto quick disconnect at the center to mount the bench to the tripod head.

Frank- I decided to keep the cameras standard on mounting and just eyeball the alignment although my machining is fairly squared up. Still, I rely on the black knobs to do the actual alignment using the cameras at full telephoto, the grid cross hairs, and a distant target at about 100 ft.

I have everything apart now so I'll shoot come closeups for you to see how my simple mounts are designed.

Later...

That anaglyph is reversed. I had to wear my anaglyph glasses upside down to view it.
If you would supply these images as side by side jpegs I could manipulate the parallax and see if it helps.
For manipulating the parallax values I use programs like Stereo Photo Maker and Stereoscopic Player and of course Vegas.

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post #373 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 09:55 AM
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Did you find the IA 16 reversed and the IA 8 OK? When I just grabbed that I thought it was reversed. Should have checked. I think I had my right image on top when I paired them for the IA 16. Sorry.

PS- I did run the auto correct on the paired images. It works pretty slick. I'm very happy so far with the results, and the clap board is working great for sync.

Here are the design details. Easier to show you the pictures than to explain.

Have to leave for a bit to run some errands but I'll pull some SBS's later.
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post #374 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Did you find the IA 16 reversed and the IA 8 OK? When I just grabbed that I thought it was reversed. Should have checked. I think I had my right image on top when I paired them for the IA 16. Sorry.

PS- I did run the auto correct on the paired images. It works pretty slick. I'm very happy so far with the results, and the clap board is working great for sync.

Here are the design details. Easier to show you the pictures than to explain.

Have to leave for a bit to run some errands but I'll pull some SBS's later.

The IA 8 was fine, it was just the 16 that was reversed.
Looking good, Don.
You might want to consider putting some Manfrottos between the cameras and the aluminum mount. Yeah, I know, more dollars but it helps soooooo much.

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post #375 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a picture of my latest 3D video acquisition toy.



It's hard to tell from this picture but the cameras are mounted on a SteadyCam Merlin which is shown folded up.

I am very happy with the way it works.
The cameras are dual Canon HF-M32s attached via quick change Manfrotto dovetails, the same ones on all my other rigs.
It takes all of one minute to remove them from this rig and put them on my gyro stabilized rig or my other benches.

On this unit the IA is fixed at 3 inches which I find works well for almost all situations.

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post #376 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank View Post

Here is a picture of my latest 3D video acquisition toy.



It's hard to tell from this picture but the cameras are mounted on a SteadyCam Merlin which is shown folded up.

I am very happy with the way it works.
The cameras are dual Canon HF-M32s attached via quick change Manfrotto dovetails, the same ones on all my other rigs.
It takes all of one minute to remove them from this rig and put them on my gyro stabilized rig or my other benches.

On this unit the IA is fixed at 3 inches which I find works well for almost all situations.

Very cool, Frank. I'll look forward to seeing some footage shot with this setup.

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post #377 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Here's two quick anaglyphs, pretty much the same scene from same camera position. Both in full wide. One is of the 8" IA and the second is one of the TD10's in 3D mode.

It is quite obvious the 8" IA yields lots of negative parallax while not sacrificing distant 3D. The bush with the flowers is about 35 ft away. In the TD10 everything is in positive parallax well behind the screen plane. The 8" IA also preserves the far off z axis separation too.

The originals are 1080 x 1920 of course but AVS made me reduce the size.

Excellent results, Don. I'm even more tempted to play in the dual camera sandbox with you and Frank, but I'm going to wait until I get the stereo base extender back from Cyclopital. I need to see how the JVC will perform with a stereo base of 5.5".

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post #378 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Joseph Clark View Post

Very cool, Frank. I'll look forward to seeing some footage shot with this setup.

Be careful what you ask for.....
1st Merlin test.

I shot a lot of 3D video with it recently and my favorite is walking on the Duluth lift bridge . I'll show you that one soon.

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post #379 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 11:38 AM
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I fixed the flipped image upload in the post now. Using undo's I saw that somewhere I had checked a swap left and right which caused the problem.

Joe- if you get 5.5 IA that should get you some good 3D between 10 ft and 75 ft. On my current bench, I can get it down to 6" but any smaller and I can't open the monitor to calibrate the alignment. But, I built this for 1000 ft and greater 3D shooting. However, I do like what I saw with the 8" IA and may make a dedicated 8" bench just for projects like fireworks.

Frank- Can you tell me how long the Lanc cables are on the Lanc Shepherd? The Manfrotto adapter cables I bought are only 7" and I'm worried that the cables will be too short to reach the cameras when spread to 24" IA.

Frank- I don't understand what the advantage of adding "Manfrottos" between the camcorders and my bracket will do for me. The bracket is quick to install now and adding additional metal seems to me is just adding more weight and assembly time. To mount my cameras requires using two screws, the 1/4-20 hex head and the white knob lock down. I spent quite a bit of time working on simplifying the design so I can quickly set it up and calibrate it in the field with minimum effort. Show me there is an easier way.
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post #380 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Frank- Can you tell me how long the Lanc cables are on the Lanc Shepherd? The Manfrotto adapter cables I bought are only 7" and I'm worried that the cables will be too short to reach the cameras when spread to 24" IA.

Around 16 inches.

Quote:


Frank- I don't understand what the advantage of adding "Manfrottos" between the camcorders and my bracket will do for me. The bracket is quick to install now and adding additional metal seems to me is just adding more weight and assembly time. To mount my cameras requires using two screws, the 1/4-20 hex head and the white knob lock down. I spent quite a bit of time working on simplifying the design so I can quickly set it up and calibrate it in the field with minimum effort. Show me there is an easier way.

Your way may be just fine for you.
I like the fact that I can toss my cameras in my bag and just click them in place when I'm out in the field and I'm ready to go.
No tools necessary.

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post #381 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 01:52 PM
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16" cable length on the Lanc Shepherd. Thanks that should be perfect!

On the Manfrotto mounts- do you have a link or model number I can check out?
I may investigate further on your idea. I was trying to achieve a quick connect and not have to do field calibration but couldn't find anything I liked ( size weight and price). Now that I have had some more time testing this I see the alignment isn't as critical and can use Sony Vegas Auto calibrate. That works very well. I recall in class thinking that maybe the test files they had already to go may have been special to demo and when I got to it my files would be more trouble. Apparently not.

Here are your requested SBS Full files. ( Had to reduce to 1280 wide for AVS. ) If that doesn't work for you I can upload the full res ones to my web server.

TD10; IA8 inch; and IA 16"
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post #382 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Don, I took your side by side jpeg of the 3D image from the TD-10 and reduced the parallax and created an adjusted anaglyph to try to illustrate my point and here it is:



Now I have to look close to realize it's a 3D anaglyph.

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post #383 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 02:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

On the Manfrotto mounts- do you have a link or model number I can check out?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ail_Quick.html

I love these things and the accuracy and repeatability is excellent.

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post #384 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
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http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...ail_Quick.html

I love these things and the accuracy and repeatability is excellent.

Thanks. What do you think of this as a lower cost alternative?-

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...tem_Quick.html
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post #385 of 1097 Old 09-09-2011, 04:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Thanks. What do you think of this as a lower cost alternative?-

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...tem_Quick.html

Can't comment on it as I haven't tested it for accuracy and repeatability.

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post #386 of 1097 Old 09-10-2011, 07:07 AM
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The main complaint I have with Manfrotto is they have too many different designs for these quick connect plates. I know of 7 different ones in this camcorder size class alone! ( the size class that uses the single 1/4-20 screw with locating pin) When it comes to Sony pro camera plates. they have 1 that fits all their cameras and camcorders. Even some other brands have adopted the Sony plate for their broadcast cams. Pretty nice considering the camera has to have its base match as there is no plate, just the adapter that mounts to the tripod.
So, if I add three of these manfrotto quick connects to my twin bench I would also need to add one to my monopod and one to my tripod head so I can move from one platform support to another. Too bad Manfrotto doesn't make a base that matches my tripod head so one plate mounted to the camera could fit into several support systems. The purchase count is 4 adapters and one additional camera plate for the SR12. Cost becomes a factor of 4+ quickly.
Decision- I'll stick to the 1/4-20 screw for now. (until field testing proves too much trouble.)
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post #387 of 1097 Old 09-10-2011, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

The main complaint I have with Manfrotto is they have too many different designs for these quick connect plates. I know of 7 different ones in this camcorder size class alone! ( the size class that uses the single 1/4-20 screw with locating pin) When it comes to Sony pro camera plates. they have 1 that fits all their cameras and camcorders. Even some other brands have adopted the Sony plate for their broadcast cams. Pretty nice considering the camera has to have its base match as there is no plate, just the adapter that mounts to the tripod.
So, if I add three of these manfrotto quick connects to my twin bench I would also need to add one to my monopod and one to my tripod head so I can move from one platform support to another. Too bad Manfrotto doesn't make a base that matches my tripod head so one plate mounted to the camera could fit into several support systems. The purchase count is 4 adapters and one additional camera plate for the SR12. Cost becomes a factor of 4+ quickly.
Decision- I'll stick to the 1/4-20 screw for now. (until field testing proves too much trouble.)

I'm sure you'll make out fine.
I modified my Manfrotto 384s considerably anyway.
For the non tripod mounts, I removed the 3/8-16 to 1/4-20 inserts from the base and countersunk the top with a large 82 degree countersink so I could attach them from the top with a 1/4-20 flat head screw. (very convenient)
I also modified the camera plates by drilling and tapping 4 6-32 holes for set screws so as to be able to adjust all the cameras to the same reference while allowing for all the base variations of the various camera types I use.
The most amazing thing about the 384 is the clever spring loaded wedge locking arrangement. This design ensures a consistent locking force which I am sure to some degree accounts for it's extreme repeatability.

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I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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post #388 of 1097 Old 09-10-2011, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

16" cable length on the Lanc Shepherd. Thanks that should be perfect!

On the Manfrotto mounts- do you have a link or model number I can check out?
I may investigate further on your idea. I was trying to achieve a quick connect and not have to do field calibration but couldn't find anything I liked ( size weight and price). Now that I have had some more time testing this I see the alignment isn't as critical and can use Sony Vegas Auto calibrate. That works very well. I recall in class thinking that maybe the test files they had already to go may have been special to demo and when I got to it my files would be more trouble. Apparently not.

Here are your requested SBS Full files. ( Had to reduce to 1280 wide for AVS. ) If that doesn't work for you I can upload the full res ones to my web server.

TD10; IA8 inch; and IA 16"

My adjusted stereo base extender is on its way (they're actually sending me a brand new one). I don't expect pixel perfection in a mechanical device such as this, but I've had no need to use the auto calibrate feature in Vegas. How does it work? Is it like the auto featue in Neo, which "zooms in" automatically to align the stereo pairs after you make adjustments?

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post #389 of 1097 Old 09-10-2011, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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My adjusted stereo base extender is on its way (they're actually sending me a brand new one). I don't expect pixel perfection in a mechanical device such as this, but I've had no need to use the auto calibrate feature in Vegas. How does it work? Is it like the auto featue in Neo, which "zooms in" automatically to align the stereo pairs after you make adjustments?

Yes and it works extremely well and just like Neo, it gives you the option to auto zoom or not.

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post #390 of 1097 Old 09-10-2011, 08:51 AM
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I also modified the camera plates by drilling and tapping 4 6-32 holes for set screws so as to be able to adjust all the cameras to the same reference while allowing for all the base variations of the various camera types I use.

Nice and solid but wasn't that a bitch to do your alignment due to the location? The three black knobs on mine are accessible, but I have to recalibrate with each setup. Once aligned, I lock it down with the white knob and I'm good.



On the other subject- The "Cinerama" I haven't figured out a good way to make the two cameras swivel yet using the same mounts, single tripod. My idea is to create a seamless super wide angle 3D video. In a traditional Cinerama each camera has it's own screen so there is a border dividing them. I want to display on a single 16x9 screen letter boxed that will be at 16x4.5 aspect ratio and in 3D. I've done this in Vegas with 2D but not in 3D.

For large panorama scenery, I will need to use one rig like I have now with the twin TD10's in 2D mode with IA at 24" and a second rig I plan to build using the same bench setup but 2 HDR SR12's for the other 3D side.

Matching the left side 3D and right side 3D will be tricky, especially with the different cameras, but your test with the two different cameras, the JVC and SonyTD10 told me this is possible. I will be using the TD10's and the SR12's. Much easier is to shoot with the the TD10's using their own internal 3D modes on angles to get the wide angle but of course the scene will need to be close up to possess any good 3D stereo.

So far all the testing is demonstrating I can do it without needing to sync all 4 cameras except for the clap board thanks to Vegas quantizing to frames and snap-to as described in the help files.
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