When small interaxials just don't cut it! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:14 AM
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Have you considered a 3D Bloggie with 3/4" IA? It's designed for close up 3D.

I'm hoping to get to NAB next year and will be looking into some jibs too.

Haven't heard from Frank in a week. Hope he is OK.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Have you considered a 3D Bloggie with 3/4" IA? It's designed for close up 3D.

I'm hoping to get to NAB next year and will be looking into some jibs too.

Haven't heard from Frank in a week. Hope he is OK.

He's probably just busy.

The specs on the Bloggie say you can shoot as close as 4". Have you done any closeup work with it, Don? Any examples you can share? A sample of a flower from a few inches away would be revealing.

I almost picked up a Bloggie at Best Buy a few months ago. I don't know how much longer this great weather will continue, so I'm tempted to pick one up and see if it works for those CUs. If it doesn't, I could always return it.

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Old 10-16-2011, 02:06 PM
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Old 10-16-2011, 05:51 PM
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"The specs on the Bloggie say you can shoot as close as 4"."

Don't be misled; that is for 2D. The minimum distance for 3D is much longer.
This is what the manual says for 3D: "Keep a distance between the camera and the subject of approximately 1.2 m to 5.0 m (approx. 3 feet
11 1/4 inches to 16 feet 4 7/8 inches)."
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:13 PM
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Mark- I suspect that range maybe for average ( f8) or lower light levels as I have gotten adequate images ar object distances as short as 1 ft and remain in focus with bright sunlight. The IA permits converged closeups as little as 4 inches but the focus is the problem.
Using the TD10 and manual focus, it seems better results can be obtained as close as 5" distance in full wide mode and using manual 3D adjust as well as manual focus. The TD10 can also shoot the same size object using a distance of 5 ft away and full telephoto but the sacrifice is a flatter looking object. Testing dictates that the HDR TD10 is actually a better choice for macro stereography than the Bloggie 3D.
In the following shots, the Bloggie was using it's own LED light and no color correction was added. The height of the bottle label is 2.75".

Joe- I don't have a flower handy but thought the cylinder would give you an idea on the options. I assume the JVC TD1 can focus at full wide to 5 inches too. For a flower, I don't think you'd want to get any closer.
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I finally completed my new, permanent I.A. / slide bench and I really like how it works. Very fast setup time, calibrations are repeatable and the dovetail 523 systems worked out great. I decided to go with two length slide tables, one that will be used on most of my projects requiring greater than TD-10 IA. This is a short table that is variable IA from 4" to 12". For very long distant 3D I have a second length table that is variable from 4" minimum to 36" This one also doubles as a smooth slide table for dolly moves using one camera. The secret to the ultra smooth sliding of the camera is the special teflon bearings that are individually tensioned with a setscrew and a special rail made by Igus Inc. They make the slide bearings and the rails.

Looking good, Don...
I'm tempted to order one of those myself even though I don't need one.

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Old 10-17-2011, 08:08 AM
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Frank-

Amazon has a deal package on the 1040 system which is what I bought. I ordered two of them to get the two slide tables, and have an extra set of rails. The only thing you'll need to do is drill a hole for the quick releases and a center hole for the dovetail for mounting to a tripod plate. I also bought a set of brakes but they really aren't needed. The only disappointment with this is the weight which ended up being about 3 pounds heavier, but mostly that had to do with the quick releases from Manfrotto.

I'm really impressed with the Lanc shepherd. It's so easy now to zoom in and keep everything calibrated in sync.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Mark- I suspect that range maybe for average ( f8) or lower light levels as I have gotten adequate images ar object distances as short as 1 ft and remain in focus with bright sunlight. The IA permits converged closeups as little as 4 inches but the focus is the problem.
Using the TD10 and manual focus, it seems better results can be obtained as close as 5" distance in full wide mode and using manual 3D adjust as well as manual focus. The TD10 can also shoot the same size object using a distance of 5 ft away and full telephoto but the sacrifice is a flatter looking object. Testing dictates that the HDR TD10 is actually a better choice for macro stereography than the Bloggie 3D.
In the following shots, the Bloggie was using it's own LED light and no color correction was added. The height of the bottle label is 2.75".

Joe- I don't have a flower handy but thought the cylinder would give you an idea on the options. I assume the JVC TD1 can focus at full wide to 5 inches too. For a flower, I don't think you'd want to get any closer.

Thanks, Don. I have very little experience shooting these sorts of CUs, and certainly not in 3D. I have a lot of experimenting to do. I've decided to order the Cyclopital3D adapter and a CU lens. You can also use the adapter for filters and a matte box - anything that uses a 77mm thread. I can also use the JVC's full range of wide to tele with it. I'll be able to use it for lots of things on this project in the coming weeks.

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Old 10-17-2011, 08:39 AM
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I continue to be impressed with the Cyclopital3D stereo base extender. I've shot with it for 3 days straight, and I've been able to get some images with remarkable depth. Combine the 5 1/2" interaxial with bright sunshine and the area touch controls for focus/exposure on the JVC, and it's possible to get results I've never seen before. I'm seeing tremendous depth at medium distances, but I pick up separation even at great distance - in long shots in which the JVC by itself flattens out completely.

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Old 10-17-2011, 04:12 PM
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Joe- when you get a chance could you take some pictures of that closeup system attached, especially from the front. I'm curious as to how they make that work with two off center cameras. I have a bunch of diopter lenses here I could use but I thought they needed to centered on each camera lens. That would require two small lenses rather than one big 77mm diopter. I hope I'm wrong because I could rig something for the bloggie! Don't need anything for the TD10 because it already shoots close up enough and still be in sharp focus.
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Old 10-17-2011, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Joe- when you get a chance could you take some pictures of that closeup system attached, especially from the front. I'm curious as to how they make that work with two off center cameras. I have a bunch of diopter lenses here I could use but I thought they needed to centered on each camera lens. That would require two small lenses rather than one big 77mm diopter. I hope I'm wrong because I could rig something for the bloggie! Don't need anything for the TD10 because it already shoots close up enough and still be in sharp focus.

Take a look at the pictures on their web site here. Scroll down to the bottom. I don't think it will be a problem, but I'll find out soon enough. It should be here by mid-week.

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Old 10-17-2011, 09:58 PM
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Joe- I saw that before and it is not the close-up diopter lens but just a threaded ring adapter to mount your filters and close-up adapters. The lens is not included. But, they claim you can use the adapter to screw on the diopter lenses which is what I question whether it will work or not. I have some 52mm 1, 2, and 3 diopter lenses here that I could test on the bloggie which is where I need them.
As for the adapter, it is similar to what I made for my TD10 but my cost was only $10 for the threaded 77mm ring. However, mine have become a semi-permanent fixture on the camcorders.

Here's a reasonable priced kit- http://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-Close-...8910372&sr=8-7
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Old 10-17-2011, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Joe- I saw that before and it is not the close-up diopter lens but just a threaded ring adapter to mount your filters and close-up adapters. The lens is not included. But, they claim you can use the adapter to screw on the diopter lenses which is what I question whether it will work or not. I have some 52mm 1, 2, and 3 diopter lenses here that I could test on the bloggie which is where I need them.
As for the adapter, it is similar to what I made for my TD10 but my cost was only $10 for the threaded 77mm ring. However, mine have become a semi-permanent fixture on the camcorders.

Here's a reasonable priced kit- http://www.amazon.com/Vivitar-Close-...8910372&sr=8-7

If it doesn't work, I can send it back. However, I'm getting the exact lens they've used to test the adapter - a Marumi 77mm +3 CU lens. They're sending both. The Marumi is pretty well reviewed.

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Old 10-17-2011, 11:40 PM
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I'll have an iso up soon with some random shots I took with the stereo base extender - really basic editing and 3D Blu-ray creation with PowerDirector 10, just to see what it will do. In my first, shorter test, I wasn't impressed at all with the conversion from 60i to 24p - much choppier than Vegas. But, I tweaked some settings and may get better results.

The iso shows how much the SBE increases the depth of images shot with the TD1. It's not before and after type shots, but the degree of separation is unmistakable.

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Old 10-18-2011, 12:08 AM
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Well, the test iso finished rendering pretty fast and it looks much better than my first test. Perhaps further tweaking can improve the 60i to 24p conversion even more. So, here it is.

It looks good in 2D - won't have time to watch in 3D until tomorrow.

I downloaded PowerDirector 10 today and grabbed some mp4 clips from my last couple of days of shooting at the Garden. Random stuff, really. I muted the ambient sound, added some music, applied the default transitions globally and told the program to use one of the stock menus. Then I burned the Blu-ray 3D.

The JVC MVC clips import directly into PDir 10 and play back a little smoother than they do in Vegas - good preview quality but somewhat choppy playback on my Core i5/GeForce 450. It certainly won't replace the Vegas/Premiere editing workflow, but for fast and dirty editing, it will be great. It renders really fast, too. And you get menus. That alone is worth the price of the program. I've used PowerDirector in the past, and it still feels pretty much the same as it did for DVD production. Not a full-featured, heavy duty NLE, but surprisingly useful. Just save often. It crashed a couple of times on me. But in fairness, this is my everyday system, so it's loaded down with a lot of crapola.

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Old 11-30-2011, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a YouTube 3D video of one of my inventions undergoing preliminary load testing.
Shot with a Sony TD10.
This is the first 3D video I've shot in the last two months.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:35 PM
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Welcome back, Frank! Hope you had a good Thanksgiving holiday.

Glad to see you're making progress on the leveler. Any ETA for the "Auto" function to become active?

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Old 11-30-2011, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Welcome back, Frank! Hope you had a good Thanksgiving holiday.

Glad to see you're making progress on the leveler. Any ETA for the "Auto" function to become active?

Thanks Joe,
The "Auto" functionality has already been tested and works fine.
At the moment we are finalizing the circuit boards for production.
I'm currently working on testing the mechanism and injection molding designs, and so forth and so forth,etc,=

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
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Thanks Joe,
The "Auto" functionality has already been tested and works fine.
At the moment we are finalizing the circuit boards for production.
I'm currently working on testing the mechanism and injection molding designs, and so forth and so forth,etc,=

Very cool!!!

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Old 11-30-2011, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Very cool!!!

Your test unit should be ready within another month.
Looking forward to your evaluation. At least I think so.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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Old 11-30-2011, 05:57 PM
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Even cooler!!!

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Old 01-06-2012, 12:37 AM
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I've been working on shooting 3D of Fireworks but I can see the range of IA using 9" to 30" I've been trying is not even in the ball park. Here is a video where the guy places his cameras about 150 feet apart! I wonder how he calibrates them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NVVOQXcn6Q
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

I've been working on shooting 3D of Fireworks but I can see the range of IA using 9" to 30" I've been trying is not even in the ball park. Here is a video where the guy places his cameras about 150 feet apart! I wonder how he calibrates them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NVVOQXcn6Q

Nicely done.
It states 30 meters as the IA which is just under a hundred feet.
It would have been a simple matter to line up the cameras using the lights as reference as long as the tripods were level and on level ground.
I wonder if the cameras were zoomed in? I would guess that the answer is yes based on the seeming lack of the miniaturization effect.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:26 PM
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Frank, in one of the other videos they lists the focal length as 18mm and 50mm.
Found the link to it. Different guy-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGeOJ...feature=relmfu

Did you go to his web site and check out his still photos? This guy has really perfected the art of shooting large and small stereography. I downloaded his stereobase calculator and it is the best one I have seen so far.

Based on that and his results, I'm considering adding a second tripod and an extension cable for the Lanc Shepherd. I think a simple laser level may work to align the height of the second camera. What do you think?
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Old 04-06-2012, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Calibration of the cameras is tricky and very sensitive. I use the grid lines in the TD10 2D mode to compare the two cameras and adjust the image to match first at full wide and then tweak them at full zoom. The LANC device does an excellent job of syncing the zoom at any level with I think is just short of amazing. It also syncs the exposure and shutter speed, fstop, etc.

Don, what is your experience in the meantime with the calibration?

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Old 04-06-2012, 12:42 PM
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I still use the same procedure and setup to align the two cameras on the slide rail. Once done it holds for sliding to different IA's. Auto calibrate with keyframes in post is still your best friend for final tweaking what looks best in post.
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Old 04-07-2012, 01:38 AM
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Ok, I think about to purchase the same system - and from that side I have some additional questions:

- I understood that the alignment of the two TD10s is tricky. To match geometry the two cameras have to be in perfect controled relative positon. How do you align that the verticals and optical axes are parallel really?

- does it also hold if you remove the camcorder from the slider - do you have to do again the alignment next time again? Even if you use parts like the Manfrotto 501 rapid connect plate?

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Old 04-07-2012, 08:20 AM
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Time to post some details of my present design.

Can you get access to 2 of these in Austria?
http://www.amazon.com/DryLin%C2%AE-W...3804774&sr=8-2

You will need two to have 2 slider tables for each camera and a spare rail you can cut to smaller sizes.

Then order 3 of these dove tail quick release from Manfrotto. You will need one for each camera and one for the rail.
http://www.amazon.com/Manfrotto-323-...3805006&sr=1-3

Other than your tripod, you now have the basic hardware to fabricate a good variable stereo base slide bench for very low cost.


You will need access to a drill press for precision drilling of some mounting holes to mount the quick release plates on the slide tables and a center hole to mount the quick release plate to the center of the rail. I made 3 different size rails for convenience. I have one that is 230mm, 660mm, and one that is full length from IGUS, about 1 meter long. Depending on your shooting needs and carrying convenience you will shoot stereo with either the short or middle length rail. The long full length rail is best reserved for true slide rail camera motion in 2D shooting that this IGUS rail system was originally designed to do.

What stereo base distances you select are arbitrary but based on a formula for using your intended stage, say a soccer field and game or a mountain range where you enter your distances and lens settings to determine the stereo base of the two cameras. The most important estimated distance, IMO, is the near object distance minimum that will be in the shot. If it is to be 100 meters away, your stereo base will be less than if it is 1000meters away. In other words, if I'm shooting a scene with a near object that comes into the shot 5 meters away and my stereo base is 500mm then the shot is ruined as the near object will not appear converged in the scene.

Your questions on alignment of the cameras with my bench design:

I align the release plate to the camcorders visually squaring them up as best I can and snug the 1/4-20 screw just tight enough to allow the camcorder to twist with a little force. This does not need to be tightened further as it will stay for a day's shooting.
The alignment is done by first leveling the rail. I like to carry a small straight line level to put on the IGUS rail to assist in this alignment but the bubble level on the pan head will do fine. Now set your cameras at maximum stereo base on the rails and go into the 2D menus for each and set up the camera settings. for auto focus iris and other as desired and according to the sync instructions of your two camera LANC device. On my Lanc Shepherd the adjustments are done on the master camera and the other slave syncs to it. Make sure your camcorder display info is on and you have a grid line on to use for calibration of camera alignment.
Start with the left camera zoomed out full wide and find an object in the center of your shooting stage you can lock in on. Position the camera left cross hairs on the screen as desired on that object. Now go to the right camera and look for that same object and align the camera by twisting it on it's plate mounting so that the two objects are lined up on the cross hairs. You now have the cameras coarsely aligned for full wide lens setting. This will be good enough and work for everything at full wide angle.
Now fine tune the alignment for zoomed in object in the same stage. This time you will set the left side of an object in the shot to the left cross hairs and then go to the right camera and position a distance to the right that matches the IA of the stereo base to the camera right cross hairs. The wider stereo base, the larger the stage and therefore the less critical this zoomed in alignment is.
Still these are just initial alignments of the physical cameras for shooting at great distances and close is good enough.
The final vertical disparity alignment and horizontal as well as other tweaks to the alignment is done in post using the 3D stereographic auto calibrate. Here the final results will end in perfection of the stereo illusion.

You need to do a good coarse calibration of the cameras but don't waste time trying to perfect this and don't worry over it. There is just a practical limit to what can be done when shooting great distances. Better to take the shot and land the bullet on the paper target, then later on adjust the bullet hole to the bullseye ( metaphorically speaking)

Once the coarse alignment is done at full wide stereo base, I have found that sliding to different stereo bases will hold the stereo base good enough and you can always do a quick check on the grid cross hairs to a reference object in the scene to be sure something didn't get bumped out of alignment. I have also removed one camera, switched it to 3D mode and did some shooting of close ups ( within 4 meters ) then switched back to 2D mode replaced the camera on the rail with the dovetail quick connect and it was still in alignment with the other camcorder. But having a third camera is a better idea. I have a third slider table for the rail from igus that I can roll video and take stills of the same scene that I can stick in the center of the twin cams. This is also good for rigging with the NEX5n I use for 3D super wide AR panoramas. The IGUS slider is really a versatile tool for all these applications.
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Old 04-07-2012, 03:52 PM
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Don, thank you for the confirmation that the alignment holds at least for a day - and your result that the final alignment can be done in the post. That sounds great for me.

Yes, I can order all the parts there in Austria too, but not from Amazon but from a direct distribution channel they have in Germany/Austria. My idea was to order two rails with 1200 mm and 500 mm, but I think you are right and it is a good idea to order also one with 230 mm because the higher costs are minimal.

And I have to purchase a second TD10, as long as it is available in the market - what makes me not completely happy since the PAL version of the TD10 shoots with 25p but not with 24p (and I think I will shoot in 50p and convert that to 24p in the Postpro).

And my third camcorder is the Z10K anyway, so this system is really for situations where I need a larger IO.

Thank you for your idea.

Kind regards,
Wolfgang
videotreffpunkt.com
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is a link to a 3D YouTube which shows me testing my automatic leveling head in my front yard.
Demo 3D video

Joe, I haven't forgotten my promise. I've just been real busy lately but I hope to have a version for you very soon.

Did IQ's suddenly drop sharply while I was away?
I enjoy 3D in spite of HDMI 1.4!
Full screen only 3D doesn't cut it!
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