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When small interaxials just don't cut it!

49K views 1K replies 27 participants last post by  MLXXX 
#1 ·




A nine inch interaxial might seem like a lot but soon I'm going even bigger at 3 feet.
 
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#52 ·
Maybe a failure to make a complete show but you definitly demonstrated the advantage of the 5 ft. IA separation for shooting Fireworks. If you look at what I did both at Disney and here in town last night, it doesn't come close to the separation you get at those distances.

I'm really pleased to know that you were able to prove the requirement of a bench to shoot something like that that you can't get closed to.


I didn't look at it in anaglyph, rather on my Vizio 32" 3D monitor.

Here is what I shot last night. There were two sites downtown that I could capture. Because of the crowds, Jacksonville sets up several locations around the city and syncs them up. From my shooting point, I could see both up river. The only 3D effect I could get with the TD10 was Zaxis separation between the two locations and the buildings. Nothing to brag on inside the explosions. Not like you got!
 
#53 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20656512


Maybe a failure to make a complete show but you definitly demonstrated the advantage of the 5 ft. IA separation for shooting Fireworks. If you look at what I did both at Disney and here in town last night, it doesn't come close to the separation you get at those distances.

I'm really pleased to know that you were able to prove the requirement of a bench to shoot something like that that you can't get closed to.


I didn't look at it in anaglyph, rather on my Vizio 32" 3D monitor.

Here is what I shot last night. There were two sites downtown that I could capture. Because of the crowds, Jacksonville sets up several locations around the city and syncs them up. From my shooting point, I could see both up river. The only 3D effect I could get with the TD10 was Zaxis separation between the two locations and the buildings. Nothing to brag on inside the explosions. Not like you got!

I had no idea weddings could be so exhausting!


It seems to have taken me a week to recover from my grand daughter's wedding on the 2nd. I did manage to shoot it in 3D with my JVC GS-TD1 and it looks pretty good, probably because the bride looked so incredibly beautiful.

For the most part, I find the small IA of the new consumer 3D camcorders more like 2D then 3D. This might have something to do with the fact that I have shot and watched maybe thousands of hours of 3D in the past year with a minimum IA of 2 7/8th inches.

All the 3D video I've seen from the Sony 3D camcorder looks 2D to me.

I believe 3D has been dumbed down to the lowest possible common denominator so as to make it as widely acceptable as possible.

I hate the compressed Z axis that is so common.


As far as the fireworks is concerned, the advantage of the large interaxial is obvious and I'm quite upset at the missed opportunity.

I talked to my grandson about me funding a trip for him and his wife to Orlando conditional on him shooting the show with my rig. He loves the idea and just needs some training.
 
#54 ·
So you won't come down? Just plan the trip in mid October to mid November with no hurricanes bearing down on us, especially in the gulf and the crowds should be low, plus weather great. If you set up about 90 minutes before show time you will get your pick of the best shot so you will be in the clear. After an hour, the squatters will be crowding in.


I think if you can't see 3D with the JVC or the Sony camcorders you must have vision problems.



Have you looked at my Victoria Gardens video? Plenty of gratuitous pop out in that garden.


Weddings- When my daughter got married I was warned not to shoot the wedding so I hired two of my people (professionals) to shoot it with my equipment.
 
#55 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20665130


So you won't come down? Just plan the trip in mid October to mid November with no hurricanes bearing down on us, especially in the gulf and the crowds should be low, plus weather great. If you set up about 90 minutes before show time you will get your pick of the best shot so you will be in the clear. After an hour, the squatters will be crowding in.


I think if you can't see 3D with the JVC or the Sony camcorders you must have vision problems.



Have you looked at my Victoria Gardens video? Plenty of gratuitous pop out in that garden.


Weddings- When my daughter got married I was warned not to shoot the wedding so I hired two of my people (professionals) to shoot it with my equipment.

I refuse to fly on airplanes anymore because of the TSA but that's another story.

My grandkids will go and I'm sure with proper training they'll do a great job.

Your advice is very welcome and should be very helpful.

As far as me not seeing 3D with the JVC and Sony, it's pretty much true.

My vision is not good as my Ophthalmologist will certify.


Two artificial lenses and retina operations later, my left eye has little contrast and resolution remaining.

I don't remember if I saw the Victoria Gardens video. Perhaps you could point me to where it is.

P.S. I'm from Miami originally and lived there 22 years so I'm familiar with the weather...and more then familiar with the hurricanes.
 
#56 ·

Quote:
I refuse to fly on airplanes anymore because of the TSA but that's another story.

I hear ya- I travel as a cybernetic organism so I have to get the pat down every time and some of them are just idiots. I carry the card that allows me to bypass the metal detectors but that doesn't exempt me from a full body search.


Here is the link to the Victoria Gardens video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg5pJDiKo9M


There are some intentional popouts that I set up that have extreme range. One that comes to mind is of a duck with a broken wing. I shot her about 20" from the camera at full wide angle. Any closer and the image would be diverged and ghost out. That was about minimum for the TD10. I saw where one guy fixed two close up diopter lenses and shot some 3D 6 " away and it was impressive. With the duck, I can feel like I can reach out and pet her. The male duck is farther back, about 4 ft from the camera. Another full range shot is of the rock with the plaque "Victoria Gardens" the rock should come right up to you and as I elevate the camera you will see the distance of the garden shoot all the way back behind the screen plane at the same time. With my Sony projector it fills the room with an experience of being there. With my 32" Visio the effect isn't quite as impressive but the ratios of z axis are still there.


I've been meaning to ask you, when you decide on a spread between the cameras, do you look the IA recommendation up in a chart ( like I would use here from the text book ) or do you calculate it based on the expected lens to subject distance or do you just wing it?
 
#57 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20666238


I hear ya- I travel as a cybernetic organism so I have to get the pat down every time and some of them are just idiots. I carry the card that allows me to bypass the metal detectors but that doesn't exempt me from a full body search.


Here is the link to the Victoria Gardens video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg5pJDiKo9M


There are some intentional popouts that I set up that have extreme range. One that comes to mind is of a duck with a broken wing. I shot her about 20" from the camera at full wide angle. Any closer and the image would be diverged and ghost out. That was about minimum for the TD10. I saw where one guy fixed two close up diopter lenses and shot some 3D 6 " away and it was impressive. With the duck, I can feel like I can reach out and pet her. The male duck is farther back, about 4 ft from the camera. Another full range shot is of the rock with the plaque "Victoria Gardens" the rock should come right up to you and as I elevate the camera you will see the distance of the garden shoot all the way back behind the screen plane at the same time. With my Sony projector it fills the room with an experience of being there. With my 32" Visio the effect isn't quite as impressive but the ratios of z axis are still there.

The Victoria Gardens video is quite nice. I can easily see the 3D effect on the extreme closeups but the compressed Z axis is distracting to me. If you had shot it with an IA of 2.5" or more I think it would have looked fantastic. No doubt that I'm unusually sensitive to the small IA having shot so much myself with a min of 2.875".
Quote:
I've been meaning to ask you, when you decide on a spread between the cameras, do you look the IA recommendation up in a chart ( like I would use here from the text book ) or do you calculate it based on the expected lens to subject distance or do you just wing it?

My technique is quite simple. I have both the composite video outputs of the cameras connected to a laptop and I monitor the live 3D with Stereoscopic Player and can observe the parallax real time and adjust the camera spacing according to what I think is appropriate. Rules be dammed!
 
#58 ·
Don,


I had somehow missed watching your Victoria Gardens video so I just watched it to completion in anaglyph. It was really a splendid example of 3D editing with an excellent sense of 3D depth, nice composition, very nice music, etc. It was a genuine pleasure to watch it. You are certainly making excellent use of both the Sony HDR-TD10 and the editing features in Vegas 10. I am only sorry that I can't watch the MVC version of this on my 90ES. It would really be stunning then. Well done!


Tom
 
#59 ·
Thanks Tom. The anaglyph really screws up the color definition I saw. eg the bright red flowers come out yellow in anaglyph.


I knew this ever since I started working with 3D. So, that was one incentive I needed to get a decent 3D monitor in my edit room and thus, I have the Vizio 32" passive. I am very pleased with it. For YT and looking at WMV player, I just slide the app to the secondary monitor on my computer graphic6s card and then expand to full screen. IN YT I ahve to switch it to SBS half and I can enjoy all the YT videos in full color and good 3D with more than adequate resolution. Remember the Vizio is not 65" Passive but 32" so sitting 5 ft from it the perspective is good. In other words, the resolution looks fine with no objectionable jaggies.
 
#60 ·
Frank- I'm happy you could detect some of the 3D effect in that video since the particular scenes were so extreme. Guess you need to change your mantra now about the Sony always looks flat to you.

Quote:
If you had shot it with an IA of 2.5" or more I think it would have looked fantastic. No doubt that I'm unusually sensitive to the small IA having shot so much myself with a min of 2.875".
Well, I'm more of an engineer when it comes to cameras and production requirements. I use the "rules" as my starting point and see how far I can push the limits.

When I took the classes on 3D stereography, I learned what the rules were and yes the wider IA would have given me a greater range in the far wall of the scene but also would have moved that up close minimum I now enjoy. However, if the lenses on the camera could be had at 28mm rather than 35mm, the minimum could be held to the same. As I recall the JVC has an even longer lens than the Sony, I recall somewhere around 40mm? and then only 5X zoom so with that limitation it results in a similar 3D zone of 3D because the JVC has a slightly wider IA. But in those special requirements, your 5 ft IA is great to achieve a satisfactory range of depth in the scene from a half mile ( 50% rule) to a mile and a half away using a normal 50mm lens.

Note- for those who may get confused, 3D scene zone is not the same as wide angle field of view. The 3D scene zone is a stage with the screen at it's center, the back wall is as far back as you can detect 3D separation and the front of the stage is as far front as you can shoot before the image goes double or your eyes have to greatly cross to bring it together. I have a DVD with a training series on this using 3D Max to demonstrate how the stage changes as you adjust the IA and lens angle.
 
#61 ·
After having my JVC GS-TD1 for a while now, I've found exactly two good uses for it.

1. Recording my great granddaughter's antics in my living room.

2. Extreme closeups of the bears.

For everything else I've tried, including my grand daughters wedding, I find the small IA lacking.

Since the Sony has an even smaller IA I won't be buying one as I have no use for it.

I just got two new Canon HF-M32's to replace two HF-21's that I accidentally left outside in a rain storm.


I was playing around with them recently and shot this 3D video almost by accident. I was going to turn on the bilge pump of my boat and saw something that caused me to turn on the cameras and shoot, even though the IA was set to about 7 inches.

I have no doubt whatsoever that this video violates every 3D rule in the book but I actually enjoy it more than most of what I've shot with the JVC.

It would probably give most 3D viewers a headache. I guess I've become immune.

be stowaway[/URL]
 
#62 ·

Quote:
It would probably give most 3D viewers a headache. I guess I've become immune.

After about 3 views I began to get the headache. Then knowing how forgetful you are, I opened up the 3D swap and swapped the right and left eye and voila' it looks OK!
It's not a natural separation but with a trained eye for 3D I can live with the eye exercise. Fortunately, it isn't long or changing to other views.


Suggestion- Here's what I do, I keep a small WORD doc file with the tags on my desktop. Then when I upload a 3D to You tube I copy and paste it into the tag box so I don't forget anything or mistype it. Works for me!
 
#63 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20673331


After about 3 views I began to get the headache. Then knowing how forgetful you are, I opened up the 3D swap and swapped the right and left eye and voila' it looks OK!
It's not a natural separation but with a trained eye for 3D I can live with the eye exercise. Fortunately, it isn't long or changing to other views.


Suggestion- Here's what I do, I keep a small WORD doc file with the tags on my desktop. Then when I upload a 3D to You tube I copy and paste it into the tag box so I don't forget anything or mistype it. Works for me!

The problem is not that I'm forgetful which of course I am.


The problem is that it looks correct on my system in full screen as it's set.

Apparently, YouTube has the phase reversed when outputting using checkerboard mode.
 
#64 ·
I've been going back through my YouTube 3D videos and setting the flag correctly or at least I think correctly so that they look wrong using checkerboard mode.
 
#65 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis /forum/post/20673331


After about 3 views I began to get the headache. Then knowing how forgetful you are, I opened up the 3D swap and swapped the right and left eye and voila' it looks OK!
It's not a natural separation but with a trained eye for 3D I can live with the eye exercise. Fortunately, it isn't long or changing to other views.

You have a trained eye for 3D and you watched it three times with the phase reversed???
 
#66 ·
Actually, I think it was only twice but it seemed like I was enduring the pain for more. I looked at it first in anaglyph and second in SBS on my vizio. Then I swapped the left right.


It seems that all YT processing reverses the left and right so that everyone uploading needs to include that tag. Maybe the guys at YT are using checkerboard and write their code with a swap built in, then the general public comes along and have to swap back.
 
#67 ·
I drove my boat out onto the western end of Lake Superior yesterday wearing my GoPro 3D Hero on my head and carrying my JVC GS-TD1 and adjustable IA dual camera rig and shot some video of a three mast sailboat with all three.

I'm rendering a video right now that includes clips from all three including variable IA from 1.35" GoPro and JVC all the way out to 9.0".


The JVC had aggressive image stabilization turned on and my hand held had none of course. I recently did however order a gyro stabilizer which hopefully I will have working next week.
 
#68 ·
Vegas crashed while rendering the 14 minute long video but the partial render plays up to the point where it crashed so I'm uploading it to YouTube as is.

It's enough anyway.

If anyone desires to see the rendered output then let me know otherwise I'm just uploading to YouTube.
 
#69 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank /forum/post/20689191


Vegas crashed while rendering the 14 minute long video but the partial render plays up to the point where it crashed so I'm uploading it to YouTube as is.

It's enough anyway.

If anyone desires to see the rendered output then let me know otherwise I'm just uploading to YouTube.

I'd like to see it. Always interested in such direct comparisons.
 
#70 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark /forum/post/20689298


I'd like to see it. Always interested in such direct comparisons.

I find the comparison fascinating. I'll be doing a lot more once my gyro stabilizer is up and running.

The YouTube upload is taking forever!
 
#71 ·
Which one did you get, Frank? The one you referenced earlier? I'll be curious to see what it looks like in your rig. I've always been interested in such a device as a competitor to the traditional steady cam ( now off patent) Hint Hint!
 
#72 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis
Which one did you get, Frank? The one you referenced earlier? I'll be curious to see what it looks like in your rig. I've always been interested in such a device as a competitor to the traditional steady cam ( now off patent) Hint Hint!
This one


I also got a dual output inverter for 12VDC.
 
#73 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Clark /forum/post/20689298


I'd like to see it. Always interested in such direct comparisons.

Here it is in MP4 format.
3 3D cams


The YouTube version failed on upload. Trying again.
 
#74 ·
Thanks for uploading that video, Frank. It's always interesting to see the differences in 3D cameras. I usually watch 3D first with the glasses on, and then re-watch it as I lift them up and down. It's fascinating to see the differences in the convergence and divergence of objects within the frame with different 3D rigs. I'm too new to 3D to understand exactly what's going on, but the manufacturers seem to take different approaches to it. Distant objects shot with the Sony camcorder almost always look fairly widely diverged, similar to the GoPro. Objects at similar distances with the JVC seem to converge much more. Also, the convergence/divergence with the JVC is different depending on how I initially frame. That is, if I start a shot with objects close up and then tilt up to objects further off in the background, there's greater divergence of those distant objects than if I frame on them at the start of the shot. This tells me that there are some moving elements in the optics and/or on the chips in the JVC that determine how the left/right images come together to create 3D. Obviously, that's not happening with the GoPro, with its fixed lenses. And unless I'm mistaken it's also not happening with your dual camera rig. You don't have variable convergence working on that rig yet, do you?


As I said, I'm too new to all this to draw much in the way of conclusions yet. What I do know is that, mostly, I prefer the sense of depth in the 3D video created by your dual Canon rig. The JVC doesn't provide as much. OTOH, I do like a lot of things about the JVC camcorder. If I frame carefully, the sense of depth is quite pleasing, though not as dramatic. The 3D is clean, and the depth of field is almost unbelievable. Objects from very near to very far are tack-sharp, with incredible detail. I also love the color and contrast of the JVC. I've been to Shaw's Garden a zillion times, and I'm continually impressed by how much the JVC's 3D makes me feel like I'm really there. No 2D camera has ever come close to doing that for me. So, I'm very satisfied with the JVC in those ways.


Here's what might settle some "debate" (if there is any
) about the differences in how your 3 systems perform, and specifically about the relative benefit of a wider IA distance. Put them on tripods and shoot things with settings as close as possible on all three. Set them up so that there are objects near, medium and far away. After that, throw in a shot with the Canons at their widest wide angle setting. I think I know the enhancement that's going to provide to the subject matter. I suspect it will increase the dramatic impact, just as wide angle shots have the capability of doing in 2D filmmaking. But I could be wrong. That's why I'm so keen on seeing such a comparison. If the variables are the same except for the interaxial distance, then we may be able to draw some more solid conclusions about its effect. The wide angle impact should make such a comparison even more revealing.


Almost forgot. It would be helpful to see the effect of telephoto, just like wide angle settings. That is, zoom in to the same telephoto framing with the JVC and the Canons, and we can look for differences in the sense of depth at the zoomed in range. Then, throw in a shot of the Canons at their max telephoto range.


See what I did there? I planned your weekend for you.
 
#75 ·

Quote:
I'm too new to 3D to understand exactly what's going on, but the manufacturers seem to take different approaches to it.

Actually, there is little difference in how the manufacturers do things once you see the relationships of the different designs and their methods as they decide what the purpose of the 3D stereo camera will be. One good example of this is the Bloggie3D, vs, the TD1 /TD10's and then we get to the bigger shoulder mounts from Sony and Panasonic. The Bloggie 3D uses a rather close IA but it's true intent is to be shooting up close and personal, the TD-1 and TD10's are mostly for shooting personal stuff of uthers having fun etc. The bigger cams alluded to are intended for shooting sports at greater distances. The bench rigs with wide IA's are intended for obtaining good separation of scenery on larger outdoor sets but ability to adjust for shooting up close like the TD1 / TD10's as well. More important to use same camera personality throughout the project but have the flexibility for a full range of stages.


All the above mystery can be learned by reading one of my favorite books 3D Movie Making by Bernard Mendiburu. He offers explanations on the whole process which contrary to popular belief is more science and has been reduced to formula than art. The book is loaded with drawings to explain the relationships between the focal length and the IO designs of the cameras for a particular shooting stage. That stage has a width, length and a height and a point of distance from the camera. The book does a good job of using drawings to explain these relationships but it falls short when demonstrating who the relationships change as the stage changes. So, to overcome this shortfall, he includes a DVD with the book that uses 3Dstudio Max wireframes of a twin camera and a stage in 3D where there is an explanation of what happens when the stage changes dimensions, the distance to the stage changes and the focal length of the lenses change and the interocular or spacing between the cameras changes to compensate. By doing this in real time you can see how it all works in harmony. He shows where stepping outside the limits in his drawing will produce changes to the eyeball angle in viewing and produce eye fatigue, or not. It is a pretty good collection of explanations, when paper book form falls short. There are other books too but they are more specialized in a particular area and the cost of them is about 6 times what this one is because to cover all Mendiburu covers takes like 6 volumes and it lacks the DVD. The book is available through Amazon. I've read it cover to cover 3 times and watched the DVD twice now. Some of the concepts and relationships are not that easy to grasp.
 
#76 ·
I'll check that out. Right now, I'm learning as I shoot. For me, that's an even more valuable way to find out how things work, and what should and shouldn't be done. I'm making plenty of mistakes, but every shot that doesn't work teaches me something just as valuable as one that does.
 
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