Sony TD10 - need a quick idiots guide to the most basic 3d blu burning - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys. If anyone would be most kind and help me out here with this i'd very much appreciate it.

I have just got my TD10, i'm a point and shoot man pretty much, ive set the cam up to pretty much 'auto' settings and I like it, rigged up to the tv and all looks lovely.

Now, I have Sony Vegas 10e, what i'd like to do is make a most basic 3d bluray from my files on the camcorder, ideally i'd copy the files from the cam to the pc, then add them to the project/timeline, I don't ever get into editin or fancy menu's or effects etc, I just want to burn the clips as a full hd 3d blu in as best quality as I can. I've never used vegas before and have spent a few hours googling stuff but all I really need are a few steps to do what I need it to do, ie what settings to use etc.

Any help is most appreciated, thanks.
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post #2 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 12:17 PM
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First of all you don't NEED Vegas Pro 10e. The Pro version of Vegas has many professional editing features you just said you don't care to use but since you chose that, it will work the same as the latest Version of Vegas Platinum HD v11. ( That costs much less and will do all you needed for present day BD-R archive of your 3D clips

So here goes-
1. Connect your TD10 to the computer using the USB cable and follow the onscreen instructions to activate.
2. You should have already installed both Vegas 10e and the version of PMB that came with your TD-10. Now let PMB launch and let it import all your clips to your hard drive and perform the "analysis". When complete- go to next step.
3. Open Vegas 10e and set your project properties for stereographic 3D anaglyph red / cyan. (Note this will not affect what you burn to BD-R but you must have the project for 3D on to one of these and anaglyph is probably your best choice with a regular computer monitor.)
4. Go to explorer in the upper left hand side of vegas and select all the clips in the folder that you told PMB to save your TD-10 clips to. I use the windows convention to select a range of clip files click on the first one and then shift click on the last one. Then click and drag them all to the timeline area. You should see all your clips butt edited together in one movement.
5. Right click in the area just above the timeline time and select "Set selection to project" This will determine the section of the timeline you wish to render and burn to BD-R
6. Go to tools/ burn blu ray disk
7. Select your rendering parameters and select proper audio, choose either template for 720 60p or 1080 24p; and stereo or DD5.1 depending on what audio you have on the timeline.
8. Pick a file name and folder
9. begin rendering.

In version 10e the process is slightly different than 10d so after rendering you need to go back into project properties and set the stereographic 3D from anaglyph to "off" and apply it. Now go back to the tools/ burn blu ray and select burn existing image file. Then make sure the file is shown with path to it. Then select your BluRay burner drive. and ok.

When it's done you will have created your blu ray archive of your video you shot that will play in any 3D bluray player in auto start. No frills and basically idiot proof.

Below are my screen shots in proper order to show what my system would look like following the procedure outlined above.
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL


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post #3 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Many thanks for that.

I tried to create a disc before you posted, added my 3 short clips, I chose stereoscopic full in the options, not sure why, I then went to burn bluray and chose to render to image file 1080p24 25mbps. It also wouldnt let me choose ac3 5.1, saying some plugin isnt installed, DVD Architecture or something.

The resulting image I burnt with imgburn and was recognised in the player as a 3d blu, the only issue was that it wasnt 3d !! it just displayed 2d.

Could this have been because I just copied the 3 mts files from the cam over to the pc then dropped them into Vegas? I'm assuming now that will only give me 2d even when I created a 3d compliant disc like I just did?

I need to download the latest PMB, I have an old version 4.? which I use from my trusty Sony TG3, but I cant seem to download the update, gets to 99% then craps out. I dont have the disc or usb cable that should have come with my cam unfortunately.

I'm assuming I have to import the video with PMB to make sure it imports the 3d aspect correctly? then load these clips into Vegas? What if I stick an SD card into the cam and copy over a 'scene' and import from the card to Vegas, would that work?

I'm hoping I can get PMB to update asap!
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post #4 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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One thing I forgot, in your method, after its created the image you say go back into project properties and turn off etc etc, do I have to burn the resulting image with Vegas or can I just burn using a 3rd party software like imgburn?
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post #5 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 01:26 PM
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YOYO with anything else you want to do with that image file. I gave you the idiot version.


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post #6 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 01:30 PM
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Re DVDA for DD5.1 Vegas Pro ver 10e comes with DVDa ver 5.2 that contains the DD 5.1 codec. IMO, if you didn't install everything for Vegas Pro you will run into little gotchas like that. Go install all of the Vegas Pro package including DVDa 5.2 and that should enable your DD 5.1 AC3 codec.


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post #7 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 01:41 PM
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Quote:
Could this have been because I just copied the 3 mts files from the cam over to the pc then dropped them into Vegas? I'm assuming now that will only give me 2d even when I created a 3d compliant disc like I just did?

I don't know when you don't follow the procedure you are bound to generate all sorts of trouble. I can tell you one problem you will have by importing those MTS files and that is they are file chunks of the clip and PMB is necessary to properly stitch the chunks back together. I do believe that the MTS also won't have the right file structure in MVC to make the 3D format, it will ignore the delta file and just port in the 2D AVCHD which is also what you observed.

Why don't you have the PMB that came with the TD10? rhetorical question. Fact is the PMB for 3D import is special and you will need that particular version. Do not try to use non- 3D compliant versions to do work in 3D. Go recover your PMB disk that came with the TD10.


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post #8 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Many thanks for your help.

To quickly get around the issue of correctly importing the files I stuck an sd card in the cam and copied one scene across to the card, I then imported that into Vegas and followed your settings and voila! Worked a treat on my Pana BDT300.

Unfortunately the disc and some cables were missing from my box and am currently waiting for them, hence the need to download and update PMB to the required version.

One thing I have learnt is import the files properly, my first attempt I just hooked up the cam and drag/drop the files to the pc to work with, this would be fine normally for 2d but not for 3d. I know where I went wrong now.

Do you think at some point Vegas will allow for 1080p50 or p60 with 3d bluray? or is it a limitation of 3d bluray that its only 24p? I must admit I do like the footage more when played directly from the cam at 50p, its definately smoother, but it was still very impressive with the disc I burnt at 24p.
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post #9 of 58 Old 07-12-2011, 05:00 PM
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Don is correct that for creating a 3D bluray iso from the TD10 3D files, Vegas Platinum 11 can do the job. However, there is one big difference - the maximum bitrate for either 108024p or 72060p blu-ray iso's is 10Mbps in Platinum and there is no ability to change that. The low bitrate visibly reduces the quality. Given that the TD10 3D files are essentially 17 Mbps, this restriction is crippling.

There is no "copy protection" reason for this, it is a pure ploy to get one to upgrade to PRO. This is not a missing professional feature, nor does it cost the programmer more to allow a higher bitrate. It is one of the things about Sony that rankles - they are generous in providing a full 30-day trial, and a cheap and powerful editor for 3D, and then they zing you.

Amateurs want good quality videos, and they can certainly see the difference in quality, even if they have no interest in making money or impressing people with fancy transitions.
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post #10 of 58 Old 07-13-2011, 09:53 AM
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Mark I got rid of my Vegas Movie Studio v11 install since it had the clickity bug and just took up space; and, as Vegas 10e fixed all my bug issues I discovered to date, (added the annoying work flow with burning and rendering in one operation) I saw no use for VMS v11. The only reason I bought VMS v10 was to use the 5.1 work around which got me through several projects at the time.
There are lots of "professional" features I, as an amateur will use in Vegas Pro so VMS v11 has real value to me. But I believe many will find what it does offer just right to meet their budget. No amateur will ever ( I believe) be interested in Closed Caption or multicam switching) but there are some pro tools in Vegas Pro and the higher bit rates that I agree should be included) maybe some day they will. Come to think of it most newbies to any of this 3D stuff have no interest in editing their video at all. It's the professionals who maybe are budget strapped that complain about not having broadcast stuff in the consumer product. Right?

Now I don't recall about the restricted bandwidth on the render template and I know quite a few amateurs who would be interested in that restriction but it seems to me if as an amateur you want the pro tools, then you'll need to buy the pro tools. Heck I know one guy who bought a Cine Alta HDCAM with lenses because he could. He just plays. I kid him that he makes believe he is a news paparazzi. he lets me know that no paparazzi could afford a Cine Alta. :G Heck, most TV stations can't afford a Cine Alta.
We buy what we need that we can afford. Bellyaching about it ain't gonna change the price.

I'm rambling and I need to make some progress on my next video so Back to work Don!


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post #11 of 58 Old 07-13-2011, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Don is correct that for creating a 3D bluray iso from the TD10 3D files, Vegas Platinum 11 can do the job. However, there is one big difference - the maximum bitrate for either 108024p or 72060p blu-ray iso's is 10Mbps in Platinum and there is no ability to change that.
Mark: This is not true. I just reinstalled VMS v11 to verify what you said, I had no problem at all selecting the 25 Mbit in the template selection for rendering and burning.
I do believe it is like we had in v10d of Vegas Pro. You have to select the MVC template and then customize it and it will show up in the BluRay burn selection. The maximum bit rate is 25,000,000 just like Vegas Pro. (RTFM)


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post #12 of 58 Old 07-14-2011, 12:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Are there any prefered settings in Vegas that people like to use for creating their 3d blu's? I mean I use the basic settings above which work great, I can now create my own discs as I wanted, the only issue I have is that they are rendered to 24p from the 50/60 that the cam records it at, the main issue I have is slightly odd motion when panning, much like the films I have on blu at 24p, the Fox logo is one example where this happens, its a little bit juddery, same as the Universal logo, this is what i'm seeing on the created disc from Vegas.

I know its probably made the disc correctly but are there any settings to maybe make it that bit smoother? I'm going to try a 720p60 disc from Vegas and see what thats like, I realize for fast motion thats better than 24p but there will also be a hit in the resolution.

Any ideas?
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post #13 of 58 Old 07-14-2011, 01:20 AM
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"Mark: This is not true. I just reinstalled VMS v11 to verify what you said, I had no problem at all selecting the 25 Mbit in the template selection for rendering and burning.
I do believe it is like we had in v10d of Vegas Pro. You have to select the MVC template and then customize it and it will show up in the BluRay burn selection. The maximum bit rate is 25,000,000 just like Vegas Pro. (RTFM) "

I stand corrected. Don, thanks for investigating.

To recapitulate for others: the standard template for an MVC iso burn has 10 Mbps, not changeable. However, you can create your own template with up to a 25Mbps limit. In the specs for the software, ony listed burning limit at 10Mbps; I believed them, especially when I saw the mvc bluray template.

I agree that Vegas Platinum 11 is a real bargain for 3D editing and video creation.
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post #14 of 58 Old 07-14-2011, 01:46 AM
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emporer- I prefer this rule of thumb-

When my program has lots of scene movement, I will render 720 60P 25Mbit

When my program is mostly static with small image action I select 1080 24p 25Mbit

If you selected the 24p rendering because you were unsure and when you watch your image is mostly blurry, then redo with the 720 60p.

Another setting I like to use is 1 second keyframing. The default is faster rendering but less accurate between the keyframes.


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post #15 of 58 Old 07-14-2011, 07:06 AM
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I agree that Vegas Platinum 11 is a real bargain for 3D editing and video creation.

Yes, and for many if they would just learn to follow the proper work path their trouble will be over. You are doing some amazing work with that netbook. I would have never thought that possible.
Also, keep in mind, I only bought VMS to resolve the original Vegas 10d audio bug as it was part of the proven work around. Now with that fixed in V10e I have no use for VMS as it's feature set in editing is much too limited for what I like to do. There is no reason to have it taking up space on my system so I keep it only in the exe file to reinstall if necessary. I may reload it when someone makes a claim I think is wrong, just if I'm not sure but otherwise, it stays in the download folder.

Personally, I suspect there are some conflict issues with the DVDA versions from both the Pro and the VMS too and maybe an install conflict with Vegas as well but that's all I'm going to comment on because I haven't put that suspicion through the paces. I've just observed some peculiar behavior with both installed. As I'm not in the business of product testing, my solution to that is to just keep VMS off my system when running Vegas Pro 10e or DVDA 5.2 for work.


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post #16 of 58 Old 07-14-2011, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so i've created a test disc at 720p50, much better, cant really notice any real difference to 1080p24 on my 50 inch plasma with regards to the resolution drop and the difference in motion is much better, I think i'll be using this for my discs from now on.

My question now is that ive installed dvda pro 5.2, all good and working but it still throws up the ac-3 unavailable error in Vegas when I try and create the image. So far ive used the wave64 for 2.0 pcm, only now realised I can do it in 5.1 pcm so will try a 3dbd in 5.1 pcm and see if its good, to be honest its not much difference in file size anyway and if the 3dbd spec allows it then i'll stick with it, thats if it works!
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post #17 of 58 Old 07-14-2011, 02:35 PM
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ac3 plugin- Go to your help menu and select about Vegas Pro and select the components tab. You should see under file I/O two DLL files with the name ac3 in them. Copy and paste that to the thread here and let me see what you have.

In the meantime look at the path for the dll file and see if the path is correct to those files. You should reboot after the DVDA install too. Then when you boot Vegas Pro it should find the File I/O path for the plugins. Something is mighty strange about all the trouble you're having.


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post #18 of 58 Old 07-14-2011, 11:55 PM - Thread Starter
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I think ive sorted it now, I looked into the ac3 plugin dir from that components tab, it was all in there, I tried activating it with the .exe but it threw up an error, so I went to the dvda dir and copied the contents of the ac3 plugin dir from there to the Vegas ac3 dir and activated it fine, just currently rendering a test disc now so hopefully it should be fine. I did do a test disc last night with 5.1 pcm and it worked just fine but obviously ac3 for file size purposes is good.
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post #19 of 58 Old 07-15-2011, 11:53 AM
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Great- I felt you could decipher from that resource how to fix it. It appears something you did in the install prevented the plugin from being put into the proper folder. You should be on the lookout for this in the future if you add plugins and they don't show up.


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post #20 of 58 Old 07-16-2011, 12:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been reading about using the GPU accel can cause artefacts and blocking etc. I had a google and a poke around in Vegas but can't see any option for it, is it on or off by default?
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post #21 of 58 Old 07-17-2011, 07:04 AM
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Open up your render as template custom and look to the bottom. Encoder is by default Use CPU only. You can change it to GPU if available. If you have the new cuda GPU it should use that and speed up your rendering. Don't have that here but that is where you change it.


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post #22 of 58 Old 07-19-2011, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Landis View Post

Mark: This is not true. I just reinstalled VMS v11 to verify what you said, I had no problem at all selecting the 25 Mbit in the template selection for rendering and burning.
I do believe it is like we had in v10d of Vegas Pro. You have to select the MVC template and then customize it and it will show up in the BluRay burn selection. The maximum bit rate is 25,000,000 just like Vegas Pro. (RTFM)

This has been a very informative thread. I wonder if you could provide us an edited version of the original Idiot's Guide you posted based upon the consumer version of Vegas Platinum HD v11 (which I assume is the same thing as Vegas Movie Studio v11?) instead of the pro version that the OP has?

I just shot a friend's wedding with my Sony 3D camcorder and it plays great when the camera is attached to my Panasonic 3D TV. However, I'm sure the wedding couple would love to have a 3D copy of their own and I'd like to get them one on a blu-ray disc in the most economical way possible.

(By the way I couldn't help but smile and recall the post on this board from the poster who was trying out his Sony 3D camcorder in China when I caught my granddaughters who were the flower girls running around the grass after the ceremony blowing bubbles at each other with the supplied bubble solution that had been handed out to the guests as an alternative to throwing rice. The fellow poster had commented on how the typical 3D promo clip would have an obligatory scene with children blowing bubbles and how it was ironic that one of the first scenes he had a chance to capture were kids in China blowing bubbles.)
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post #23 of 58 Old 07-26-2011, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emporer View Post

Are there any prefered settings in Vegas that people like to use for creating their 3d blu's? I mean I use the basic settings above which work great, I can now create my own discs as I wanted, the only issue I have is that they are rendered to 24p from the 50/60 that the cam records it at, the main issue I have is slightly odd motion when panning, much like the films I have on blu at 24p, the Fox logo is one example where this happens, its a little bit juddery, same as the Universal logo, this is what i'm seeing on the created disc from Vegas.

I know its probably made the disc correctly but are there any settings to maybe make it that bit smoother? I'm going to try a 720p60 disc from Vegas and see what thats like, I realize for fast motion thats better than 24p but there will also be a hit in the resolution.

Any ideas?

Right now I think making mvc files are a waste of time when the best you can do with 1920x1080 is 24p. Looks ghastly on my Panasonic 3d tv. On the other hand I dont like resorting to 720 to get 60p.
here is what I have been doing.
I dont know if this is a better Idea or not.
As my tv uses side by side format I have been just converting them to that, untill MVC 1920x1080 60p comes along. Here is what I use in Vegas Pro...

New Project: Template / Custom (1920x1080, 29.970 fps): Stereoscopic 3D mode / Side by side (half): Full-resolution :quality: Best
Insert movie, do your edits
File: Render-as: Save as type / SonyAVC/MVC (*.mp4,mt2s,*avc): Template / HD 1920x1080-60p
(Media Info: Saved as 24Mbps 1920x1080 at 59.94 fps)
New Project: Template: HD 1080-60i (1920x1080, 29.970 fps) :Stereoscopic 3D mode / Off: Full-resolution quality: Best
load new side by side movie
Tools / Burn Disc / Blu-ray disc.
Render image and burn: Video format/ MainConcept MPeg-2: Video template/ Blu-ray 1920x1080-60i, 25Mbps video stream

The videos seem to work out nice enough
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post #24 of 58 Old 07-27-2011, 02:14 AM
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untill MVC 1920x1080 60p comes along.

Don't hold your breath; it's not going to happen anytime soon.

Please, feel free to call me by my first name, Petri.
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post #25 of 58 Old 08-02-2011, 07:25 PM
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I'm afraid you've found your first idiot. I mostly understand what you've posted but I'm missing one important piece: What (3D) project setting are you using when you render? Or, are you not even going into the custom settings?

I've spent over a week trying to get video shot with my new TD10 to burn to a HD BD in 3D - using Vegas Pro and/or DVD Architect. No matter which settings I've used so far, the video doesn't play in 3D. I'm using a PS3 to go via my Denon to a new Samsung 3D plasma.

Help? Thanks!
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post #26 of 58 Old 08-02-2011, 09:55 PM
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Trouble shooting steps:

1. First make sure your PS3 can play a 3D BD on your monitor with hdmi wired through your Denon AVR using a known commercial 3D BD Hollywood title.

2. Launch Vegas 10e: You set the 3D "on" in the File/Properties by selecting Stereoscopic 3D mode to one of the settings. This is not important to be the same as your renderiong output but rather a 3D setting you can see on your computer monitor. I suggest you set this to "anaglyph red/cyan" as this will show any 3D video placed on the timeline in a red and cyan outline in the preview window.
3. Place a 3D video clip "filename.m2ts" on the timeline. continue to place clips as desired and edit them together using conventional Vegas video editing procedure.
4. Now select a region of the timeline to render.
5. Open the Tools/ Burn Disk/Blu-Ray Disk and select any of the MVC templates for 3D rendering. Name a file and location to render the "filename.iso" click OK and render.
6. When complete, go back into File/ properties and set stereoscopic 3D mode to off.
7. Now open tools/ Burn disk/Blu_ray disk and select Burn to existing image file. insert a blank BD-R and begin to burn the disk with the rendered iso image.


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post #27 of 58 Old 08-03-2011, 09:54 AM
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Thank you Don. With your idiot's guide this idiot finally made some progress. I followed your trouble shooting steps and actually ended up with a 3D BD that I was able to view on my Samsung P59 3D TV. That's the good news.

The not so good news is the picture wasn't always clear; about 75% of the clip was blurry, particularly when the camera panned (but it was a pretty slow pan). And the 3D wasn't crackerjack 3D, i.e. not a lot of depth to it - but - I am aware of a few things I can do to try to tweak that more to my expectations.

I rendered a single, short and simple clip using MVC 1920x1080-24p; I hate to lose the higher resolution but I'll try it at MVC 1280x720-60p just to see if there's a difference in perceived quality.

By the by, I thought the DVD Architect Pro that came with the TD-10 was supposed to burn 3D BD (with menus if you wanted them). Is that so? If so, have you tried it and do you have an idiot's guide to using that too?

Thanks again for your help!!!
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post #28 of 58 Old 08-03-2011, 11:34 AM
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DVDA 5.2 will burn BluRay disks and if your 3D is in SBS half resolution you can do a 3D program but that BD will not be automatically sensed in the monitor as 3D. You will have to manually select SBS to play it.

There is no point in rendering to 1080 24P 1920 to achieve higher resolution if your shooting was blurred out due to camera motion. If your camera motion was smooth and steady you may get better quality, including resolution by rendering your BluRay iso file at 720p x 1280. The higher frame rate will sharpen up your picture and that sharper picture will display higher pixel resolution than one that is too blurry but rendered to 1080 24p 1920. If you must render to 24p, I suggest you stick with tripod mounted static images with no camera movement. Every video shoot will be different and you will always want to experiment to determine the best rendering for highest quality. The numbers don't always mean higher quality. Learn to trust your eyes for a change.


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post #29 of 58 Old 08-06-2011, 06:33 PM
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Again, thanks for the advice, Don. No, I don't need 24p. I rendered the same file at 720 60p and the visual quality is much better on the TV. I'm still not getting crackerjack 3D but I obviously need to experiment with shooting different subject matter under different lighting, distances, etc.

Thanks for sharing your time and knowledge with us.
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post #30 of 58 Old 09-02-2011, 07:26 PM
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I need more education please, probably a very simple step by step as I'm 3D stupid.

Okay, I bought and installed a Quadro 4000 card. I have my Acer HN274H 3D monitor. I'm using my new Sony TD10 3D camcorder. I've got the NVIDIA 3D software and 3D Vision installed.

Before I even attempt to do any 3D editing in Vegas Pro 10 I've been trying to use any 3D video file and actually be able to preview it in 3D using the Acer as an external monitor.

I think I've done all the obvious things, e.g. yes, I've got the Acer set to a 3D resolution and I have the external display in Vegas Pro set to 3D left and right.

But I'm still not seeing a 3D preview.

What can I try next? Thanks in advance!
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